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[0.7.4 PT-2] Ships rendering and visibility

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Dear commanders!

 

As you already know, we are evaluating a fix for the ship rendering issue as part of 0.7.4 public test. The deal is, that the ships may appear in the 3D world with a 2-3 second delay after they appear on the minimap, or even after ships’ accompanying effects (funnel smoke, as an example) are rendered. This is dependent on the server and game client interaction. The server informs the client that a ship is spotted and then the client interprets that data and shows that ship on the minimap as well as a 3D model with its effects. As a result several factors influence the rendering process – game optimization and environment in which it is ran –players’ PC configuration, their connection quality and stability.

 

We had to collect as much data and feedback as possible during the public test, so we could be sure about our solution. As expected, the 3D models did in fact appear simultaneously with the effects and minimap icons, however, in some cases, the information could lack in timeliness and actuality by the moment it was displayed. And from the gameplay perspective this is undesirable side effect.

 

That’s why for the second session of our public test we improved upon the solution that you’ve seen. The rendering of models and effects now happens at the same time, but the minimap display is working the same way it did in the 0.7.3 version. This fix only takes care of a part of the issue, yet it does not create any unwanted side effects. If it shows stability during the public test and causes no further issues, that is exactly the way we’re going to implement it into the update.

 

We are already working on the optimization of ships’, effects rendering and minimap display as a complex, to absolutely minimize any delays between these instances. We plan the next round of fixes in a few updates, and just like before, we will be very appreciative of your feedback.

 

Thank you for your understanding!:Smile_izmena:

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Hi WG.

 

You say you're fixing the ships rendering and visual on detection etc, don't make me laugh in all battles i've played in tests 1-2 ship still don't show within their detection ranges or when voice alert say there's a ship and even when a spotter plane is up and that's a big joke a spotter plane that dont see the ships within 5.km to map boarder, so nothing has changed to what you have said you have done.

 

On playing a battle i get a voice warning about a ship spotted on the horizon no ship is seen, no ship appears on the minimap so wich has been like that all the time and even when the enemy ships are seen and well inside their detection range they intermittently disappear when they should not thus making accurate shooting and hits so you have not fixed a thing.

 

Detection should be based on real horizon detection ie the higher the further you see and also based on a ships crows nest as the highest lookout point on any ship of war and saying that a battleship with a 100.ft lookout nest will see a destroyer before the destroyer see the battleship with a lookout nest of 40.ft, that true detection.

 

An example below of horizon height to distance plus links to further info on how far you see to what height you are at.  

 

For an observer on the ground with eye level at h = 5 ft 7 in (1.70 m), the horizon is at a distance of 2.9 miles (4.7 km). For an observer standing on a hill or tower 100 feet (30 m) in height, the horizon is at a distance of 12.2 miles (19.6 km).

Horizon - Wikipedia

 
I have mentioned this in the suggestion threads which i doubt you lot never read.
 

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Sailing Hamster
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30 minutes ago, Jessa_Doom said:

Hi WG.

 

You say you're fixing the ships rendering and visual on detection etc, don't make me laugh in all battles i've played in tests 1-2 ship still don't show within their detection ranges or when voice alert say there's a ship and even when a spotter plane is up and that's a big joke a spotter plane that dont see the ships within 5.km to map boarder, so nothing has changed to what you have said you have done.

 

On playing a battle i get a voice warning about a ship spotted on the horizon no ship is seen, no ship appears on the minimap so wich has been like that all the time and even when the enemy ships are seen and well inside their detection range they intermittently disappear when they should not thus making accurate shooting and hits so you have not fixed a thing.

 

Detection should be based on real horizon detection ie the higher the further you see and also based on a ships crows nest as the highest lookout point on any ship of war and saying that a battleship with a 100.ft lookout nest will see a destroyer before the destroyer see the battleship with a lookout nest of 40.ft, that true detection.

 

An example below of horizon height to distance plus links to further info on how far you see to what height you are at.  

 

For an observer on the ground with eye level at h = 5 ft 7 in (1.70 m), the horizon is at a distance of 2.9 miles (4.7 km). For an observer standing on a hill or tower 100 feet (30 m) in height, the horizon is at a distance of 12.2 miles (19.6 km).

Horizon - Wikipedia

 
I have mentioned this in the suggestion threads which i doubt you lot never read.
 

You do realise sub has addressed exactly this and said the first version of PTS will be changed again? Have you read the post?

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8 hours ago, Earl_of_Northesk said:

You do realise sub has addressed exactly this and said the first version of PTS will be changed again? Have you read the post?

FYI! I did read the post when it was first put up and played on with the second round of test.

 

After getting a survey asking me about the detection changes and spotting and after a small test update i thought they would fix the thing they were putting in the tester on what they said.

 

But they DID NOT and if they had for the testing then why say they are still working on it and give us an incomplete test to try that is still no different to the last round of test from 7.3. 

 

SO THAT'S WHY I POSTED WHAT I SAID.

 

 

 

 

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Hi DEALCOI  & WG.

 

This is exactly what i get all the time ships within detection range not showing X-FILES more like the PHILADELPHIA EXPERIMENT or the Klingon empire. were fighting warships not Klingon Birds of Pray

 

COM'ON WG ships within a few Km's seen for a couple seconds and then not visible DO YOU KNOW THE MEANING OF RENDERING.    

 

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4 hours ago, DEALCOI said:

WHAT?

shot-18_04.27_23_09.15-0498.thumb.jpg.6ddf9bcad80d0a8887ff829653af8067.jpg

shot-18_04.27_23_09.58-0425.thumb.jpg.d51e6fedb018cb6d9673a12e531b3997.jpg

X-FILES

 

It's a known bug - that's his last spotted location -> normally it would be gray outline, but sometimes it retains its red markings. Infuriating, I know. Don't worry, the ship is (most likely) not actually there

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7 hours ago, Jessa_Doom said:

[...] Klingon Birds of Pray [...]

offtopic: Sorry i had to laugh here: I dont think that the Klingons actually pray. Klingons dont pray, they fight!!! :cap_viking::cap_rambo: :fish_boom: 

 

:Smile_Default:

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2 hours ago, blindhai said:

offtopic: Sorry i had to laugh here: I dont think that the Klingons actually pray. Klingons dont pray, they fight!!! :cap_viking::cap_rambo: :fish_boom: 

 

:Smile_Default:

Hi Matey  Ops! miss spelt that it's should be Bird of prey then :Smile_facepalm: 

 

Though the way detection and rendering is in this game maybe we should be fighting cloaked Klingon Birds of Preys.  

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3 hours ago, Jessa_Doom said:

Hi Matey  Ops! miss spelt that it's should be Bird of prey then :Smile_facepalm: 

 

Though the way detection and rendering is in this game maybe we should be fighting cloaked Klingon Birds of Preys.  

No harm done, i couldnt hold on me to make a little joke here. :D

 

I personally dont have this issue, but i hope it will get fixed for you. :)

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How about me being shooted by a kiev, 2 salvos before ship rendering(yes from same place, no smoke no nothing, 10 km of ocean)? Not on minimap, on screen. How about detected by airplane and no airplane on air. Or airplanes can invisispot me ?

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46 minutes ago, argoteck said:

How about detected by airplane and no airplane on air. Or airplanes can invisispot me ?

You (and your allies) spot airplanes at 8km from your ships (and, of course, see all that others have spotted)

At the same time planes can see 11km, floatplane spotters even get that to 15km.

 

That's when it comes down to your ships air detectability. If your ship (BB I presume?) can be airdetected from more than 8km distance planes will see you before you see those planes.

 

50 minutes ago, argoteck said:

How about me being shooted by a kiev, 2 salvos before ship rendering(yes from same place, no smoke no nothing, 10 km of ocean)?

With a reload time of 4....5 seconds depending on Kievs setup... She shows up on your minimap as soon as she fires the 1st salvo, and then normally you'd see her on yours screen about half-way through that reload. I guess your PC was a little bit slow on that one

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1 hour ago, argoteck said:

How about me being shooted by a kiev, 2 salvos before ship rendering(yes from same place, no smoke no nothing, 10 km of ocean)? Not on minimap, on screen. How about detected by airplane and no airplane on air. Or airplanes can invisispot me ?

I agree matey i've been telling WG about detection wither it's rendering or otherwise for nearly a year now they are not listening'

 

Getting BB less than 10.km not seen and what i think is worse you are 10-15.km away from an island you can see the buildings on the island but not the BB sailing in front of them, COM'ON WG fix this.

 

WG go out on the sea in the real world sail around for a day and see what ships you can see at what distances and with or without binoculars then come back and put that what you've seen into practice.  

 

I'm betting you no ships disappear at all sizes at all distances, it not graphic cards or game settings it's how stupid your mechanics are.       

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1 hour ago, Jessa_Doom said:

Getting BB less than 10.km not seen

List of BBs who have 10km or lower concealment (at max concealment build)

  • Mikasa (9.61km)
  • Kawachi (7.96km)
  • Nassau (8.71km)
  • Konig Albert (9.61km)
  • Turenne (9.46km)

Much list, such wow. Also note how none of those is higher than tier 3

 

 

Also give it a rest already, none of your arguments (at least the ones that I've seen) have made any sense at any point :fish_palm:

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8 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

List of BBs who have 10km or lower concealment (at max concealment build)

  • Mikasa (9.61km)
  • Kawachi (7.96km)
  • Nassau (8.71km)
  • Konig Albert (9.61km)
  • Turenne (9.46km)

Much list, such wow. Also note how none of those is higher than tier 3

 

 

Also give it a rest already, none of your arguments (at least the ones that I've seen) have made any sense at any point :fish_palm:

I know of the lower tier ships but relevant though and my comment was for higher tiers even though i don't play in lower tier under 5 and when i did they had similar detection/rendering issues.   

 

I'm sure you are annoyed as well when you have any ship with in range going unseen.:cap_look: 

 

Where WG is on this detection/rendering remind me of something Nelson did at the battle of Trafalgar by putting his telescope up to his blind eye and said i see no ships. 

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I have read almost all the posts, but I have found them all beside the point so I quit reading and I post directly my point of view - which I made clear also in the survey I participate about the patches on PT server:

WG lost sight of the forest because of the trees.

 

As I see it at some moment during the summer of 2016 some WG boss decided the reality of the game resides in the correct side the broom closed doorknob is on the ship, instead of speed at which the player view is updated.

 

As a result, ship hulls have been re-tessellated thus increasing the number of calculations upon hit by a square factor, then every hit is affected ( in a bad arithmetical way, btw *) by quite a few RNG factors.

The result of all this complications is that the LOS (line of sight) algorithm - 

which has to be applied to every pair of objects in the game space - completes its cycle in ? seconds.

On the other hand "the data to be sent to players" buffer has a much faster cycle (it should be optimized to the average lag players experience)

As a result data is sent to the clients missing altogether the objects that took longer to calculate parameters. 

The only solutions to the problem would be 

1. faster servers (by a factor of 2 or 3 !  ) - unrealistic  :(

2. simpler ships with less tessellation and simpler ballistic and hit calculations.

and while there, more realistic table based RNG mitigated damage values.

*Hit damage should always exist as a (MIN + random) damage.

To let RNG tel you that 5 x 1 ton shells have penetrated a hull with NO DAMAGE as it is at present makes the player throw with the keyboard to the floor (as I personally witnessed.  

Edited by TataLup
orthography

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11 hours ago, Jessa_Doom said:

I know of the lower tier ships but relevant though and my comment was for higher tiers even though i don't play in lower tier under 5 and when i did they had similar detection/rendering issues.   

Ok, then here is a list of BBs at tier 5+ who can get their detection below 10km

  •  

Damn, that's an impressive list, isn't it?!

Lets go even a step further - BBs that can get their detection below 11km:

  • Monarch (10.95km)

Whoa, another long list!

 

11 hours ago, Jessa_Doom said:

I'm sure you are annoyed as well when you have any ship with in range going unseen.:cap_look: 

No, I'm not. Because I understand how & why it works like that. Absolutely not a problem

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1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

No, I'm not. Because I understand how & why it works like that. Absolutely not a problem

That's good news matey but i think i said and others have said over the past few updates that a BB under 10.km are not seen even if detected yes i have notice ships that get detected shows up but others don't show and have nothing to do with detect range this is what most players are on about.

 

This show/no show is what players are annoyed about, like in some battles a group of ship get spotted say a CA at 14.km and a couple of BB at 18.km but the ships in front of them say a BB that should be spotted is not even though a friendly DD it hiding in smoke at 13.km also someone has radar up and running and a BB at 8-10.km goes unseen intermitant weather it's the render or detection mechanics this should not happen seeing ships far away but not under your nose ops BOW.

 

Also you see a ship thus bring your gun to bere it disappears so while you are waiting for the ships to render so as to see them again you get a bit of lag while graphics catches up to render the ship only to find it has moved on into cover, not good when seeing a ship you should be able to see it all the time while in range.

 

Do not go on about graphic cards PC settings either as everyone set the game to suit their machines and i've played far more graphic needed orontating games and not one render/distance or detection/spotting issue.

 

If WG can get this spotting/detection ranges correct in WoT and WoP, then why is it so hard to get it right in WOW.         

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9 minutes ago, Jessa_Doom said:

i said and others have said over the past few updates that a BB under 10.km are not seen even if detected yes i have notice ships that get detected shows up but others don't show and have nothing to do with detect range this is what most players are on about.

And I can say that my dog has rainbow colored fur - doesn't make it true, does it?

 

No they don't and no they can't. Those 5 tier 2 & 3 BBs that I named are the only ones that go below 10km detection, and above them only Monarch goes below 11km by whole 50m.

 

12 minutes ago, Jessa_Doom said:

This show/no show is what players are annoyed about, like in some battles a group of ship get spotted say a CA at 14.km and a couple of BB at 18.km but the ships in front of them say a BB that should be spotted is not even though a friendly DD it hiding in smoke at 13.km also someone has radar up and running

Jesus, re-read what you write, it's almost impossible to understand what you mean

 

From what I can guess:

As long as the ship doesn't shoot its main guns smokescreen will hide it, no matter what ship that is. A DD sitting in his own smoke won't spot anything outside of it (except for ships that shoot their main guns bcuz it works in the exact same way). Those "I should have seen him" sound like potatoes who don't run concealment on their BBs and then wonder why they got outspotted by an enemy playing the same ship. Either that or there's LoS that they don't understand (like islands)

 

16 minutes ago, Jessa_Doom said:

a BB at 8-10.km goes unseen

Already told you:

23 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

List of BBs who have 10km or lower concealment (at max concealment build)

  • Mikasa (9.61km)
  • Kawachi (7.96km)
  • Nassau (8.71km)
  • Konig Albert (9.61km)
  • Turenne (9.46km)

No other BBs can do that (unless you can prove it with something more than "some potato once told me"?)

 

18 minutes ago, Jessa_Doom said:

Also you see a ship thus bring your gun to bere it disappears so while you are waiting for the ships to render so as to see them again you get a bit of lag while graphics catches up to render the ship only to find it has moved on into cover, not good when seeing a ship you should be able to see it all the time while in range.

No, no I don't get any "lag". Might be your toaster needing more coal.

If the ship disappears - that simply means noone is spotting him anymore. As soon as he will be spotted he will INSTANTLY show up on your minimap (you know, that thing at bottom-right side that you probably don't use) and will show up on your screen after 1...3 seconds which (sadly enough) is a delay that is supposed to be there

 

20 minutes ago, Jessa_Doom said:

when seeing a ship you should be able to see it all the time while in range.

If you are within his spotting range you will see him (assuming there's no island / smoke between you 2 covering the LoS). Pretty simple, isn't it?

 

25 minutes ago, Jessa_Doom said:

If WG can get this spotting/detection ranges correct in WoT and WoP, then why is it so hard to get it right in WOW.       

They already are correct :fish_palm:

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If they are correct what is causing situations with spotted but not rendered ships within their detection range?  Or ships disappearing like ghosts on zooming in/out? It is rare but very annoying.

 

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