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tamagotchi

Baltimore to Des Moines, what a blast

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In preparation to US cruiser line split, I decided to spent all my camos and flags to grind to Des Moines. I was at New Orleans when I started, the grind was quite painful as both New Orleans and Baltimore are not the most enjoyable ships to play. Then I got Des Moines. My goodness, I just couldn't believe how much better it is when comparing to Baltimore. It's rate of fire is almost doubled and the shear volume of fire is just terrifying. It's not the first time I got a tier 10 ship, but in all other case (I previously unlocked Gearing, Grozovoi and Zao), I couldn't really bring myself to start playing those ships (which involves retraining commander, grinding extra skill points, etc.), as they don't look too different from their predecessor. But the case of Baltimore / Des Moines is completely different, as I'd never contemplate playing Baltimore again when I can just take Des Moines for a ride. So my advice: if you are also grinding the US cruiser line at the moment and if you don't like the ships you're in, don't give up, as Des Moines certainly worth the effort.

 

P.S. I'm also interested to know if there is any other line having this massive improvement happening at T9 -> T10.

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Don't have any T9's yet, but I've heard that the Japanese cruisers are similar. Ibuki is said to be quiet bad, but Zao is a monster of a ship. Someone else will have to elaborate on this.

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@tamagotchi my take on this:-

 

Baltimore to Des Moines is a really nice upgrade, the US cruisers after (current) Cleveland are rather uninspiring until Des Moines.

Minotaur is a nice upgrade from Neptune, not as dramatic as the US lines, but noticeable.

Donskoi to Moskva I found a bit disappointing as Moskva is actually rather boring (it's good, but dull) and lacks torpedoes.

Roon to Hindenberg isn't a massive jump as Roon plays really well, but Hindenberg is a real gem when you get to grips with how to play it effectively.

No comment on the IJN line, I gave up after finishing Myoko grind and I just don't enjoy them, guess they just don't suit me.

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3 minutes ago, hgbn_dk said:

Baltimore is a great ship, actually more durable than Des Moines

 

Depends what you want out of a cruiser, certainly Baltimore is fairly tough, but it handles like an overloaded barge and its guns are underwhelming. OK if you've got a good campsite and targets obligingly in range and spotted.

Thing is personal taste is a big factor in this type of discussion, there's no absolute right or wrong. 

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9 minutes ago, BeauNidl3 said:

 

Depends what you want out of a cruiser, certainly Baltimore is fairly tough, but it handles like an overloaded barge and its guns are underwhelming. OK if you've got a good campsite and targets obligingly in range and spotted.

Thing is personal taste is a big factor in this type of discussion, there's no absolute right or wrong. 

Agree some people think some ships are garbage Other thinks the same ships as very strong ships. Its all a matter of taste. I like US cruiser but don't like Russian.

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51 minutes ago, tamagotchi said:

P.S. I'm also interested to know if there is any other line having this massive improvement happening at T9 -> T10.

German DD: the massive difference in hydro-range and also having two forward facing turrets is remarkable

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16 minutes ago, principat121 said:

German DD: the massive difference in hydro-range and also having two forward facing turrets is remarkable

 

True, I limited my comments to cruisers as the OP was talking about them specifically, but there are a few in DD's that stand out both plus and minus.

 

Z46 to Z52 - Significant improvement in gun layout and hydro range.

Yugumo to Shimakaze - This is a tricky one that some will disagree with and the upcoming detection improvement to Shima will change this. Currently I'd argue that Yugumo plays better than Shima in many circumstances as it has far better detection so cap contests much better and faster torpedo reload, Shima of course has a lot of very hard hitting torpedoes, it currently feels like a sidegrade.

Fletcher to Gearing - Gearing has a better gun layout for knife fighting, but way slower torpedo reload (much longer range of course) and it handles a bit poorly by comparison and it's a big ship. Many feel it's a downgrade from Fletcher and I can see why.

Udaloi to Grozevoi - It's plain better in my book, clear upgrade. Can't comment on Tashkent to Khaba, not played that line.

PA DD's I'm only at Chung Mu (which plays really well, but it is the Fletcher after all) so not able to comment.

 

BB's and CV's aren't really my thing although Conqueror feels better than Lion did.

 

 

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1 hour ago, tamagotchi said:

 

 

P.S. I'm also interested to know if there is any other line having this massive improvement happening at T9 -> T10.

Ibuki to Zao for sure, also Friedrich der Grosse to Kurfurst and Tashkent to Khabaravosk.

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I too find baltimore to be almost as good as the des moines....so good in fact, I managed to get in the top 10 with it....I can't understand how people can hate it so much compared to DM when the only true difference is their reload. But I guess everybody has their preferences.

 

But if you're talking about massive improvements from tier 9 to 10:

Izumo->Yamato

Ibuki->Zao

Friedrich->Kurfurst

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12 minutes ago, BeauNidl3 said:

 

True, I limited my comments to cruisers as the OP was talking about them specifically, but there are a few in DD's that stand out both plus and minus.

 

Z46 to Z52 - Significant improvement in gun layout and hydro range.

Yugumo to Shimakaze - This is a tricky one that some will disagree with and the upcoming detection improvement to Shima will change this. Currently I'd argue that Yugumo plays better than Shima in many circumstances as it has far better detection so cap contests much better and faster torpedo reload, Shima of course has a lot of very hard hitting torpedoes, it currently feels like a sidegrade.

Fletcher to Gearing - Gearing has a better gun layout for knife fighting, but way slower torpedo reload (much longer range of course) and it handles a bit poorly by comparison and it's a big ship. Many feel it's a downgrade from Fletcher and I can see why.

Udaloi to Grozevoi - It's plain better in my book, clear upgrade. Can't comment on Tashkent to Khaba, not played that line.

PA DD's I'm only at Chung Mu (which plays really well, but it is the Fletcher after all) so not able to comment.

 

BB's and CV's aren't really my thing although Conqueror feels better than Lion did.

 

 

This is very comprehensive, thanks! Regarding Grozevoi, do you take the full concealment build or rudder-shift+AFT? I took the later combination on Udaloi, which is not bad but does loose more often when contesting caps. As grovevoi has better base concealment, I am tempted to play it as a conventional DD (so full-concealment build), but just couldn't make up my mind

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1 minute ago, tamagotchi said:

This is very comprehensive, thanks! Regarding Grozevoi, do you take the full concealment build or rudder-shift+AFT? I took the later combination on Udaloi, which is not bad but does loose more often when contesting caps. As grovevoi has better base concealment, I am tempted to play it as a conventional DD (so full-concealment build), but just couldn't make up my mind

 

For me I go concealment torpedo boat with nice guns as a backup, but that's another matter of taste. Just finished a game where I admit I bullied a Udaloi with lousy concealment in my Grozevoi.

I'm more of a torpedo centric DD driver than a gunboat expert.

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8 minutes ago, domen3 said:

I too find baltimore to be almost as good as the des moines....so good in fact, I managed to get in the top 10 with it....I can't understand how people can hate it so much compared to DM when the only true difference is their reload. But I guess everybody has their preferences.

I wouldn't say Baltimore is bad, but I find it situational as it needs a sensible team to perform well. In fact, my games in Baltimore are rather polarised: I either end up in the top 3 or with some abysmal results, but rarely have a 'so-so' game. Because of its poor rate of fire, I find it difficult to play when the entire team decided to slug it out in open water and/or when no one bothered to shoot at the enemies DDs I detected. 

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1 hour ago, hgbn_dk said:

Baltimore is a great ship, actually more durable than Des Moines

 

How so? Balti is coated in 27mm armor which means the slightest graze from BB guns is going to cause ludicrous damage except when you meet one that has 380mm guns. DM at least has a 30mm deck to bounce 406mm shells.

 

Don't get me wrong, I liked the Balti very much, but I wouldn't describe her as durable.

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I found Baltimore and Des Moines to play surprisingly differently.

 

Baltimore I'd set up for maximum fire rate and then play right around radar/concealment range. Gun range is very short but it doesn't matter, because you'll play even closer. Sneak in for a nice broadside target, and the guns are anything but "underwhelming" (one post above).

 

Des Moines I'll play from much further out and rely more on WASD-dodging that stealth. Although the option of sneaking into radar range is there when needed.

 

Both are great, great ships.

 

 

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I use range upgrade on my Baltimore to take the worst bite off poor range. It require of cause a good aim with those long time floating shells. I hope they don't nerf it to much when moving it down a tier.

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2 hours ago, tamagotchi said:

It's not the first time I got a tier 10 ship, but in all other case (I previously unlocked Gearing, Grozovoi and Zao), I couldn't really bring myself to start playing those ships (which involves retraining commander, grinding extra skill points, etc.), as they don't look too different from their predecessor.

You are strange :Smile_honoring: Or, well, at least your opinion is strange, to me at least :cap_wander:

 

No, seriously.

1. Zao. I must admit I skipped t9 entirely so I can't really comment from personal experience, but I've heard awful stuff about IJN t9 cruiser. While I'm certain it's - to some degree - a matter of personal taste, Zao seems to be considered one of the biggest t9->10 leaps in the game by many

2. Gearing. There are plenty people who prefer Fletcher over Gearing - but you might be the first one saying that they don't look different from each other. Fletcher has much more emphasis on her torps while Gearing is much more gun-focused (but, on the other hand, equipped with the longest USABLE torps in the game - so if you see something, you can torp it). These are two different ships with different playstyle - to the point that they probably should each receive own captain with a different build.

3. Grozovoi. Oh boy, I left the best one for the end :Smile_teethhappy:. Basically, Grozovoi is COMPLETELY different from her predecessor. In almost every way I can imagine.

 - Grozovoi is an all-purpose destroyer. She has 2*5 reasonably fast 10km torps that allow her to play a torpedo boat. She has concealment on par with Gearing and Shimakaze* (she's the least stealthy of the three, but the other two have less than 100 meters advantage BEFORE it shrinks even more with camo, skills and modules). With great guns positioned offensively (2/3 firepower facing ahead) on a fast, stealthy platform, Grozovoi is a good DD killer, good scout, reasonable torpboat and decent russian-style gunboat with great AA and AA consumable. Basically, the ultimate jack of all trades with flexibility to fill any role depending on the team's needs.

 - Udaloi is crap a gunboat that doesn't get outspotted only by Khabarovsk and Tashkent (the latter has only 200m worse base concealment though), is marginally (0,5kn) faster than Grozovoi and generally plays like a slow, undergunned Khabarovsk the role of long-range gunboat, utilizing great shell velocity and good speed to make up for having bad concealment and being a big target. She's a Russian gunboat through-and-through and if what you enjoy is this kind of gameplay... then you're probably in the wrong fork of USSR DD line, because you'd most likely have a blast with the queen of this playstyle: the one and only Khabarovsk. :Smile-_tongue: Even the AA isn't really similar with Grozovoi - Udaloi can mount defensive AA, yes, but she just lacks the raw AA power that lets her t10 sister be an actual threat to enemy aviation.

 

Long story short - I'm pretty sure you should re-evaluate the  "not too different" assessment of the t10s you mentioned... at the very least in case of Grozovoi that I have quite a bit of practical experience with. I can't guarantee that you'll like her but what I am 100% certain of is that she's a completely different kind of DD compared to her predecessor.

 

*Shimakaze is getting a huge stealth buff the next patch, so she'll become the most stealthy t10 (and by a significant margin, even over Yueyang) - still, for now she has the same concealment as Gearing.

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34 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Long story short - I'm pretty sure you should re-evaluate the  "not too different" assessment of the t10s you mentioned... at the very least in case of Grozovoi that I have quite a bit of practical experience with. I can't guarantee that you'll like her but what I am 100% certain of is that she's a completely different kind of DD compared to her predecessor.

 

*Shimakaze is getting a huge stealth buff the next patch, so she'll become the most stealthy t10 (and by a significant margin, even over Yueyang) - still, for now she has the same concealment as Gearing.

Well it's true I didn't make myself clear. By 'not too different', I meant I couldn't see the T10 ship being straight more powerful than the T9 counterpart. In the cases of Grozevoi (if taking the concealment build, which I think I should try now:) and Gearing, it feels more like an 'alternate branch' instead of a direct upgrade. In the case of Zao, the parameters are indeed better than Ibuki, but at least on paper it didn't feel like a drastic improvement (unlike, say, doubling the fire rate). I have't bought Zao yet (still waiting for a discount) so cannot really comment, but I must say Ibuki is not bad. I played it as a long range support ship (read: HE spammer with occasional APs punishing broadside cruisers) and it felt alight - not exceptional, but fine.

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4 minutes ago, tamagotchi said:

Well it's true I didn't make myself clear. By 'not too different', I meant I couldn't see the T10 ship being straight more powerful than the T9 counterpart. In the cases of Grozevoi (if taking the concealment build, which I think I should try now:) and Gearing, it feels more like an 'alternate branch' instead of a direct upgrade.

I certainly advise a concealment build for Grozovoi, yes - she just doesn't have Khaba's speed OR firepower to play the USSR pure gunboat style.

As for straight upgrade... well, I could argue, I guess. I mean, Grozovoi seems like she COULD play like Udaloi - she's on par with her predecessor in things Udaloi does well... only she also does well plenty other things :cap_rambo:

 

But I might be not objective here. For me both t9 USSR DDs were EXTREMELY painful. I ended up giving up on the grind in both and skipping the rest with freeXP - and both Khaba and Grozovoi proved to be quite a lot to my liking despite being completely different. Udaloi might be more like Khaba than like Grozovoi, but she's clearly inferior (in my opinion at least) to the former. And since I consider Grozovoi very different but roughly equivalent in power to Khaba, the "kinda Khaba but worse" Udaloi also registers for me as strictly worse than Grozovoi :Smile-_tongue: And I have my abysmal stats in her to prove it :Smile_teethhappy:

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Wow, so much "hate" for Udaloy. I guess she's one of the most underestimated ships in this game.

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7 hours ago, tamagotchi said:

In preparation to US cruiser line split, I decided to spent all my camos and flags to grind to Des Moines. I was at New Orleans when I started, the grind was quite painful as both New Orleans and Baltimore are not the most enjoyable ships to play. Then I got Des Moines. My goodness, I just couldn't believe how much better it is when comparing to Baltimore. It's rate of fire is almost doubled and the shear volume of fire is just terrifying. It's not the first time I got a tier 10 ship, but in all other case (I previously unlocked Gearing, Grozovoi and Zao), I couldn't really bring myself to start playing those ships (which involves retraining commander, grinding extra skill points, etc.), as they don't look too different from their predecessor. But the case of Baltimore / Des Moines is completely different, as I'd never contemplate playing Baltimore again when I can just take Des Moines for a ride. So my advice: if you are also grinding the US cruiser line at the moment and if you don't like the ships you're in, don't give up, as Des Moines certainly worth the effort.

 

P.S. I'm also interested to know if there is any other line having this massive improvement happening at T9 -> T10.

If I was forced to have only one ship in this game it would be the Des Moines.

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Talking from my own perspective. I highly liked the US cruiser grind. Until Pepsi. From that, for me, abomination things got downhill exponentially. IIRC it took be about a year and a half to whip myself through Baltiless to Des Citadenes. Don't start: MY Des Moines is a floating citadel with automated tennis ball shooters. So; indeed a "blast" for me as well. Only on the absolute opposite POV as you mean (I guess), OP. I truly can't wait for the US cruiser split NOT to play them at all....

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