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Ubertron_X

[Discussion] Remove Situational Awareness skill from BB (and CV)?

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Hi folks!


This idea of mine was floating around in my head for some time now, however nothing is set in stone and I also want to hear you opinion if such a measure could indeed help improving the current gameplay as maybe I am missing some important points.


So why do I suggest to remove (or rather suppress) the free Situational Awareness skill for BB's (and potentially also for CV's)? There have been several complaints about BB's gameplay and their general impact on gameplay for other classes that I want to tackle all at once, using a simple but - hopefully - elegant fix.

 


1. BB survivability

 

There are many complaints that BB's simply survive too long, even from Wargaming themselves. With this change CA's and especially DD's torpedo strikes / ambushes and flanking maneuvres are much more likely to suceeed. Also it will be harder for BB's to gauge if they can turn safely or if other BB's will be able to get their volleys in while they are still mid-turn.

 

=> BB survivability reduced

 

2. BB camouflage values

 

There are many complaints about low BB visibility, however low camouflage values are especially helpful if you definitely know if you are spotted or not. If you don't know if you are spotted it may be harder to surprise targets while on the offense and much harder to safely "vanish" while on the defence.

 

=> BB camouflage impact reduced


3. BB team dependance

 

There are many complaints that BB's are too self-dependent, needing no other class to be able to do well reliably. With this suggested change it will be much harder for BB's to determine if there is an enemy near and/or it's supposed position. BB would become more reliant on CA and DD to support them and to provide directions, even if they feature hydroaccustics or radar themselves.

 

=> BB team dependance increased

 

4. Class balance

 

There are many complaints that the class balance is messed up, with DD's being no direct counter to BB's anymore and CA's in a bad spot because of low BB visibility and general squishiness. The removal of the skill from BB's (and potentially also from CV's) will thus be an indirect buff for DD's , the supposed direct counter for BB's, as well as for CA's.

 

=> Class (im-)balance shifted away from BB


5. WG premium policy

 

Last but not least this "blanket change" of game mechanics is not likely to interfere with Wargamings premium policy, as no ship will be directly nerved and the presence or absence of this skill is - at least as far as I am concerned - not cruical for BB gameplay (in comparison to e.g. smoke firing changes for Kutusov and Belfast).
 

=> "No premium ships have been be hurt while making this change..."

 

 

So what do you think?

 

 

Best regards,

Ubertron_X


P.S.: I suggested to extend the removal (or rather suppression) of the Situational Awareness skill to CV's as well as in my opinion it is plain stupid that a CV that can not take care of its surrounding waters gets an extra noob protection. If a DD or CA get's within effective strike distance of a CV undetected that CV's should righfully be in trouble.

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i think it is pretty pointless cause 90% of the time you can assume bb is spotted (shooting, getting shot at, or even having minimap map awareness of where dd may be). only denies info that dd/ca is 12-26km away from your ship.

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1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

How would this interact with the PT/IFA skills?

Good question...

 

For IFA I think there is almost no impact as the alarm would still be able to go off, regardless if you have a spotted symbol displayed or not.

 

PT is the more important question, however I also see no need for big changes. Remember that a torpedo lock will not trigger PT (at least it is supposed to not to), so any DD or CA that plays smart will not radio their presence prematurely.

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1 minute ago, robihr said:

i think it is pretty pointless cause 90% of the time you can assume bb is spotted (shooting, getting shot at, or even having minimap map awareness of where dd may be). only denies info that dd/ca is 12-26km away from your ship.

So you are supporting cap in your Missouri and an enemy DD was spotted some 7km away behind some isles but is invisible now. When will you trigger radar with or without SA skill? Huge difference...

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Before the skill was given to everyone for free I never ran it on BBs. Assume you're always spotted and play accordingly. Plus, if you have shells coming at you - it's going to be obvious.

 

"Problem" (for the lack of a better term) I can see this causing is giving another excuse for windowlickers as to why they should stay back and snipe instead of pushing with their team. "But me not now if me spotter, how me doge turp from fog if me not now it there?"

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8 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Before the skill was given to everyone for free I never ran it on BBs. Assume you're always spotted and play accordingly. Plus, if you have shells coming at you - it's going to be obvious.

 

"Problem" (for the lack of a better term) I can see this causing is giving another excuse for windowlickers as to why they should stay back and snipe instead of pushing with their team. "But me not now if me spotter, how me doge turp from fog if me not now it there?"

I agree that the later could be the case, however this argument is valid for *any* changes to BB gameplay, even if you just buff all other classes and leave BB untouched. "Hepaderp CA and DD much stronker now, I stay back..."

 

And regarding the first argument point taken that there are definitely two BB philosophies. With camouflage values as low as 11km to 12.5km (when using the skill) I usually prefer to chose when I am detected in a BB and when not (in between my 30 secs of reload at least 10 seconds of invis mode possible).

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Removing situational awareness skill from BB? No.

 

I'd rather they improve cruiser gameplay then doing more nerfs. Buffs are generally better received and while in the middle of grinding a line, having it nerfed will not motivate poeple to continu playing WoWS and may cause some people to leave or play less.

 

I'd say NO to these nerfs in general, buff cruisers instead and maybe undo some of the nerfs that had hit DDs earlier. Personally I don't even see why DDs should be buffed vs BBs?

I do think the conceilment of some of these BBs is kinda too good vs cruisers, but I'd rather see cruisers receive better conceilment values instead.

 

BB being too independent? Afaict DDs are already more independent.

 

Class imbalance due to BBs? Instead of nerfing BBs, buff cruisers. Is a buff to DDs actually necessary?

 

The WG premium policy is a very good reason to not nerf BBs, but to buff cruisers instead.

 

And I don't see why removing SA skill from CV would help the game.

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I'll have to disagree with this, as the only outcome I see is BB' camping even harder.

 

In my view WG needs to stop with this Nerfbat vicious circle if we want to see any significant positive change to gameplay.

 

You want to better balance BB vs CA/DD? Then take out as much RNG as possible from the equation:

 

1. Buff BB Sigma-dispertion across the board - Less 20km+ lolcitas and for once actually reward skilful aiming in BBs.

2. Buff CA/DD manoeuvrability across the board - WASD hax even more effective now, you can actually dodge medium-long range salvos!1!!!111!

3. ???

4. Profit.

 

P.S. Not releasing gimmicky premiums that encourage and take blatant advantage of the diseased meta you have created to make a quick buck would also help cough*Asashio*cough.

 

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I vote no. I really like it....If I know nobody is aiming at me I can show a full broadside without the fear of incoming shells. I use this skill on almost all my ships

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2 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:

So you are supporting cap in your Missouri and an enemy DD was spotted some 7km away behind some isles but is invisible now. When will you trigger radar with or without SA skill? Huge difference...

 

and there is other ship spotting you from 11km away and enemy dd is behind island and SA doesnt play a role in this case. you can always nitpick specific situations.

 

btw what i meant with my post is that having or not having SA doesnt make any difference in playstyle of 90% of bb gameplay (cause you are perma spotted). and other 9.9% is when you need to stealth for better broadside shot or to retreat and 0.1% is when you need to radar dd with missouri :Smile-_tongue: it isnt nerf at least for average bb player

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33 minutes ago, domen3 said:

I use this skill on almost all my ships

Huh??? U disabled default skill at some ships somehow?

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and how exactly would this improve gameplay? The main thing this would do is make BBs (at least the somewhat competent one, would not have all that much impact on some of those lobotomized zombies you see occasionally) play more conservatively because you take away one of the tools they have to measure their aggression. So, they'll just be further back as a default. Not exactly what I'd call an improvement in gameplay, for anyone involved...

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17 minutes ago, Profilus said:

Huh??? U disabled default skill at some ships somehow?

Fck...confused it with the other one

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When it was first introduced I recall it was a third tier perk.  it should be a fourth now.

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3 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:

1. BB survivability

2. BB camouflage values
4. Class balance

 

So what do you think?

 

Honestly, on those points I'd like WG to rather change the way Concealment Expert works.
Right now CE gives a 10% buff to DD concealment, 12% to cruisers, and even larger buffs to BBs and CVs.
I'd propose that they just make it a flat 10% buff. BBs already get a benefit in absolute terms because their base detection is already so large.

It adresses stealth BBs a bit and also slightly reduces the whole 'BB that outspots same tier cruiser' nonsense.

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Nah.

The class imbalance is BBs being too strong against CRUISERS and the change you propose is going to make BBs more vulnerable to torpboat DDs. But torpboat DDs are strong enough against BBs as they are - not to mention that almost all BBs worth torping (the ones within effective torping range and threatening to your team and/or objectives) are spotted by more than just you and your other DD buddies.

 

What I WOULD consider, actually, is removal of situational awareness from CVs. CVs don't usually expect to be spotted - and if one of them just pretends to be an airfield, never moving an inch from spawn, he doesn't deserve the early warning that he got spotted. DDs should get a chance of ambusing an airfield when they spot the idiot and have a set of long-range torps ready. Remaining stationary for the whole match, even if you are a CV, SHOULD be punishable.

 

Then again, such a change runs the risk of serving as an encouragement of CV-hunting and I don't exactly miss the times when half the DDs were trying to go on a round-map cruise, spending 2/3 of the match duration trying to find the enemy CV.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:

[Discussion] Remove Situational Awareness skill from BB (and CV)?

It is a fair suggestion, but it will meet resistance.  Anything that smacks of balance with regards to BBs will inevitably lead to claims that BBs will camp harder.

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21 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

It is a fair suggestion, but it will meet resistance.  Anything that smacks of balance with regards to BBs will inevitably lead to claims that BBs will camp harder.

It is for sure not the ultima ratio, just trying to think a little out of the box.

 

23 hours ago, Hedgehog1963 said:

When it was first introduced I recall it was a third tier perk.  it should be a fourth now.

I think it even was a first tier perk, thats the reason why everybody heavily used it and we finally got it for free...

 

Spoiler

x6VnIlV.jpg

 

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5 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

I think it even was a first tier perk, thats the reason why everybody heavily used it and we finally got it for free...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

x6VnIlV.jpg

 

Yes.  Thanks.

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1 hour ago, Ubertron_X said:

I think it even was a first tier perk, thats the reason why everybody heavily used it and we finally got it for free...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

x6VnIlV.jpg

 

It did compete with other useful first tier perks, however. And still it was commonly picked, often as the first pick skill.

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6 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:

Hi folks!


This idea of mine was floating around in my head for some time now, however nothing is set in stone and I also want to hear you opinion if such a measure could indeed help improving the current gameplay as maybe I am missing some important points.


So why do I suggest to remove (or rather suppress) the free Situational Awareness skill for BB's (and potentially also for CV's)? There have been several complaints about BB's gameplay and their general impact on gameplay for other classes that I want to tackle all at once, using a simple but - hopefully - elegant fix.

 

6 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:

 


1. BB survivability

 

There are many complaints that BB's simply survive too long, even from Wargaming themselves. With this change CA's and especially DD's torpedo strikes / ambushes and flanking maneuvres are much more likely to suceeed. Also it will be harder for BB's to gauge if they can turn safely or if other BB's will be able to get their volleys in while they are still mid-turn.

 

=> BB survivability reduced

If you get ambushed from behind an island, the attacker usually has no line of sight on you anyway. So what does this have to do with the SI skill? Furthermore (and you will hear that a lot from me), you will only punish BB captains who actually try to get close and support their team mates, i.e. the people you WANT to have on your team. The redline sniper doesn't care if he is spotted or not because no one can really shoot him anyway until it is too late.

 

6 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:

2. BB camouflage values

 

There are many complaints about low BB visibility, however low camouflage values are especially helpful if you definitely know if you are spotted or not. If you don't know if you are spotted it may be harder to surprise targets while on the offense and much harder to safely "vanish" while on the defence.

 

=> BB camouflage impact reduced

While I agree that the (possible) visibility of SOME BBs is too low, why take away SI instead of balancing the respective ships by, let's say, giving BBs no access to the Concealment System or lowering its bonus for BBs or raise the visibility of the respective BBs?

Also, as I told you, you mainly punish players who like to go in with their BBs while instead of the redline snipers.

 

6 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:


3. BB team dependance

 

There are many complaints that BB's are too self-dependent, needing no other class to be able to do well reliably. With this suggested change it will be much harder for BB's to determine if there is an enemy near and/or it's supposed position. BB would become more reliant on CA and DD to support them and to provide directions, even if they feature hydroaccustics or radar themselves.

 

=> BB team dependance increased

Do you really want to rely on random players more than necessary? Look at the game chat. How often do you see someone pinging at possible DD locations or anything like that? Maybe once in a hundred games? I doubt that will if BBs ask for spotting/directions. The next thing is that someone who spots a BB doesn't necessarily have to spot the DD or CA in front of it, hence the BB will get the info about the enemy with a delay - if at all.

Also, when was your last time trying to go against two or three enemies in your BB without support because your team mates siucided in or ran away? BBs might be self-dependent in a way that they can take a lot of damage but usually that is countered by the higher DPM of CAs, bad mobility compared to other ship classes and RNG-dependent guns.

 

6 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:

4. Class balance

 

There are many complaints that the class balance is messed up, with DD's being no direct counter to BB's anymore and CA's in a bad spot because of low BB visibility and general squishiness. The removal of the skill from BB's (and potentially also from CV's) will thus be an indirect buff for DD's , the supposed direct counter for BB's, as well as for CA's.

 

=> Class (im-)balance shifted away from BB

Same as for point 1-3. You make BB players hang back more (even though for some this might not be possible) because they have to depend on random team mates who usually don't give a flying f about the needs of others. You don't solve the BB problem but you worsen it by discouraging players to push if they don't have one to three allies in front of them to cover every possible angle.

 

6 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:


5. WG premium policy

 

Last but not least this "blanket change" of game mechanics is not likely to interfere with Wargamings premium policy, as no ship will be directly nerved and the presence or absence of this skill is - at least as far as I am concerned - not cruical for BB gameplay (in comparison to e.g. smoke firing changes for Kutusov and Belfast).
 

=> "No premium ships have been be hurt while making this change..."

Another change of game mechanics, or rather a global change, would be to raise the visibility of all BBs or to change the bonus of the concealment expert skill for BBs etc. There are other possible ways, so this is not really a strong argument.

 

6 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:

 

So what do you think?

 

 

Best regards,

Ubertron_X


P.S.: I suggested to extend the removal (or rather suppression) of the Situational Awareness skill to CV's as well as in my opinion it is plain stupid that a CV that can not take care of its surrounding waters gets an extra noob protection. If a DD or CA get's within effective strike distance of a CV undetected that CV's should righfully be in trouble.

I think the main complaint points are the number of BBs per battle and the significant influence of RNG which is bad for both sides coupled with sniping BBs, none of which you really tackle with your suggestion. At least not directely. Sure, there are minor ones like a low visibility of SOME BBs but they are not the core problem.

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Maybe I am derping hard, but if this is the skill that tells you how many people are aiming at you, it costs one skill point. It's not free.

 

And to the point, it's a skill available to all at a cost of 1 skill point. Why make one class not be able to use it? This is especially bizarre as it's not even the normal pick for BBs until the captain has at least 10 skill points. The module survivability is normally the tier 1 pick for BB captains.

 

If this is how it goes, why not make all BBs blind, have them randomly lose control of steering, and illuminate in the sea a clear path for torps that are guaranteed to hit? Maybe even introduce one ship that can torp 16Km away invisible torps that are quicker than the fastest speed boat too...

 

Maybe the ideal meta next is DDs and CAs and triple CVs. Let's see how much fun it is without big cluncky targets around to hit at max range...

 

Every class has a purpose in this game. Occasionally there are people that do not play them the conventional way, some more often than others, but ultimately it's an ecosystem that is essential. Nerf any class to the ground and the whole game suffers. The only exception is CVs. Until they are reworked it's the only class whose absence actually improves gameplay enjoyment for all classes.

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