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Full IJN BB and BC tree (Done)

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Hi all 

 

Around the beginning of March, I posted here a post gathering help for a project. The thing itself is a total rearrange of the IJN capital ship tree. As my community closed (the Spanish forum I mean), I was a bit hesitant to post it here. Then I decided to finish it first in our new external forum we made; but now I think is time to post it here for you English speaking guys to enjoy. I apologize in advance because I may do some mistakes, which I hope you understand. And finally to end with this intro, I would love to see the people who helped me on the first thread @NothingButTheRain and @1MajorKoenig read this, finally done, job. I hope you all like it.

 

(A quick note: I decided to pick the most balanced ships/projects rather than trying to play the balance game with different years or configurations for individual ships or ship classes; that is why there is quite a few difficult choices) 

 

 

Ship list:

 

-Kawachi Tier 3 BB 

-Myogi Tier 4 BC 

-Harima Tier 4 BB 

-Hiei Tier 5 BC

-Iwami Tier 5 BB 

-Tsurugi Tier 6 BC Fast BB

-Fuso Tier 6 BB

-Unzen Tier 7 BC Fast BB

-Nagato Tier 7 BB

-Amagi Tier 8 BC-Fast BB

-Tosa Tier 8 BB

-Owari Tier 9 Fast BB

-Izumo Tier 9 BB

-Mikawa Tier 10 Fast BB

-Yamato Tier 10 BB

 

 

 

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We start with the Kawachi. Now instead of leading to the Myogi, it does offer 2 choices: the Myogi and the Harima. Let’s begin with the old one.

D43F1354-8559-4C74-99D6-22F41115F5D7.thumb.jpeg.ef6382937adbe30a474e2759958f2e93.jpeg

 

There isn’t much to change with this ship. Just a simple ammo change. Now it uses the type 5 AP but this is far from perfect. Togheter with less barrels and a dispersion big enough for a cruiser to sail between the shells, this poor ship is a pain for new players. All in all, I would only give her the improved type 91 of the ww2 Kongo and that is it. Also I this tier we already see the gimmick of the BC line. Good long range AA but meh as you get closer (think of German BBs).

 

Now with the first (but sadly not last for real life purists) project. Some of you may know her from a Tzoli post back in the day. I personally contacted with him via DV and he is helping me a lot, although these days he seems a bit overwhelmed with projects. Still, I give to you the Harima.

21A1F80B-C008-4916-A04B-2AD43A9C49B2.thumb.jpeg.1b206160c596f0688c467607ff86923c.jpeg

As you can see, this is the A55 Fuso preliminary study. I chose it because it has the trait for te level, in the form of a lot of 305mm guns. I personally preferred this one with the third and fourth turrets arranged like the Fuso and not another design that resembled the Ise because I felt that she needs to show more broadside to fire a salvo. The basics of angle and saving your shots is similar to our nowadays Fuso and is a nice practice for the tier 6 ship. 

As you would suspect, it should get fictional modernization to fit in. I think of 4 120s plus a couple of 25mm and a mini pagoda. The looks would be like the 1920s Fuso.

 

Now we continue with the BC tree. Our old loved tier 5 BC.....Hiei? Yep; as some of you may know by now, the Kongo model is actually her sister Hiei in 1942. You can tell by her more compact looking pagoda.

6CEBE783-FB07-4B81-AA1C-C72CE489F561.thumb.png.bb0e219a60f5e2b712ee2292a279bbbb.png

 

As for changes, there isn’t actually. The ship will remain the same and a fan favorite.

 

Now its time again for another Fuso prototype. This time is the A57 design that I christened Iwami.

DD9900DA-231E-439C-9142-08F730A6D178.thumb.jpeg.6f039ae5d33cddfa273601fde90460dd.jpeg

 

You may see why I chose this layout. Is an IJN New York and as for the tree it fits just right. Compared to the American BB, is faster and should have more range tanks to a fictional reconstruction in the 1930s. A pagoda tower plus a couple of 25 mm mounts should do the trick. We would remove the bow funnel and add a platform for the light AA there. Overall I’m satisfied with this choice and I hope you are too.

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After the starters, we proceed to the mid levels. Here we found 2 old friends and 2 new comrades that may be a fresh air to the tier, although one may be problematic at best.

The tier 6 of the slow BB tree is the Fuso. Do I have to say more? Is an iconic warship and there isn’t much to do to her. Maybe add a couple of 25mm mounts to keep the tradition of filling every possible place with light AA but I would let that to WG.

 

DA997E70-AC45-417D-A7E0-CC03388EFB05.thumb.png.cc2f5f12b8c6be8b2717de8f328b3a6b.png

In my post back at the Spanish forum, we discussed about the option of using the Kongo in the 1944 refit. Although it could be perfect from historical perspective, the Ingame one was a bit of sketchy. Yes you have more AA but that is all. The amount of guns (even after a sigma and dispersion buff) plus the concealment and armor made her difficult to use. In the end I decided to left her out and maybe introduce the Burning Love as a premium of the BC class (think of as an alternative to Mutsu).

So I needed a Kongo replacement; and the great designer Hiraga gave me the perfect choice: I present to you the Tsurugi

8380A4F7-1626-4887-8811-ECA30BCC2644.thumb.jpeg.fad6f96b0791ea0e35c002f14689de48.jpeg

 

This is Tzoli drawing of the 30K tons E design for replacing the Kongo around 1928/29. Although the final version had 410s, I decided to use 356s for game balance. The ship would get her mid-late war AA mounts. The 120s in the superestructure should be replaced by 127s and the casemates removed for more mid ranged AA. The speed should be bumped from the 26kts to 30 and the armor reduced to a mere 220-250mm thick belt. 

We reach tier 7 and we meet the last built BB of Japan before the Yamato. The Nagato class is a beautiful design with a powerful and balanced appearance. Sadly, Ingame is kind of a turd. The changes should be minimal and may be described as a QoL buff. The reload should decrease to 30 seconds and that is it. This change is due the next warship you see in this topic.6D445FDB-3232-40D0-8D35-84D4660570DA.thumb.png.fe2d45c28c99202463e22dbe8c87c49e.png

 

I personally hated the way WG handled the Ashitaka. They decided to lower an Amagi and even then they did it wrong. They left out things that could make her interesting and created a ship that is plain simple but boring at the same time (or looks like it cause I don’t have one). 

So I decided to use a fictional fifth Amagi class ship with a couple of nerfs to don’t brake the balance. Enter the Unzen:

1110B4D3-16AC-4CAB-AA92-948581997503.thumb.jpeg.e5fbb35bc15df81869baa55c5ff87380.jpeg

(from now on I may need to use external drawings because I lack the “real” ones)

To picture our newcomer, think of tweaked Amagi. The reload of the guns would be a long (for IJN standards) 33’5 seconds. The dispersion should be good and the range around the 18,8km without plane; but the sigma is worst than the average at 1.7 and the armor is quite bad, even with a moderate turtleback included. Sounds familiar? It should because is the problem that Kii faces. In this lower tier should be less of a drawback but the 25mm bow and stern is there too.

Edited by FrankvC_Jr
Tiers 6 7 done
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And finally we get to the big boys of tiers 8 9 and 10. Here is where we really get the feeling of each line and get the things interesting. But shall we continue with it? I really hope you do.

 

The tier 8 of the slow BB is obvious at best. A follow on if the Nagato class is a logical and balanced way to progress. As such, the Tosa is the next big step towards the Yamato.

FE13328D-19AA-47E8-A645-17EDBFDD945A.thumb.jpeg.79b7eeb089b3c400786602d014e75aee.jpeg

This is a 44 version of the Tosa. You can see the upgraded AA and radar fit. This ship should be comparable to our nowadays Amagi. A good TDS plus 28kts speed should  give her a comfortable playstyle. The secondary guns have now a 7km base range and the AA is fair at best. Following the trend started at tier 4, the big damage comes from the 25mm mounts placed all over the ship. The 127s are the same as for DPS but has 2 mounts less than the BC. A good overall ship.

 

Now is time for the last BC ever designed by the IJN. The Amagi class is a fearsome opponent and a pleasure to play with. The changes proposed are quite a few. To begin with, the armor and overall survivality should be nerfed. The HP will stay as it is but the TDS (which is a trademark of her) should be lost to the Tosa. The turtleback would save you sometimes but you can’t brawl as effectively as before. Well, you would think so right? Then the big surprise comes. From this ship upwards, the fats BB sub tree would get torpedos!! Arranged in a similar fashion of the premium Kii, the Amagi and her successors will receive an armaments of metal fishes. The tier 8 and 9 would get quad launchers equipped with the fishes of same tier cruisers. This torps work the same way as the Tirpitz ones, they act more of a defensive weapon despite her good range. They can be launched as you kite away and nuke the enemy if you get to brawl. Just be careful with the armor.

470CDB10-DA9B-4383-A1AC-59A9F9AD9CDA.jpeg.61674afb1b26ebf7dbfa3098ca8204ad.jpeg

 

Tier 9 is a level of big changes. Here is where some ship trees have some of the best or worst ships for their entire branch. The following battleship is famous for being a very difficult one. 

The Izumo has long been a difficult choice. Although most people blame her for being little more than a sailing piece of s***, the ship itself serves a function. It teaches you the bow focused gameplay needed to succeed in the Yamato. Sadly, it doesn’t have much going for it and now that we have the Musashi, the old IJN Nelson is just not worth it. That is why I felt that she needs an overhaul.

0757C72D-4954-4684-9489-A6C6056A6B69.jpeg.9eb45b606aff9e13dcf6138e53e179ca.jpeg

Here are some of the proposed layouts of the Yamato preliminary studies. The current Izumo is the A140J2 which has all triple turrets on the bow, with the third gun facing backwards. This layout is quite bad for the gameplay, limiting the use of the number 3 turret. That is why I decided to update the model to a “Yamato 410”. Just think of a small Yamato with 410s and no 155s. The secondary guns would only be the 127s arranged 6 on the side with a 7km base range. The overall look is like a Yamato but using 410s. A IJN Iowa, slower and with decent guns but better secondary and TDS. 

 

As for the fast BB tier 9 spot, I use the Owari. This Kii class is truly the tier 9 BB we dreamed of before WG releasing the premium version. The basic design is similar to the premium. The 100mm of the Akizuki and Bofors make her AA the punchiest of all the IJN till now. The armor is similar to the tier 8 Tosa except from the TDS (worse) and turtleback (better) but with the improved speed (30kts) of the preceding BCs. The torps help you deal with close range fights but the big deal are the guns. Compared to Amagi, the 410s have their reload buffed to 28 seconds and a sigma of 1.9. Finally, he gets a bit more range, up to 22km.

E9C0F785-A77B-4F54-913D-C6C08EEA36EF.jpeg.b9490381e60b737aa552a5ab30bd81d7.jpeg

 

Its time to end. It has been a difficult task translating all by hand because Google really doesn’t help. I really hope I’m being clear enough and if not, pls tell me so I can help you. Without further ado, let’s end this tree.

As for the slow BBs, the answer is obvious. The Yamato class was and is the pinnacle of the IJN real BBs.

B675CE8B-7D86-4C01-8B82-E2B726894E0F.thumb.jpeg.6356f80bb5e4268f724b04998f8d7724.jpeg

That is why I don’t change her imperial majesty much. Just a quick consideration. In this era of underwater citadels and broadside showing without (much) paddling, the Yamato has the weakest side of all tier 10s. The main belt is currently counting as a citadel and I personally hate how the most armored ship ever built (in real life that’s it) is as soft as a Minotaur to BB or even Cruiser guns at ranges where she can only land a couple of salvos which doesn’t sink anything unless they find the citadel which for ships like Conqueror (or Kurfürst at close range) is impossible. Togheter with a painfully slow turret traverse, this forces you to stay bow on and camp like a champ. The changes I propose are simple. Make her citadel work the same way as Montana. Lower it to a bit above the water line and that is it. You can still citadel a Montana if he plays bad, make Yamato have that too.

 

36EB71CC-09DE-4C63-BBD6-A59DF44C9AE6.jpeg.7e3162d982847f0061144ced3f3b9cc0.jpeg

049CE2BE-CCD0-4154-B7D3-05F57172B684.jpeg.7c0e2059430f251813d75e98591ba33c.jpeg

259AAB09-C530-46D9-B3E9-DB574224C92C.jpeg.2f58680e2c59c8059211d1a1ae3eb2cb.jpeg

5F9A52EF-D2F4-4C04-8FB5-AF09DA7BC420.jpeg.99b1549e6f9a955a357b1c8b8f0d6b65.jpeg

(The Kurfürst is with turtleback)

 

And what is going to be the top of the BC branch? The number 13 right? Well yes, but is also isn’t. The Mikawa is definitely the #13, but more of a redesign of it. Instead of updating the design and adding a fictional modernization, I decided to build the ship to a 1940s version of it.

The hull should be long and with a bulbous bow from the Yamato class. Dual rudder and 4 propellers give this ship an awesome top speed of 33,5kts (even faster than some CAs). The ship itself isn’t well protected. With a maximum thickness at the belt of only 330mm (sloped 15 degrees), the ship will suffer at long range if she shows a perfect side. That is why you need to keep moving and dancing to avoid shells and torps. Reminds of a Kongo and it should feel that way. The big thing is the guns: although the 4x2 seems outdated and difficult to make it work, I’m sure that when you hear the caliber you will forget. 460mm L45 shells firing up to 24km. The Yamato guns are awesome and they should have their place in the ultimate fast battleship too. The dispersion would be god like with a great 240m at max range but the sigma of 2.05 prevents it from being a laser. The turrets would need 48 seconds to turn and a base reload of 30 seconds is standard.

The AA is simply spectacular for IJN levels. It has 16 100mm barrels arranged in 8x2 gun mounts. If we add the 40mm Bofors Chi we get a fearsome AA ship. A division with a CV could be extremely trollish. The bad side is that her secondary guns are lacking but with the torps it should not matter much. It has 5 per side and have a range only 500m less than Zao. They are as fast as the cruiser but the damage is lower at 19500.  

This ship is great for the kind of gameplay you have on the Kongo and Amagi nowadays. Stay at the back and punch enemy cruisers, run and kite while focused and in the late game go hunt damaged BBs. I personally think this could give a bit of fresh air to high tier meta.

 

1920px-IJN_battleship_design_of_Project-

(Last drawing provided by @ColonelPete)

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Looks interesting.

Has the Iwami 356mm guns?

Apart from long range gunning, is there any other specific ability BC should have in your opinion?

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3 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Looks interesting.

Has the Iwami 356mm guns?

Apart from long range gunning, is there any other specific ability BC should have in your opinion?

Glad you like it so far. Hope is clear enough with my English.

 

Yep the Iwami is a 356mm gun for primary guns, and the secondary are 152s in case you are wondering. As for the BCs, I would like to ask you to wait. I’m translating all by hand and even reducing a bit the texts to fit in :cap_book::Smile_hiding:; but don’t worry. I will finish in a couple of minutes :Smile_honoring:.

 

 

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I like the idea of line-splitting to enlarge the choice before integrating complete fantasy lines. Especially for "Larger" naval powers. 

What i am not sure about is how u balance BB/BC in regards of matchmaking.

Besides that thumps up for the effort. :Smile_great:

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22 hours ago, Donar79 said:

I like the idea of line-splitting to enlarge the choice before integrating complete fantasy lines. Especially for "Larger" naval powers. 

What i am not sure about is how u balance BB/BC in regards of matchmaking.

Besides that thumps up for the effort. :Smile_great:

The MM should remain the same. As for now the BCs and BBs are counted as one class, this would be the same. Just that some are faster than others and so on. The problem would be how to balance ships like the Unzen xD.

 

And I’m more of a fan to line splits rather than just make up things. The problem is that I would need a lot of time to do the COMPLETE TREE REWORK :Smile_ohmy: That will include CLs, Akizuki line to tier X and CVs made from conversions (like Akagi) 8 lines in total!! 8 freaking completed branches!!!!

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Thats what i meant with balance in MM. BC are counted as BBs. This could be problematic since they are not the same. But counting them as Cruisers (in MM) would be even worse (looking to Kronshtadt).

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2 minutes ago, Donar79 said:

Thats what i meant with balance in MM. BC are counted as BBs. This could be problematic since they are not the same. But counting them as Cruisers (in MM) would be even worse (looking to Kronshtadt).

Yeah I agree with you. The problem is that WG will not change the MM for counting ships as BB or BC. So for now we will need to stick to that rule :Smile_sceptic:

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You could use this picture for Mikawa:

1920px-IJN_battleship_design_of_Project-

 

All in all very nice work. Personally I prefer less Amagi style ships.

 

While I do not mind a BC tree, I think it is better for the game if BC are counted as BB, otherwise Cruiser will suffer even more.

IJN/UK BC should suffer from glass cannon syndrome (powerful offense with weak defense) and high speed.

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

You could use this picture for Mikawa:

1920px-IJN_battleship_design_of_Project-

 

All in all very nice work. Personally I prefer less Amagi style ships.

 

While I do not mind a BC tree, I think it is better for the game if BC are counted as BB, otherwise Cruiser will suffer even more.

IJN/UK BC should suffer from glass cannon syndrome (powerful offense with weak defense) and high speed.

Thks for the pincture!! Will update it as soon as i can. As for the MM, i bet it will remain as of now and count BCs as BBs, which is better.

My inital ideas where to get rid off one heal and add a def AA with limited panic effect but no damage increase. As for the squishyness, that would be a problem too, but you can always angle and such.

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12 hours ago, FrankvC_Jr said:

460mm L45

 

So you upgraded this Mikawa to use 460mm guns instead of 457mm, or is the 460 as caliber a typo?  (As Number 13 class was planned with 457'ers.)

 

If the 460mm is intended as caliber I can understand it, as those 3 extra mm bring the overpen capability for 32mm plates.

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10 hours ago, WolfGewehr said:

 

So you upgraded this Mikawa to use 460mm guns instead of 457mm, or is the 460 as caliber a typo?  (As Number 13 class was planned with 457'ers.)

 

If the 460mm is intended as caliber I can understand it, as those 3 extra mm bring the overpen capability for 32mm plates.

Well I checked the navweaps page and there it says 46cm and I think is better for her to have 460 cause with the 457s she doesn’t have much going for it if you compare it to a Conqueror (faster and that is it, because the AA i would suspect is the same level and the armor is much worse plus it doesn’t get RN heal). Also I used the L45s of the Yamato rather than the L50s of the original because the longer gun may be too much.

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4 hours ago, FrankvC_Jr said:

I think is better for her to have 460 cause with the 457s she doesn’t have much going for it if you compare it to a Conqueror (faster and that is it, because the AA i would suspect is the same level and the armor is much worse plus it doesn’t get RN heal).

 

Yeah I understand this balance decision.

 

4 hours ago, FrankvC_Jr said:

Also I used the L45s of the Yamato rather than the L50s of the original because the longer gun may be too much.

 

Longer barrel would usually give higher muzzle velocity indeed, and thus I understand your reasoning, but I'm not sure if the older L/50 gun would perform much better than Yama's newer guns. The older 46/L50 was designed to use 100kg lighter shells than Yama's newer 46/L45. Thus it would be interesting, albeit pretty hard to answer anymore, whether the older gun could have been upgraded with heavier shells and new/more propellant to try to squeeze better performance out of that longer barrel (when compared to Yama's L45, assuming the L50 is worse without upgrades).

 

4 hours ago, FrankvC_Jr said:

Well I checked the navweaps page and there it says 46cm

 

Hmm, interesting. English Wiki says 457/L45, citing Breyer, while Japanese Wiki says 460/L45 and Navweaps says 460/L50. Barrel lenght can be confirmed to be L50, via this picture on NW:

 

Spoiler

 

WNJAP_18-50_t5_barrel_pic.jpg

 

 

And if you squeeze your eyes it really looks like the caliber is 460.

 

 

Well, this was interesting little learning session, as I had always thought the Number 13 class was to be armed with 457's, but apparently it was to be 460 instead. Now I'm just interested to know (if even possible), which gun would have better performance as built, N13's 46/L50 or Yama's 46/L45. Atm I would say the L45 thanks to newer, more heavier shells.

 

But then, if you want to add little extra raw pen for that Mikawa, you could use the older L50's, modernised with newer, heavier shells. Thus it should have more raw pen than Yamato ingame, but the overmatch bonus would stay the same (as it's tied to caliber), and as such I don't think it would be "too much power". Overall Yamato has already lost its short to medium range "penetration champion" to Republique. Either way, 46/L45's are more than adequate for the job ^^

 


 

Anyways, it was nice to read this BB + BC tree proposal and I hope it bears fruit someday. Only major proposal with which I disagree is the lowering of Yama's citadel. It's balanced as it is now and it adds some challenge to play her. Additionally you can reliably punish bad Yamato players. In my opinion the BBs of other nations need some tweaking to their citadels instead (mainly Conq and Monty, can't comment on Republique yet).

 

On 9.4.2018 at 11:03 AM, FrankvC_Jr said:

Togheter with a painfully slow turret traverse, this forces you to stay bow on and camp like a champ

 

Yama has never been a brawler, and should not even be turned into one. I have to disagree with this statement that you'd need to (be forced to) bowtank all the day. Yama can roam given adequate distance to enemy (like 14-15km), you just need some experience to do it. I.e. maintain the correct distance and time your turns accordingly to the flow of battle. Thanks to her thicc, angled belt you can make a broadside turn, even in front of BBs as long as you turn outwards (thus the belt angle increases as the ship lists) and stay within certain minimum distance from the enemy. So Yama isn't a brawler indeed, but she can roam just fine. Thus bowtanking definitely isn't the only way to play her.

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Yeah I agree. The thing about Yamato is that currently is the soft spot of tier X and thus I would like to lower her citadel to Montana level; this way you are punished by showing side while solving the problem of a half hull above waterline being a citadel. If they lowered the US BB, I think they could do the same here and because it retains the traverse, it doesnt need to brawl as you say.

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@FrankvC_Jr Nice job mate!

 

I personally like more the earlier days ships/Dreadnoughts but WG seems to have decided that these don’t really have a spot in the game other than at T3. That is why I am currently on some kind of Wows break - no idea if the fascination lights up a second time. 

 

However, great work you put together and unlike Colonel Pete I do like Amagi style ships. The battlecruisier the better :-)

 

Cheers and +1

 

 

 

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N13 or mikawa both seem like tier 9 ships to me. It only seems like youd have to force soft buffs and gimmicks on them to fit tier 10 to be honest. Yamato has one more gun in an even better layout with even better shell performance yet it needs 2.1 sigma to compete with the other tier 10s when it comes to firepower. 

 

 

No matter how you look at it 4x2 18" wont work at tier 10 at all. This was well documented with the failure of 18" Conqueror and the fact that WG went as far as to buff Republiques reload to an insane 24 seconds...

 

Please dont give WG the wrong idea about n13.

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Why not just ride the tsurugi train and put a 15"/16" version of the hiraga design at tier 7 instead of yet another Amagi sister? 

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just hope they do not mess things up Kii shows perfectly well how a ship that has more belt armor than Amagi can be a glasscanon by things like an overmatchable citadel roof casing a BB to have less survivability than a BC.

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Excellent effort, we'll laid out and brings in some interesting designs. I'm a fan of having as many real ships in game as possible but I'm also fascinated by ship design and I like having concepts as long as they make sense. If this came to pass I wouldn't complain, but I would suggest some tweaks. My main gripe is you haven't found a way to squeeze the Ise class in but more on that later.

 

On the BC line the T7-9 progression looks very stale because these are just variations on the same ship. I would much rather have a 10-gun (2-3-3-2) Hiraga design at T7. For T9, I think you can scrap existing Izumo and make both slow and fast trees use different variants of the A140. There is at least one 31 knot version with 3-3-3 all forward and forward facing that could be the fast BB, and the slow BB for variety could be one with e.g. 12 guns (4-4-4 in current Izumo layout). Main disadvantage would be slightly stale progression of Hiraga designs at both T6 and T7, unless you use a Fujimoto.

 

One thing you could do here to solve that is move Kongo to T6 with appropriate quality of life improvements (AA, reload, sigma, turret traverse, rudder shift), Myogi to T5 with same tweaks, and have a new T4 battlecruiser with 10x 12" based on Ishizuchi but with a bit more of a 1930s look added on.

 

On the BB line, one of the IJN flavours has always been firepower and I think having the biggest calibre is a part of that. I would use your Iwami at T4 as we have a precedent in Orion for that kind of firepower there. T5 could then be Fuso but using a Pre-reconstruction hull (I guess we'll disagree here because you don't like Ashitaka but I think this has potential). That leaves you free to use a reconstructed Ise as the T6.

 

Alternatively, controversial opinion, start the split after Kongo with Fuso and Ise being the two T6s. Neither is "fast" but then the whole line dips in speed currently at T6 anyway and it solves the above issue of using two Hiraga designs back to back at the mid tiers.

 

EDIT: I just thought, we have precedents now for BBs with 14" guns as T7 silver ships. You could squeeze Ise there with late-war AA I think, and move Nagato to the fast BB line.

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16 hours ago, Affeks said:

Why not just ride the tsurugi train and put a 15"/16" version of the hiraga design at tier 7 instead of yet another Amagi sister? 

Because that 16 “ is a L50 one for the Kongo replacent design and I find it too much; others ideas where using Ishikari (B65) with a lot of buff to make an “IJN Gneis” or the BC design III of 1916 (a faster Nagato) but one has paper armor (The Ishikari) and the other is just a 34 kts speed Nagato without much else going for it. You can look for that design in Tzoli DV.

 

4 hours ago, VC381 said:

Excellent effort, we'll laid out and brings in some interesting designs. I'm a fan of having as many real ships in game as possible but I'm also fascinated by ship design and I like having concepts as long as they make sense. If this came to pass I wouldn't complain, but I would suggest some tweaks. My main gripe is you haven't found a way to squeeze the Ise class in but more on that later.

 

On the BC line the T7-9 progression looks very stale because these are just variations on the same ship. I would much rather have a 10-gun (2-3-3-2) Hiraga design at T7. For T9, I think you can scrap existing Izumo and make both slow and fast trees use different variants of the A140. There is at least one 31 knot version with 3-3-3 all forward and forward facing that could be the fast BB, and the slow BB for variety could be one with e.g. 12 guns (4-4-4 in current Izumo layout). Main disadvantage would be slightly stale progression of Hiraga designs at both T6 and T7, unless you use a Fujimoto.

 

One thing you could do here to solve that is move Kongo to T6 with appropriate quality of life improvements (AA, reload, sigma, turret traverse, rudder shift), Myogi to T5 with same tweaks, and have a new T4 battlecruiser with 10x 12" based on Ishizuchi but with a bit more of a 1930s look added on.

 

On the BB line, one of the IJN flavours has always been firepower and I think having the biggest calibre is a part of that. I would use your Iwami at T4 as we have a precedent in Orion for that kind of firepower there. T5 could then be Fuso but using a Pre-reconstruction hull (I guess we'll disagree here because you don't like Ashitaka but I think this has potential). That leaves you free to use a reconstructed Ise as the T6.

 

Alternatively, controversial opinion, start the split after Kongo with Fuso and Ise being the two T6s. Neither is "fast" but then the whole line dips in speed currently at T6 anyway and it solves the above issue of using two Hiraga designs back to back at the mid tiers.

 

EDIT: I just thought, we have precedents now for BBs with 14" guns as T7 silver ships. You could squeeze Ise there with late-war AA I think, and move Nagato to the fast BB line.

Thks for the suggestion!! I thought the following:

 

Scrapping the Izumo and using more A140s is a nice idea but i find that i would still like my inital plan. Mainly because you have 2 design traditions, 1 in each branch. You have the fast BB school of 1910/20 and the super BB program of the late 30s. That is why i liked the Amagi-Owari-Mikawa (1920s designs all of them) rather than Amagi-Something-Mikawa (a 1920s ship then a 30s and finally a 1920s design again). 

About using Kongo with 1944 and QoL buffs, i really wanted that but a Spanish friend told me that it was a bit of strech, considering the only real buff would be AA. The sigma and such could help but it is undergunned and underarmored for that. The tier 6 has 12 guns for 356/14inch and 8 for 380s or higher. The Kongo  needs to show the side to bring more than 4 guns and I find that it lacks the gunpower to compete with even a Dunkerque (the french can remain angled and the jap even with HE would struggle cause low number of shells). Same as Myogi, to few guns and even at that tier it doesn’t have the biggest guns that it has at tier 4. But I would have a substitute for it just in case.

Regarding the slow BB tier 5, I initially thought of Yamashiro to a early 30s refit but even with nerfs it would be too much.  

 

And and about the Ashitaka....is more the fact that they did the model wrong. It lacks torps and 2 120s DP. If WG gives that, I would stop complaining much XD. And the Ise....well that is difficult to explain. I’ve always hoped they would add the Mutsu as 1943 as a premium at tier 7 and then Ise as 1942 at tier 6. Then Hyuga could go to Hybrids. But when they launched 1920s Mutsu I left it for good. Which is sad cause I really like the Ise :( 

 

 

 

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Yeah, it seems to be the IJN premium BB flavour to have earlier versions at lower tiers. I'm still hoping for maybe a Yamashiro T5 premium. Although Ise is not out of the question at T6 just because of Mutsu, there are quite a few examples of two premiums of same ship type at same tier.

 

I don't mind having a progression of similar design evolution. Each tier has a meta and it would be nice not to have to choose ship or tier. In that sense spreading out is nice, some cruiser lines have this and it's not bad. But I think marketing this as a serious tree idea, most players will not see the design traditions or differences, only "Oh another Amagi just 1 tier higher again". Like people whine about Ibuki.

 

I prefer not to think too narrowly about hard stats and how they work or don't work at certain tiers. If you give Kongo 10km concealment and cruiser dispersion she can be a T10 CA. Yes it's a stupid example but WG are already showing they are willing to try something like that. I mean, Kongo is already one of the strongest BBs at T5 and has no problem being bottom tier (actually I prefer playing her in T7 games because the bigger maps let you use the speed). In any case what you have works and I would grind it ;P

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If they ever tell make a proper BC class with less HP and a gimmick, I would love to see the 44 version of Kongo as a tier 6. Give her def aa with panic mode/ damage increase but not both (CV players would tell what is worse). Then a buff to turning coupled with better gun handling and it would be awesome. The problem will be the MM tho, which is kind of horrific for mid tier premiums (5-6).

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