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Upgrade of Ship Spotting System

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A ship's icon on the Minimap and its silhouette in the battle will be rendered simultaneously, eliminating cases where a spotted enemy ship's icon appears on the Minimap first, before the ship appears on screen seconds later.
Leave your feedback regarding this change down below.

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I never saw any if this in play.

 

As far as i know since i started to play WOW way back 10 months ago something like this has been in play as i had notice that i get a voice alert saying whatever ship is spotted on the horizon, i'm looking but see nothing.

 

You should base detection on real horizon ranges and ships crows nest height is where lookouts spot, ie the higher you are the further you see thus in a BB/CA with higher crows nests than a DD's,  you should spot a DD before it spots you.

 

Also ships with spotter planes, why can't we send our spotter planes out like the way carriers send planes out. 

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Currently on live server even if the client refuses to load in the enemy ship for more than those "standard" 3-ish seconds you at least know of it, it's direction and maybe movement by abusing this OP cheat-hack thingy called minimap.

 

Why is it needed to give minimap the same delay as your screen has?

Using minimap too OP? Average windowlicker finds it too hard so this "super advanced skill" has to be taken away from everyone?

 


 

Testing it is simple - training room, same spawns, same ships, known enemy detection range. 10min and you have the results

  • Ship used by player: Hsienyang with speed flag
  • Both cases spawn location identical, movement direction as identical as I could get it
  • Same movement speed
  • Ship assigned stationary bot: Conq
  • Conq has base spotting range (which bots have) at 15.66km
  • After spotting Conq would expect to see 15.7km or 15.6km distance to it
  • Live and PTS tests Conq shows up on screen at 15.4km
  • On Live server Conq appears on minimap before appearing on screen
  • On PTS Conq appears on the minimap together with it appearing on the screen

 

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7 hours ago, Jessa_Doom said:

I never saw any if this in play.

 

As far as i know since i started to play WOW way back 10 months ago something like this has been in play as i had notice that i get a voice alert saying whatever ship is spotted on the horizon, i'm looking but see nothing.

 

You should base detection on real horizon ranges and ships crows nest height is where lookouts spot, ie the higher you are the further you see thus in a BB/CA with higher crows nests than a DD's,  you should spot a DD before it spots you.

 

It doesn't work this way m8, it has to do with how far our vision can see. also atmosphere (weather conditions) . And through binoculars you will see first the Higher and Bigger ship not the DD.

It also works both ways this perspective.

I am not sure if you actualy are a sailor and you know this things or you just assuming them cause you prefer to play BB's.

 

Also this topic refers to the ships appearing on minimap before get rendered in your graphics card. And I can assure you that it is a work in progress cause playing the 0.7.4 doesn't seem that this have changed.

Still you see ships first in the minimap.

 

It is like you re saying that if I am in a fishing boat with binoculars a Battleship can spot me, while I won't see the Battleship...Think again.

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11 hours ago, Jessa_Doom said:

I never saw any if this in play.

 

As far as i know since i started to play WOW way back 10 months ago something like this has been in play as i had notice that i get a voice alert saying whatever ship is spotted on the horizon, i'm looking but see nothing.

 

You should base detection on real horizon ranges and ships crows nest height is where lookouts spot, ie the higher you are the further you see thus in a BB/CA with higher crows nests than a DD's,  you should spot a DD before it spots you.

 

Also ships with spotter planes, why can't we send our spotter planes out like the way carriers send planes out. 

lookout height is implemented as view range ingame ... the bigger ships have larger view range. detection is independent of view range, you could say the bigger the ship, the higher over the horizon it towers so worse concealment.

 

both mechanics are completely independent of each other .....

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Here's a vid so you can see the difference between the spotting currently and spotting on the PTS

 

 

 

That 1.33s delay is also a pretty standard-good case, there are plenty of times when I've had / seen others having 3s, 5s or even longer "render times", and in those cases all you could do was rely on your minimap :fish_palm:

  • Cool 1

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In reality it have been always more difficult to spot someone in high aspect to you (air force term) than someone medium aspect. (his 3 or 9 looking your 12 o clock) .

Is this going to get implemmented in the game?

I mean different concealment =in regards of the aspect of target to you, high or medium (head on or broadside), Nobody can miss a Broadside N.Carolina for example, while you can see it a bit more later if it is head on to you.

(I think I ve went too far in this one ) too realistic for a game like warships.

Anyway, I was in the PTS two days now, played many games, concealment maybe worked in LAN tests it doesn't work on the NET.

Funny I always get the spotted!! symbol and then I see it in the minimap and after the ship appears visualy.

I am talking always for same ships,  lowest concealment modules etc.

 

 

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I hope the devs will actually fix the current spotting delay instead of that eyewashing by just adding another delay, calling it a job well done afterwards. The devs of World of Tanks also managed to get rid of that rendering delay properly, so I don't see any legitimate (technological) reason why it won't work in Warships.

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1 hour ago, Patax2 said:

I hope the devs will actually fix the current spotting delay instead of that eyewashing by just adding another delay, calling it a job well done afterwards. The devs of World of Tanks also managed to get rid of that rendering delay properly, so I don't see any legitimate (technological) reason why it won't work in Warships.

Because they don't want to get rid of it. The Delay is there to help people who play this game on a toaster. It also wasn't there forever, they added it in some patch and now they're doing the same with the minimap.

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they are trying to cater to the lowend pc users as much as possible in WoT too, but after they removed the render-delay there, there wasn't any outrage from ppl about the game becoming unplayable for them because of that. 
Edit: Because of that I very much doubt that it massively cripples the performance on lowend builds in WoWS.

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4 hours ago, Patax2 said:

they are trying to cater to the lowend pc users as much as possible in WoT too, but after they removed the render-delay there, there wasn't any outrage from ppl about the game becoming unplayable for them because of that. 
Edit: Because of that I very much doubt that it massively cripples the performance on lowend builds in WoWS.

It's not because of the performance, it's because people complain about being put at a disadvantage (doesn't matter if perceived or real). WoT and WoWs are also done by completely different teams. Even the four regions of WoWs are done by different teams.

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Hi WG and all.

 

Earlier i posted a comment on detection being based on actual horizon distances and said the higher the further you see some of you made good comeback comments but may not grasp on what the higher the further you see.

 

I also said that ships crowsnest is the most highest lookout spot on a ship and that a big ship like a battleship say the crowsnest is 100.ft the lookout will see a smaller ship before the smaller ship nest 20.ft will see the bigger ship, though some will say this should be the other way round, you would think so.

 

I can say with truth that the higher you are the further you will see, on living not to far away from the coastline where we have cliffs about 150.ft and gas/oil rigs about 25-30 miles offshore.

 

I can say standing on the beach with or without binoculars looking out to the horizon i can't see nothing just the curvature of the horizon, but if i stand in the clifftops about 150 feet high i can see the oil/gas rigs that are beyond the beach horizon, so the bigger ship will see the smaller first.

 

The only way a smaller ships lookout would see a bigger ship is when behind a island outcrop where the crowsnest is just above the islands land height, or the smaller ships silhouette is hidden by the shoreline.

 

Some of you will say what about smoke the smaller ship will see the bigger ship firsts, Nope! setting smoke is a sure big giverway that the smaller ship is there thus the bigger ship will take action accordingly.   

  

Below is examples of height the further you see stuff and a link to site where i got the info.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon#Distance_to_the_horizon.

 

You may have too highlight this info to see it.

 

  • For an observer standing on the ground with h = 1.70 metres (5 ft 7 in), the horizon is at a distance of 4.7 kilometres (2.9 mi).
  • For an observer standing on the ground with h = 2 metres (6 ft 7 in), the horizon is at a distance of 5 kilometres (3.1 mi).
  • For an observer standing on a hill or tower of 100 metres (330 ft) in height, the horizon is at a distance of 36 kilometres (22 mi).
  • For an observer standing at the top of the Burj Khalifa (828 metres (2,717 ft) in height), the horizon is at a distance of 103 kilometres (64 mi).
  • For an observer atop Mount Everest (8,848 metres (29,029 ft) in altitude), the horizon is at a distance of 336 kilometres (209 mi).

 If this isn't the correct way of detection for spotting then the WG world of warships have change the law of physics and all height/distances are wrong.  

 

I hope this clears things up abit.

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On 17/4/2018 at 5:35 AM, Jessa_Doom said:

Hi WG and all.

 

Earlier i posted a comment on detection being based on actual horizon distances and said the higher the further you see some of you made good comeback comments but may not grasp on what the higher the further you see.

 

I also said that ships crowsnest is the most highest lookout spot on a ship and that a big ship like a battleship say the crowsnest is 100.ft the lookout will see a smaller ship before the smaller ship nest 20.ft will see the bigger ship, though some will say this should be the other way round, you would think so.

 

I can say with truth that the higher you are the further you will see, on living not to far away from the coastline where we have cliffs about 150.ft and gas/oil rigs about 25-30 miles offshore.

 

I can say standing on the beach with or without binoculars looking out to the horizon i can't see nothing just the curvature of the horizon, but if i stand in the clifftops about 150 feet high i can see the oil/gas rigs that are beyond the beach horizon, so the bigger ship will see the smaller first.

 

The only way a smaller ships lookout would see a bigger ship is when behind a island outcrop where the crowsnest is just above the islands land height, or the smaller ships silhouette is hidden by the shoreline.

 

Some of you will say what about smoke the smaller ship will see the bigger ship firsts, Nope! setting smoke is a sure big giverway that the smaller ship is there thus the bigger ship will take action accordingly.   

  

Below is examples of height the further you see stuff and a link to site where i got the info.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon#Distance_to_the_horizon.

 

You may have too highlight this info to see it.

 

  • For an observer standing on the ground with h = 1.70 metres (5 ft 7 in), the horizon is at a distance of 4.7 kilometres (2.9 mi).
  • For an observer standing on the ground with h = 2 metres (6 ft 7 in), the horizon is at a distance of 5 kilometres (3.1 mi).
  • For an observer standing on a hill or tower of 100 metres (330 ft) in height, the horizon is at a distance of 36 kilometres (22 mi).
  • For an observer standing at the top of the Burj Khalifa (828 metres (2,717 ft) in height), the horizon is at a distance of 103 kilometres (64 mi).
  • For an observer atop Mount Everest (8,848 metres (29,029 ft) in altitude), the horizon is at a distance of 336 kilometres (209 mi).

 If this isn't the correct way of detection for spotting then the WG world of warships have change the law of physics and all height/distances are wrong.  

 

I hope this clears things up abit.

 

In regars to spotting, due to hight, as you describe it, you are partially right. However, you forget that, if you can see it, then it can see you, to some extent.

But, the DD has a smaller "frame" and is therefore harder to spot, than the BB, which has a much bigger frame, hence, the bigger ship has bigger detection radius.

 

 

2 ships, a DD and a BB, where, according to hight and your explanation, the BB spots the DD, but then the DD can also spot the BB. Due to the curvature, when being very far apart, none of them should see more than the top of the ship though.

5addc97082696_spotting01.thumb.jpg.dcd699496b92b930eb3529face8908f9.jpg

 

However, the closer they get to eachother, the more of the ships become visible and the BB being the larger ship WILL be more "spotfriendly".

5addc9714e79b_spotting02.thumb.jpg.2653f9a566d128e3b4b33696769807e9.jpg

 

So, bigger ships = higher detection range. There's simply more mass visible over the horizon.

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3 hours ago, PziCrow said:

 

In regars to spotting, due to hight, as you describe it, you are partially right. However, you forget that, if you can see it, then it can see you, to some extent.

But, the DD has a smaller "frame" and is therefore harder to spot, than the BB, which has a much bigger frame, hence, the bigger ship has bigger detection radius.

 

 

2 ships, a DD and a BB, where, according to hight and your explanation, the BB spots the DD, but then the DD can also spot the BB. Due to the curvature, when being very far apart, none of them should see more than the top of the ship though.

5addc97082696_spotting01.thumb.jpg.dcd699496b92b930eb3529face8908f9.jpg

 

However, the closer they get to eachother, the more of the ships become visible and the BB being the larger ship WILL be more "spotfriendly".

5addc9714e79b_spotting02.thumb.jpg.2653f9a566d128e3b4b33696769807e9.jpg

 

So, bigger ships = higher detection range. There's simply more mass visible over the horizon.

Hi PziCrow

 

Logically you would think that if you can see them they can see you, and your pictures would suggest that but not necessarily as the sea around you would be flat and gradually you would be looking up to the horizon as though you were in a bowl and you would see past the edge of that bowl and therefore you will not see the BB no matter how big/tall as it's bowl is bigger thus it's horizon is further, and where you would see past the horizon is what you are looking at ie something above your height horizon line.

 

Your picture shows the distance at which point both ships would see each other and that being correct and i'd agree with that , but not the true distance point of who would see who first. 

 

As i said about being on the beach i could not see some rigs and on the cliffs i could see them what i failed to say was in the 70's i worked on the rigs 15.ml offshore and their decks were 120.ft above the sea level and could see all shore line but on the beach no way i saw the highest part of the rig being the drill derrick at 160.ft above sea level being 5'8 tall and only seeing to 3.ml/8.6.km out but see them when on the cliffs.

 

This link below is a distance calculator maybe using this would give meaning to what you'd see from the known crowsnest height of ships used in game.  

http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm

 

For the game true seeing distances have to be scaled for the maps as there is no horizon curvature to them but Wg can still base detection on height to distance, and as i see the map scale is not true to ships sizes and how far they are away from you ie you can't see a DD 6-7.km detection range though you are on a bb bridge say at 50.m high with a seeing distance 25.3.km, tecnaly you would be at a height of 3-4.m not to see the DD, so none of the games detection to sight ranges have any logic to them thus why true height/distances detection would make more sense.

   

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24 minutes ago, Jessa_Doom said:

As i said about being on the beach i could not see some rigs and on the cliffs

Let me put it this way

 

small thing (you) could see the big thing (the rig)

at that same the big thing (rig) looking at the small thing (you) wouldn't see it despite the line of sight clearly being there

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@Jessa_Doom

Again, you are partially right, but I think you are slightly confused. My picture explains everything perfectly clear.

Here, let me put a little extra in, showing what you said, that is true, but disproves what you're trying to say and just proving my picture.

5ade1f941a06f_spotting03.thumb.jpg.cbfa5de433a6d6b9a0e02d6b220281ba.jpg

 

Yes, the small ship has a shorter distance to the horizon and the big ship has a long distance to the horizon. But, as soon as either of them can see the top of the other ship, the other ship can see the top of the first ship.

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Anyhow, this conversation is starting to resemble something like kids talking about if one closes his/her eyes, the other kids can't see him/her. Sorry, no offense meant.

 

About the way this "solution" is done at the moment, it is not optimal. However, from what I heard, it is only a temporary fix and they are working on a better solution.

They talk about it here in a youtube video Waterline: Episode 1.1 [World of Warships]

https://youtu.be/Z3EQ5edpuMs?t=11m54s

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Just now, PziCrow said:

Anyhow, this conversation is starting to resemble something like kids talking about if one closes his/her eyes, the other kids can't see him/her. Sorry, no offense meant.

 

About the way this "solution" is done at the moment, it is not optimal. However, from what I heard, it is only a temporary fix and they are working on a better solution.

https://youtu.be/Z3EQ5edpuMs?t=11m54s

None taken.

 

I do agree with your second picture looking at it that way though in the real world it's how and the way you look at things.  

 

Anyway hope WG sort out the bugs with this detection and rendering.   

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Nice discussion but one point is not covered - resolution. Basically a human observer has a limit on minimal resolution he can spot in the distance. Given the length of the ships, the distance from observer where the angular size surpasses the minimal threshold will be larger for the BB than for the smaller DD. Thus the DD will have a concealment advantage.

 

This gets a bit more complicated when taking the curvature of the horizon into account since the smallest parts of the ship (main tower) are visible first. But the game does not complicated things with this.

 

Also the game does not consider the orientation of the ship towards the observer ...

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