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LandlubberWookie_IRL

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Why is it when I pick a ship class and tier I am always, not once off, not every now and again, ALWAYS, put into battles that are two tiers above my class??

I do not mind a hard fight, I do not mind fighting a ship above my tier, or two tiers above, but when I am constantly thrown in against ships that I SHOUL NOT BE IN AGAINST in EVERY ROUND. After all I work hard grinding to get that tier to fight that tier ship in that tier of battles so why is this not happening?

 

Why is it my BB shells ricochet laughably off a cruiser, where spam fire from a cruiser has no problem penetrating my BATTLEship bringing down my HP rapidly, laughably again,  where another BB has np deleting my ship like I am made of citadels or firewood?

It does not make for fun good and enjoyable gameplay constantly being thrown in against heavier tiers where I have little and no chance of enjoying the game.

 

Battleships set on fire like we are made out of tinder? Poor spreads, where in actual historical naval gunnery the spreads became more and more accurate on specific targets after each salvo, laughable ricochets on cruisers, woeful (and I do mean [edited]woeful) Tiering.

 

Every advantage is given to cruisers and destroyers for stealth and fire and modules for radar, hydro etc. etc. Fair enough, but there is no balance for Battleship players to play the class because it is now more frustrating annoying and NOT FUN or enjoyable in anyway lately now.

 

I do not mind a hard fight, even one against the odds, but lately this game for me has become so unenjoyable more frustrating and not rewarding as a Battleship player, I also play cruisers and destroyers, but officially its now a joke.

 

My highest kill rate in a round has been 7 ships in a Battleship same tier and one above, nowadays......since I am thrown in two tiers above my class by the time I get into the fight because my class off BB is slower, less manoeuvrable and outranged, I pretty much just move across the map to get fire spammed (after all I am made of wood and not steel) and then deleted in one salvo from a higher tier BB while I watch my shells do less damage than a cruiser.

 

At this stage where me and friends were starting a clan, we are now so frustrated to the point of moving on to other games, not bothering to play much anymore and highly recommending to other players/ friends to avoid it so as to save themselves the experiences we have had for the last month. And we really did enjoy this game up until 3 weeks ago.

 

Randomly being thrown into one tier or two tiers above my class is fine........EVERY [edited]ROUND, is a bit annoying now!

 

Or is it just me????

 

Probably will fall on deaf ears????

 

gl and hf lads, lasses, non gender specific gender fluid social justice warrior types (think that covers everyone lol) 

 

 

 

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Just you.

My ships are Top-Tier from time to time.

If you want +1/-1 MM, play Tier I to IV.

 

You sound like a typical BB player who has no clue what he is doing.

There are enough guides on the forum and youtube that explain how to play BB.

 

If you shoot all your guns all the time, you are doing it wrong. Keyword: Angling

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I thought he was a new player, but 2,675 battles, can't be.

 

Anyone got the BBaby Bingo card?

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37 minutes ago, BeauNidl3 said:

Anyone got the BBaby Bingo card?

 

I gotcha covered.

bbbingo.jpg

 

Though really, we need a new one since most of these have been addressed already. In fact I think the only things that haven't been ticked are "limited torps" and "more overpen damage".

 

3 hours ago, LandlubberWookie_IRL said:

Why is it when I pick a ship class and tier I am always, not once off, not every now and again, ALWAYS, put into battles that are two tiers above my class??

 

You're lying. If you are bottom tier four times in a row you're GUARANTEED to be top tier in your next game.

Although please note that some tiers have much more favorable MM than others (particularly T7) due to low tiers having protected +/-1 MM. E.g. according to WG statistics T8 is top tier only ~30% of the time in EU.

Also:

- cruisers could hurt battleships. If this game were more realistic you'd be a lot more vulnerable

- battleships (and ships in general) are far more accurate in this game than they were in real life. This is primarily due to ships in this game being over twice the size than they actually were. If this game were more realistic you'd be missing a lot more often

- ships burned when hit. A lot. There were and still are a ton of things on a warship that are extremely flammable. The metaphor of your ship "being made out of firewood" is actually fairly accurate

- shells ricochet if their tips fail to bury into a plate. The penetrative force of such a hit is practically nonexistent. There is a video out there of a modern artillery shell bouncing off the roof of a normal car due to the extreme angle. That isn't laughable, that's physics

- battleships are plenty powerful right now, even too powerful in some aspects

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19 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

If you are bottom tier four times in a row you're GUARANTEED to be top tier in your next game.

Eh? This is new to me...

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On 4/16/2018 at 4:13 AM, LandlubberWookie_IRL said:

Why is it when I pick a ship class and tier I am always, not once off, not every now and again, ALWAYS, put into battles that are two tiers above my class??

Because everything is possible when you lie.

 

On 4/16/2018 at 9:06 AM, PzychoPanzer said:

Eh? This is new to me...

Can be easily observed by playing a couple matches at, say, tier 2 in bad hours - you have high chances of being thrown into a couple t3 matches and then inexplicably you'll end up waiting much longer... after which you'll find yourself as top tier (there's a chance it will be 2v2 or even 1v1 if the hour is bad enough though). On higher tiers (due to higher population and MM struggling less) the system needs to kick in less frequently and is harder to notice when it does (since waiting times are somewhat reasonable even when matched as guaranteed top tier), but it still can sometimes be felt.

 

Also, the thing isn't precisely "every nth match". It works on ship-by-ship basis (so you can't stack not-top-tier matches in low tier to get yourself a match as top tier on a different ship) and I'm not sure how many times exactly you need to be not-top-tier to get a one-match super-protected MM, I think it's either 3 (so 4th match is top tier, giving you at least 25% matches being top tier) or 4 (5th match as top tier for 20% guaranteed top tier rate) but I never bothered to test this out and I'm not sure if the exact number was ever given by WG officially.

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

There is a video out there of a modern artillery shell bouncing off the roof of a normal car due to the extreme angle. That isn't laughable, that's physics

 

Do you happen to have a link to that? Would like to see it quite a bit.

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6 hours ago, LandlubberWookie_IRL said:

Why is it when I pick a ship class and tier I am always, not once off, not every now and again, ALWAYS, put into battles that are two tiers above my class??

It is all part of an secret evil Neo-Spectran plot society to turn all our brains into banana-flavored Jell-o for the next weekend's huge discount sale at Wal Mart. BWAHAHAHAHA! :cap_haloween:

evil.jpg.5aa3a24ca8fb74eb3f1177954080a719.jpg

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4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

There is a video out there of a modern artillery shell bouncing off the roof of a normal car due to the extreme angle. That isn't laughable, that's physics

 

2 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

 

Let's be fair, that shell barely touched the car and only with the body of the shell rather than the point. You can also see that the shell tumbles erratically after the contact.

In effect it practically failed to hit the car, the tip of the shell never touched the roof to bite into the target so to speak. That metal roof would probably dent if you just dropped the shell on it, nevermind shoot at it. It didn't resist the impact as much as it deformed out of its way.

 

This clip is a terribly inadequate source to explain projectile ricochets.

 

Also, if we're talking modern ammunition: that was a training shell without explosive filling. I'm not sure how sensitive the fuze of modern HE artillery shells are, but even that glancing hit should've resulted in its detonation due to the significant deceleration of the shell. If we were to talk about modern rigid penetrators (APFSDS), ricochets are de facto an impossibility due to the velocities involved. They will either shatter on impact, imbed but fail to penetrate completely, or penetrate, but never bounce.

 

 

Yes, projectiles (particularily relatively low velocity shells) can bounce off even comparatively little armour at extreme angles, but the armour at the point of impact at least has to be strong enough to actually withstand the force and deflect rather than deform. If it deforms but fails to deflect, the shell might still be able to bite into the armour and then pierce it if its penetration is great enough to defeat the effective armour thickness.

 

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9 hours ago, LandlubberWookie_IRL said:

Every advantage is given to cruisers and destroyers for stealth and fire and modules for radar, hydro etc. etc.

 

5ad47a1a2a278_MissouribestCA.jpg.43afbc761f7722534ff2997e880ec315.jpg

 

Did someone say Missouri?

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11 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

 

Let's be fair, that shell barely touched the car and only with the body of the shell rather than the point. You can also see that the shell tumbles erratically after the contact.

In effect it practically failed to hit the car, the tip of the shell never touched the roof to bite into the target so to speak. That metal roof would probably dent if you just dropped the shell on it, nevermind shoot at it. It didn't resist the impact as much as it deformed out of its way.

 

This clip is a terribly inadequate source to explain projectile ricochets.

 

Also, if we're talking modern ammunition: that was a training shell without explosive filling. I'm not sure how sensitive the fuze of modern HE artillery shells are, but even that glancing hit should've resulted in its detonation due to the significant deceleration of the shell. If we were to talk about modern rigid penetrators (APFSDS), ricochets are de facto an impossibility due to the velocities involved. They will either shatter on impact, imbed but fail to penetrate completely, or penetrate, but never bounce.

 

 

Yes, projectiles (particularily relatively low velocity shells) can bounce off even comparatively little armour at extreme angles, but the armour at the point of impact at least has to be strong enough to actually withstand the force and deflect rather than deform. If it deforms but fails to deflect, the shell might still be able to bite into the armour and then pierce it if its penetration is great enough to defeat the effective armour thickness.

 

It is still a ricochet, the shell changes course. And ricochets without any deformation at impact point are rare (pistol bullets vs tank armor?)

And explosion clearly shows the explosive filling of the shell.

And yes APFSDS can still ricochet, the conditions where this can happen are very specific, not that this matters for WoWs.

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28 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And yes APFSDS can still ricochet, the conditions where this can happen are very specific

 

I'll just be lazy and link to this.

 

Quote

APFSDS don’t bounce off because they are built in such a way that they deliver that energy even at extreme angles. It’ll shatter before it’ll ever bounce off the armor.

 

Quote

What we think of as “bouncing” off a surface is a significant impulse (F*t) applied perpendicularly to the projectile.

APFSDS projectiles are very fast, about 5x faster than artillery shells, thus the time required to create this impulse is very short.

Contrarily, the F component does not vary (much) with velocity. The maximum force imparted by armor is roughly the amount of force required to induce material failure on the cross sectional area involved.

If the velocity is fast enough that the rod can generate sufficient pressure over its tiny cross sectional area to exceed the force exerted by the armor, then the armor acts like a fluid - it simply yields to the projectile until the velocity is no longer high enough to cause armor failure.

 

28 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It is still a ricochet, the shell changes course. And ricochets without any deformation at impact point are rare (pistol bullets vs tank armor?)

And explosion clearly shows the explosive filling of the shell.

 

It's technically a ricochet, but that's arguing semantics. The car roof didn't block the projectile from penetrating, no part of the car even fully intersected with the projectile trajectory.

 

And that explosion at the end was just a small smoking charge whose purpose is to give visual confirmation of the simulated detonation. You can clearly see that none of the bushes near the explosion were buffeted by what should be a high-pressure blastwave if that was an actual HE shell with a proper high explosive filling.

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"until the velocity is no longer high enough to cause armor failure" --> ricochet

 

You can clearly see a Fireball --> Explosion --> Shell with Fuse

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25 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

"until the velocity is no longer high enough to cause armor failure" --> ricochet

 

You can clearly see a Fireball --> Explosion --> Shell with Fuse

 

Wow, you managed to read the answer without understanding it ... tell me, after the armour yielded to the projectile (which means it penetrated), how is that penetrator going to ricochet from inside the armour? You think it just bounces straight out backwards? APFSDS doesn't bounce, if the armour is strong enough to completely withstand the impact it will shatter.

 

And again, training shells don't come with an high explosive filling. That stuff is expensive, too expensive to waste on a shooting range shooting at old cars. Training shells come with a smoking charge as visual cue of a simulated hit (and I don't see a "fireball" in that video, a whole lot of smoke though ...).


Didn't find something about Russian training shells, but here's a diagram of an US 155mm training shell.

 

 

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10 hours ago, LandlubberWookie_IRL said:

Why is it when I pick a ship class and tier I am always, not once off, not every now and again, ALWAYS, put into battles that are two tiers above my class??

I do not mind a hard fight, I do not mind fighting a ship above my tier, or two tiers above, but when I am constantly thrown in against ships that I SHOUL NOT BE IN AGAINST in EVERY ROUND. After all I work hard grinding to get that tier to fight that tier ship in that tier of battles so why is this not happening?

 

Why is it my BB shells ricochet laughably off a cruiser, where spam fire from a cruiser has no problem penetrating my BATTLEship bringing down my HP rapidly, laughably again,  where another BB has np deleting my ship like I am made of citadels or firewood?

It does not make for fun good and enjoyable gameplay constantly being thrown in against heavier tiers where I have little and no chance of enjoying the game.

 

Battleships set on fire like we are made out of tinder? Poor spreads, where in actual historical naval gunnery the spreads became more and more accurate on specific targets after each salvo, laughable ricochets on cruisers, woeful (and I do mean [edited]woeful) Tiering.

 

Every advantage is given to cruisers and destroyers for stealth and fire and modules for radar, hydro etc. etc. Fair enough, but there is no balance for Battleship players to play the class because it is now more frustrating annoying and NOT FUN or enjoyable in anyway lately now.

 

I do not mind a hard fight, even one against the odds, but lately this game for me has become so unenjoyable more frustrating and not rewarding as a Battleship player, I also play cruisers and destroyers, but officially its now a joke.

 

My highest kill rate in a round has been 7 ships in a Battleship same tier and one above, nowadays......since I am thrown in two tiers above my class by the time I get into the fight because my class off BB is slower, less manoeuvrable and outranged, I pretty much just move across the map to get fire spammed (after all I am made of wood and not steel) and then deleted in one salvo from a higher tier BB while I watch my shells do less damage than a cruiser.

 

At this stage where me and friends were starting a clan, we are now so frustrated to the point of moving on to other games, not bothering to play much anymore and highly recommending to other players/ friends to avoid it so as to save themselves the experiences we have had for the last month. And we really did enjoy this game up until 3 weeks ago.

 

Randomly being thrown into one tier or two tiers above my class is fine........EVERY [edited]ROUND, is a bit annoying now!

 

Or is it just me????

 

Probably will fall on deaf ears????

 

gl and hf lads, lasses, non gender specific gender fluid social justice warrior types (think that covers everyone lol) 

 

 

 

 

A BB Kevin at its best......

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10 hours ago, LandlubberWookie_IRL said:

Why is it when I pick a ship class and tier I am always, not once off, not every now and again, ALWAYS, put into battles that are two tiers above my class??

Because confirmation bias not an actual thing that happens. Also probably too much playing tier 5 and tier 8

 

10 hours ago, LandlubberWookie_IRL said:

Why is it my BB shells ricochet laughably off a cruiser, where spam fire from a cruiser has no problem penetrating my BATTLEship bringing down my HP rapidly, laughably again,  where another BB has np deleting my ship like I am made of citadels or firewood?

Learn armour profiles, learn how stuff like penetration, autobouncing and overmatch works, and most of all - learn to ANGLE yourself and how to use repair / heal properly

 

Basically git gud

 

10 hours ago, LandlubberWookie_IRL said:

Battleships set on fire like we are made out of tinder? Poor spreads, where in actual historical naval gunnery the spreads became more and more accurate on specific targets after each salvo, laughable ricochets on cruisers, woeful (and I do mean [edited]woeful) Tiering.

Learn proper damage control, and fires wont be too much of a problem most of the time

 

Accuracy - stop sniping from max range, move closer

And those bounces are happening as they should, you probably are just aiming where you shouldn't

 

10 hours ago, LandlubberWookie_IRL said:

Every advantage is given to cruisers and destroyers for stealth and fire and modules for radar, hydro etc. etc. Fair enough, but there is no balance for Battleship players to play the class because it is now more frustrating annoying and NOT FUN or enjoyable in anyway lately now.

BBs already are really strong, and no, there are very few advantages that the cruisers have over others. As mentioned before - git gud

 

10 hours ago, LandlubberWookie_IRL said:

My highest kill rate in a round has been 7 ships in a Battleship same tier and one above, nowadays......since I am thrown in two tiers above my class by the time I get into the fight because my class off BB is slower, less manoeuvrable and outranged, I pretty much just move across the map to get fire spammed (after all I am made of wood and not steel) and then deleted in one salvo from a higher tier BB while I watch my shells do less damage than a cruiser.

Do I need to repeat myself? Git gud. You are just screwing something up and getting punished for it, it's a fault in you (your skills to be exact) not a problem with the game

 


 

5 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

If you are bottom tier four times in a row you're GUARANTEED to be top tier in your next game.

Tell that to my tier 8s, never heard of or seen something like that happen :Smile_teethhappy:

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

Wow, you managed to read the answer without understanding it ... tell me, after the armour yielded to the projectile (which means it penetrated), how is that penetrator going to ricochet from inside the armour? You think it just bounces straight out backwards? APFSDS doesn't bounce, if the armour is strong enough to completely withstand the impact it will shatter.

 

And again, training shells don't come with an high explosive filling. That stuff is expensive, too expensive to waste on a shooting range shooting at old cars. Training shells come with a smoking charge as visual cue of a simulated hit (and I don't see a "fireball" in that video, a whole lot of smoke though ...).


Didn't find something about Russian training shells, but here's a diagram of an US 155mm training shell.

 

 

Yielding means deforming. 5.000 mm of armor cannot be penetrated by any tank shell, but you can bet APFSDS will leave a mark. 

Pick a long enough distance and the right angle (1 degree?) and APFSDS will bounce.

 

If you do not see the fireball, how do you interpret the light inside the explosion?

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1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

Yielding means deforming. 5.000 mm of armor cannot be penetrated by any tank shell, but you can bet APFSDS will leave a mark. 

Pick a long enough distance and the right angle (1 degree?) and APFSDS will bounce.

 

If you do not see the fireball, how do you interpret the light inside the explosion?

 

It says in the explanation, the pressure generated by the penetrator exceeds the force the armour can exert on it. The result is the armour acting like a fluid (quite literally in many cases as the intense pressure will melt parts of the (layered) armour that aren't heat resistant enough) until the penetrator has lost enough velocity that its pressure no longer overwhelms the armour.  However by the time the penetrator has slowed down that mauch, it's already snugly inside the armour. If the armour is string enough, the penetrator might not succeed in penetrating the armour completely, but it can't quite literally bounce when it's stuck inside.

 

As as I said multiple times now, APFSDS will not bounce. Those penetrators are long and thin. Not exactly a sound structural design for something to withstand force applied to it perpendicularily. It's design with stand a lot of force straight-on to its point, not to its sides. If the armour is triong enough to completely block the penetrator, it will shatter on impact, not bounce.

 

As for the light in the explosion, that smoking charge I'm speaking off, something has to set it off, otherwise all you get is a broken shell leaking smoke from its cracks. There is a small amount of explosives in the fuze along with the smoke canister, but the actual HE filling inside a live shell meant for actual combat isn't present in training shells, too expensive (also too risky if you assume that training shells are also used by people that are still in training, wouldn't want to hand those live rounds and then something goes wrong).

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12 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

As as I said multiple times now, APFSDS will not bounce. Those penetrators are long and thin. Not exactly a sound structural design for something to withstand force applied to it perpendicularily. It's design with stand a lot of force straight-on to its point, not to its sides. If the armour is triong enough to completely block the penetrator, it will shatter on impact, not bounce.

 

There's actually an interesting annecdote about that, where during the Iraq-Iran war, one Iranian Chieftain tank commander reported that he felt a masive impact on his tank, and when he popped his head out to check out what happened, he could see a glowing impact in the turret, with an APDS or APFSDS (it's not clear which as it's not certain what tank fired) lodged in there.

 

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3 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

There's actually an interesting annecdote about that, where during the Iraq-Iran war, one Iranian Chieftain tank commander reported that he felt a masive impact on his tank, and when he popped his head out to check out what happened, he could see a glowing impact in the turret, with an APDS or APFSDS (it's not clear which as it's not certain what tank fired) lodged in there.

 

Yep, that's what solid penetrators do. In this case the shot failed to completely penetrate.

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12 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Yep, that's what solid penetrators do. In this case the shot failed to completely penetrate.

 

And to further elaborate, long rod penetrators simply can't ricochet anymore because the force it would takes to make it deviate from it's path is to immense that the rod shatters before it moves.

That's in fact the very reason DU penetrators are made to never exceed some 1600m/s . Anything more, and it shatters from the gratuitous amount of force being applied to, well, basically the entire cluster**** of a physical system.

But by god, you'll never see it bounce or ricochet.

High velocity ballistics are just ridiculous. 
 

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1 minute ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

And to further elaborate, long rod penetrators simply can't ricochet anymore because the force it would takes to make it deviate from it's path is to immense that the rod shatters before it moves.

That's in fact the very reason DU penetrators are made to never exceed some 1600m/s . Anything more, and it shatters from the gratuitous amount of force being applied to, well, basically the entire cluster**** of a physical system.

But by god, you'll never see it bounce or ricochet.

High velocity ballistics are just ridiculous. 
 

 

Exactly.

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But this game do not have penetrator rods!

Here are "normal" shaped shell used.

 

For ricochets you need very small impact angles. And thus the tip of a shell will not make contact. Simple geometry.

 

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44 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

As as I said multiple times now, APFSDS will not bounce. Those penetrators are long and thin. Not exactly a sound structural design for something to withstand force applied to it perpendicularily. It's design with stand a lot of force straight-on to its point, not to its sides. If the armour is triong enough to completely block the penetrator, it will shatter on impact, not bounce.

Any round will bounce if the angle is shallow enough. The circumstances are going to be rare, sure, but it's certainly possible. Basically, the rod has to hit at an angle where the actual point doesn't impact the armour, but at the same time is shallow enough that the rod doesn't simply break.

 

Not that the performance of long-rod penetrators is really relevant in this case. I'm not even sure if naval ammunition with ballistic caps was a thing. The difference between AP and HE ammunition is mostly about the ratio of metal to explosive filler, and "old-school" ammunition types tend to behave quite predictably with regards to how they interact with armour at different impact angles.

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