[WG] Sehales WG Staff, Alpha Tester 6,497 posts 2,189 battles Report post #1 Posted April 11, 2018 Starting with 0.7.4, the matchmaker is trying to form mirrored teams in regards to tier and ship classes. In case the waiting time exceed three minutes (e.g. during night time with less players), it will fall back to the old matchmaking process. What do you think about this change? Leave your feedback here! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TWS] HelldiverGr Players 123 posts 22,205 battles Report post #2 Posted April 14, 2018 Matchmaking I think that needs to check other thinks than just Tiers. Also leave T10 play alone. They are good, they made it, why killing T8, only to laugh at it? There are so many T10 this days, it isn't like the open Beta period. Also, if you only match tiers, then what about a guy that just bought his ship and it is all stock with bad captain.? He would have to compete with same tier AND 2 tiers above?. Just some thoughts. I know Vladimir is trying hard... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[ALYEN] Hugh_Ruka Players 2,240 posts 4,123 battles Report post #3 Posted April 15, 2018 I wonder how you are going to test MM on a notoriously player starved public test ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wilkatis_LV ∞ Players 5,061 posts 8,562 battles Report post #4 Posted April 15, 2018 10 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said: I wonder how you are going to test MM on a notoriously player starved public test ... Well if you bothered to read what's changed you'd see how Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[ALYEN] Hugh_Ruka Players 2,240 posts 4,123 battles Report post #5 Posted April 15, 2018 Just now, wilkatis_LV said: Well if you bothered to read what's changed you'd see how Believe me I did ... they are making the wrong changes to the MM ... There should be broader tier spread for DDs, less for cruisers and middle for BBs (like 3 tiers for DDs, 1 tier for cruisers and 2 tiers for BBs). Still no consideration for Radar, still no consideration for DD concealment etc .... at high tiers, this kills the game quite a lot since the wrong MM can screw you no matter how much you try ... I am just wondering how the evaluation will work since public test is not really much of a test in some aspects, especially when large player numbers a large tier/class pool is required ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wilkatis_LV ∞ Players 5,061 posts 8,562 battles Report post #6 Posted April 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said: they are making the wrong changes to the MM Currently there are 2 kinds of ships - "top tier" and "not top tier". Lets say it's tier 10 game. Tier 10 ship count won't differ by more than 1. So then, lets say, team A has 4 tier 10 ships. That means team B will have 3 / 4 / 5 of them. So far so good, right? Now we get to the "not top tier" - MM doesn't care if you are 8 or 9, you are both seen as equal. That means that one team can get full of 8s while the other one gets full of 9s As it stands game of 4x t10 + 8x t8 fighting vs 5x t10 + 7x t9 would be a legit "nothing wrong with this" MM What they are changing it is making the bottom-er tiers count actually balancing stuff between teams. Tell me again, they are doing what "wrong" with it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[ALYEN] Hugh_Ruka Players 2,240 posts 4,123 battles Report post #7 Posted April 15, 2018 28 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said: Currently there are 2 kinds of ships - "top tier" and "not top tier". Lets say it's tier 10 game. Tier 10 ship count won't differ by more than 1. So then, lets say, team A has 4 tier 10 ships. That means team B will have 3 / 4 / 5 of them. So far so good, right? Now we get to the "not top tier" - MM doesn't care if you are 8 or 9, you are both seen as equal. That means that one team can get full of 8s while the other one gets full of 9s As it stands game of 4x t10 + 8x t8 fighting vs 5x t10 + 7x t9 would be a legit "nothing wrong with this" MM What they are changing it is making the bottom-er tiers count actually balancing stuff between teams. Tell me again, they are doing what "wrong" with it? How does this translate into the lower tiers ? Not at all since the chart on the page only talks about tiers 8+ ... It's WGs fault that they created major balancing points at some tiers yet they fail to account for them in matchmaking ... You see it's not only about the tier but also about ship capabilities (cruiser heal, concealment module, radar f.e.). So tiers are not actually really relevant in the MM ... It's more the ship role and capabilities that should be counted (f.e. Khaba is not really a DD, so considering it as a DD for the purpose of MM is a mistake and there are more ships like that, another issue are tier 8 CVs in tier 10 games ...). Basically the top tier MM will take longer since you can Q for up to 3 minutes until the behavior for you changes. The games will not be more balanced ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wilkatis_LV ∞ Players 5,061 posts 8,562 battles Report post #8 Posted April 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said: How does this translate into the lower tiers ? Not at all since the chart on the page only talks about tiers 8+ Literally exact same as previously: Spoiler Lets say it's tier 7 game. Tier 7 ship count won't differ by more than 1. So then, lets say, team A has 4 tier 7 ships. That means team B will have 3 / 4 / 5 of them. So far so good, right? Now we get to the "not top tier" - MM doesn't care if you are 5 or 6, you are both seen as equal. That means that one team can get full of 5s while the other one gets full of 6s As it stands game of 4x t7 + 8x t5 fighting vs 5x t7 + 7x t6 would be a legit "nothing wrong with this" MM Was it that hard to figure out? Tiers 2 through 4 it's already working like that because they have only +/-1 tier spread (a.k.a. the "not top tier" part doesn't split into multiple tiers) And since tier 1 can meet only tier 1 it's completely unaffected by any MM changes that aren't made to tier 1 specifically In other words this affects 6 out of the 10 tiers we have (5 through 9 directly and then 10 because they will meet those "not top tier" ships), and I'm pretty sure that would include far far larger amount of player base than tiers 1 through 4. Also I find it kind-of funny that it affects the zone where currently 87.3% of games you've played are, and unless you plan to go on a tier 4 or lower sealclubbing rampage that % will just keep growing 2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said: cruiser heal is a balancing factor, one of many. if cruiser receives this it will be lacking in some other area compared to a cruiser which doesn't get it 2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said: concealment module Purely tier based. You are tier 8 or higher? you can mount it, and it's your own fault if you were dumb enough not to use it (or if you preferred the rudder shift mod instead on ships that can mount it) 2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said: radar is the only thing out of everything you've mentioned that should actually be balanced due to how ridiculously high snowballing impact it can have. Then again, just because a potato in his range build Missouri has a radar doesn't exactly make up for the other team getting a CB setup DesMemes 2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said: It's more the ship role and capabilities that should be counted It's already done. A DD will require +/-1 DD in enemy team. same for BBs. And especially with mirrored CVs. Only CAs are free to go to up to 2 more on one side. That's exactly as specific as it needs to be. 2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said: another issue are tier 8 CVs in tier 10 games ... git gud 2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said: Basically the top tier MM will take longer since you can Q for up to 3 minutes until the behavior for you changes. The games will not be more balanced ... How thick are you to fail to understand? Instead of team A getting 2x t10 1x t9 and 4x t8 team B getting 2x t10 and 5x t9 we will have team A getting 2x t10 3x t9 and 2x t8 team B getting 2x t10 3x t9 and 2x t8 Oh look, same ships, same count, just spread through teams more evenly?! HERESY! DARK MAGIC! IMPOSSIBLE! QUEUE TIMES WILL BE 50 MILLION TIMES LONGER NOW Finally got it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[ALYEN] Hugh_Ruka Players 2,240 posts 4,123 battles Report post #9 Posted April 16, 2018 7 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said: Literally exact same as previously: Reveal hidden contents Lets say it's tier 7 game. Tier 7 ship count won't differ by more than 1. So then, lets say, team A has 4 tier 7 ships. That means team B will have 3 / 4 / 5 of them. So far so good, right? Now we get to the "not top tier" - MM doesn't care if you are 5 or 6, you are both seen as equal. That means that one team can get full of 5s while the other one gets full of 6s As it stands game of 4x t7 + 8x t5 fighting vs 5x t7 + 7x t6 would be a legit "nothing wrong with this" MM Was it that hard to figure out? Tiers 2 through 4 it's already working like that because they have only +/-1 tier spread (a.k.a. the "not top tier" part doesn't split into multiple tiers) And since tier 1 can meet only tier 1 it's completely unaffected by any MM changes that aren't made to tier 1 specifically In other words this affects 6 out of the 10 tiers we have (5 through 9 directly and then 10 because they will meet those "not top tier" ships), and I'm pretty sure that would include far far larger amount of player base than tiers 1 through 4. Also I find it kind-of funny that it affects the zone where currently 87.3% of games you've played are, and unless you plan to go on a tier 4 or lower sealclubbing rampage that % will just keep growing is a balancing factor, one of many. if cruiser receives this it will be lacking in some other area compared to a cruiser which doesn't get it Purely tier based. You are tier 8 or higher? you can mount it, and it's your own fault if you were dumb enough not to use it (or if you preferred the rudder shift mod instead on ships that can mount it) is the only thing out of everything you've mentioned that should actually be balanced due to how ridiculously high snowballing impact it can have. Then again, just because a potato in his range build Missouri has a radar doesn't exactly make up for the other team getting a CB setup DesMemes It's already done. A DD will require +/-1 DD in enemy team. same for BBs. And especially with mirrored CVs. Only CAs are free to go to up to 2 more on one side. That's exactly as specific as it needs to be. git gud How thick are you to fail to understand? Instead of team A getting 2x t10 1x t9 and 4x t8 team B getting 2x t10 and 5x t9 we will have team A getting 2x t10 3x t9 and 2x t8 team B getting 2x t10 3x t9 and 2x t8 Oh look, same ships, same count, just spread through teams more evenly?! HERESY! DARK MAGIC! IMPOSSIBLE! QUEUE TIMES WILL BE 50 MILLION TIMES LONGER NOW Finally got it? Why do I have the impression that you are talking about something else ? Well whatever ... let's agree that we disagree :-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wilkatis_LV ∞ Players 5,061 posts 8,562 battles Report post #10 Posted April 16, 2018 4 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said: Why do I have the impression that you are talking about something else ? Well whatever ... let's agree that we disagree :-) I'm talking about what they changed in MM for this test, what you are talking about I have no idea. As I said, it's all in the patch notes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[ALYEN] Hugh_Ruka Players 2,240 posts 4,123 battles Report post #11 Posted April 16, 2018 29 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said: I'm talking about what they changed in MM for this test, what you are talking about I have no idea. As I said, it's all in the patch notes I am talking about why it will not help ... I can read WHAT they changed, but their intention and reasoning seems not quite up there ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TWS] HelldiverGr Players 123 posts 22,205 battles Report post #12 Posted April 16, 2018 One day I saw 2 x Atlantas at same team, while our team have had one myoko and one schors? Those 2 Atlanta's were not in a division, so it would have been good to split the Atlantas in between teams. So you have one slow reloader Myoko versus 2 x Atlantas. If you have spllited the Atlantas it would have been nicer ,more fair MM Just Tiering is not fair MM. Also T10's can play alone. Without 9's . Like the T1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wilkatis_LV ∞ Players 5,061 posts 8,562 battles Report post #13 Posted April 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, HelldiverGr said: One day I saw 2 x Atlantas at same team, while our team have had one myoko and one schors? 2x t7 cruiser vs 2x t7 cruiser Radars are not balanced between teams, and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to get balanced between them Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TWS] HelldiverGr Players 123 posts 22,205 battles Report post #14 Posted April 16, 2018 18 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said: 2x t7 cruiser vs 2x t7 cruiser Radars are not balanced between teams, and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to get balanced between them Obviously not only the radars in this situation but 2 x fire spamming Atlantas... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wilkatis_LV ∞ Players 5,061 posts 8,562 battles Report post #15 Posted April 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, HelldiverGr said: Obviously not only the radars in this situation but 2 x fire spamming Atlantas... So? Slow shells, high & obvious arcs, short range, low caliber shells that do barely any dmg (if they manage to pen you in the 1st place) and that have to land a ton of them for a single fire (on average Atlanta needs 29 HE hits on a t7 ship to start 1 fire) Now Myoko - much tankier cruiser, with almost 50% extra range, faster (easier to land) shells that definitely have enough HE pen for pretty much everything (well, maybe not a couple of t9 BB decks), higher dmg per hit and you need just 8 shells on average to set a fire on a t7 ship. It's not the ship, it's the potato behind it that matters Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TWS] HelldiverGr Players 123 posts 22,205 battles Report post #16 Posted April 16, 2018 I cannot disagree with you in the way you put it... But this only IF the Myoko see the Atlanta. You know it, you ve been there. You get burned without having the opportunity to spot them, they fire long curved shots behind islands. Many shots. Anyway my conversation had to do with at least splitting the Atlantas instead of having them in same team. And yes they might not ever hit the Myoko, but they will play their part by spotting DDs or setting on fire unaware BBs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[XTR3M] biker_618 Players 134 posts 9,987 battles Report post #17 Posted April 16, 2018 I guess that MM issue with radar ships is because of ships that have radar at disposal but not using them as they have to give up on something more important to them. RN T8+, vast majority is using smoke so can they be really considered as radar ships? On the other side for example, what would you gave up on upon Des Moines or Moskva not to have radar? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TWS] HelldiverGr Players 123 posts 22,205 battles Report post #18 Posted April 18, 2018 Never said to remove radars or anything, I am just saying 2 x Atlantas waiting for match. DO NOT put them in same team. 2 Belfasts waiting for match, do not put them in same team. you can't have 2 Belfasts in one side and 2 myoko at the other. (Well I know you can cause this is what is happening atm). And two stock Myokos for example? No way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[HOTEL] 300ConfirmedKills Players 541 posts 17,276 battles Report post #19 Posted April 18, 2018 I don't like the idea of perfectly mirrored teams in Random matches. It makes sense in competitive modes, but I like some variability in Random matches. The MM could be improved by preventing players from being bottom tier constantly, but otherwise being more flexible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[AAO] Paimentaja Players 381 posts 18,418 battles Report post #20 Posted April 19, 2018 6 hours ago, 300ConfirmedKills said: The MM could be improved by preventing players from being bottom tier constantly, but otherwise being more flexible. It should be that way already. IIRC it should be that after four games you will not be bottom tier. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
