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Systergummi

Z52 Long range gun build?

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Hi I play DDs a lot. My first love was the German DD line. I won't say my stats are the greatest in them. But I have gotten a little bit better since then. Still play the z46 sometimes but very rarely the z52. I used it in CW where it works fine, but in randoms its no fun. So Ive got a t10 with a 19 captain that I dont use. My plan now is to go full gunbuild on it with emphasis on range. Its not that slow. 42 knots? With spood beast. And 16.8km range with aft and range module. It will still have 6.1 detection and 10.5 km torps. But slower reload.

So what do you think... Is it going to work. Im thinking Udaloi with better consealment, better torps and longer range. Worse HE but better AP. It will still have the mega hydro for pushing caps and not being torped in smoke.

The question is if it can hit on that range.

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Honestly those torps are a much stronger investment than the guns. The Z-52 is a cap contester and torpboat at heart, investing in the guns means you will be able to pew pew somewhat more effectively but will still be outgunned by a more dedicated gunboat. And do you really need 16.8 km range? 

 

Basically turning it into an inferiour Kebab and not going for its role as the best cap contestor in the game seems like you are just better off getting the Kebab.

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50 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

Honestly those torps are a much stronger investment than the guns. The Z-52 is a cap contester and torpboat at heart, investing in the guns means you will be able to pew pew somewhat more effectively but will still be outgunned by a more dedicated gunboat. And do you really need 16.8 km range? 

 

Basically turning it into an inferiour Kebab and not going for its role as the best cap contestor in the game seems like you are just better off getting the Kebab.

Already have the Kebab. Grinding the Udaloi as we speak and enjoing it a lot. Mabe the 16.8 will be to much 14. something might be enough. What I hate about the z52 with the torpbuild is that I get baited into capping and cant get out because the ship is so clumpsy. With the Udaloi I actually do better because the 7.2 detection forces me to play a little more safe. I would hate to fight a gunbuilt z52 in the Kebab so I dont think it will be inferiour. It can disengage at will, 9.7 detection vs 6.1. Vastly superior torps and better ruddershift even If you have stearing gears mod 1+2 on the Kebab.

 

By the way say hi to Smygande faran for me.

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15 minutes ago, Systergummi said:

Already have the Kebab. Grinding the Udaloi as we speak and enjoing it a lot. Mabe the 16.8 will be to much 14. something might be enough. What I hate about the z52 with the torpbuild is that I get baited into capping and cant get out because the ship is so clumpsy. With the Udaloi I actually do better because the 7.2 detection forces me to play a little more safe. I would hate to fight a gunbuilt z52 in the Kebab so I dont think it will be inferiour. It can disengage at will, 9.7 detection vs 6.1. Vastly superior torps and better ruddershift even If you have stearing gears mod 1+2 on the Kebab.

 

By the way say hi to Smygande faran for me.

If you want multipurpose destroyer with bit more focus on guns, Grozovoi might be up your alley. And certainly makes more sense building Grozo for guns than for torps

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2 hours ago, Systergummi said:

Hi I play DDs a lot. My first love was the German DD line. I won't say my stats are the greatest in them. But I have gotten a little bit better since then. Still play the z46 sometimes but very rarely the z52. I used it in CW where it works fine, but in randoms its no fun. So Ive got a t10 with a 19 captain that I dont use. My plan now is to go full gunbuild on it with emphasis on range. Its not that slow. 42 knots? With spood beast. And 16.8km range with aft and range module. It will still have 6.1 detection and 10.5 km torps. But slower reload.

So what do you think... Is it going to work. Im thinking Udaloi with better consealment, better torps and longer range. Worse HE but better AP. It will still have the mega hydro for pushing caps and not being torped in smoke.

The question is if it can hit on that range.

going range-gunboat build makes your concealment worth... not all that much.

And no, you do NOT have better AP than an Udaloi. You have higher theoretical alpha, yes, but your pen is complete and utter poop - you can practically forget about even having AP at anything above 10km range.

 

And at any rate, a Z52 that stays away from caps to spam things at long range is a complete waste of a ship. You give up on pretty much everything that makes your ship good (concealment, hydro, fantastic torps, mean short range AP DPM) to spam some shells and do a little bit of completely and utterly inconsequential damage to BBs. And you're not even any good at that - you're still a fat target, your HE is bad, and at that kind of max range your arcs are not much better than USN orbital mortars...

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26 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

going range-gunboat build makes your concealment worth... not all that much.

And no, you do NOT have better AP than an Udaloi. You have higher theoretical alpha, yes, but your pen is complete and utter poop - you can practically forget about even having AP at anything above 10km range.

 

And at any rate, a Z52 that stays away from caps to spam things at long range is a complete waste of a ship. You give up on pretty much everything that makes your ship good (concealment, hydro, fantastic torps, mean short range AP DPM) to spam some shells and do a little bit of completely and utterly inconsequential damage to BBs. And you're not even any good at that - you're still a fat target, your HE is bad, and at that kind of max range your arcs are not much better than USN orbital mortars...

This. Also keep in mind that longer range means longer detection range after firing. You will be spotted a lot more and thus die more often. I don't even research the range upgrade on us and pan asian dds for that reason. 

 

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Well, the question in my mind is, how will you hit anything beyond 10-12 km? And as has been said, forget about AP.

1 hour ago, Systergummi said:

Already have the Kebab. Grinding the Udaloi as we speak and enjoing it a lot. Mabe the 16.8 will be to much 14. something might be enough. What I hate about the z52 with the torpbuild is that I get baited into capping and cant get out because the ship is so clumpsy. With the Udaloi I actually do better because the 7.2 detection forces me to play a little more safe. I would hate to fight a gunbuilt z52 in the Kebab so I dont think it will be inferiour. It can disengage at will, 9.7 detection vs 6.1. Vastly superior torps and better ruddershift even If you have stearing gears mod 1+2 on the Kebab.

 

By the way say hi to Smygande faran for me.

 

Udaloi is a beast, at least T9,5. Can build as torp boat and gunboat (although speed on the slow side). It also is incredibly maneuverable. One of my most-played DDs overall and most fun ships too.

Grozevoi is even less maneuverable than Z52 but otherwise it is a better gun-platform than Z52. Think of RN cruisers going backwards and thats the maneuverabiliy WITH propulsion mod 2.

And while Z52 might do a lot of dmg to Kebab with the initial volley, Kebab dpm + angling would eat it alive afterward (german ap dmg drop rapidly with angling). And Kebab have heal while Z52 dont. 

 

But by all means try it. I think every rational argument goes against a gunboat Z52, but like Shima gunboat setup that does not mean it can't work. It just remains a troll-build for the wicked :Smile_playing:

 

Also if the reason you do not like the Z52 is because of baiting yourself into caps, weelll - stop it!:Smile-_tongue:

- prefer open caps over caps between islands (you can see radar CAs coming miles away)

- play Z52 without hydro or play like you would in another capping boat (gearing, YueYang, Shima) and dont go into caps before you have more information.

- do you use propulsion mod 2 on Z52? Coming from Khaba/Grozevoi I'm actually surprised how good maneuverability the Z52 has!

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34 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

This. Also keep in mind that longer range means longer detection range after firing. You will be spotted a lot more and thus die more often. I don't even research the range upgrade on us and pan asian dds for that reason. 

 

 

I assumed it was just me with that approach on DD's, managing that 20s gun bloom with long range guns that don't actually do that much at long range doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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44 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Also if the reason you do not like the Z52 is because of baiting yourself into caps, weelll - stop it!:Smile-_tongue:

- prefer open caps over caps between islands (you can see radar CAs coming miles away)

- play Z52 without hydro or play like you would in another capping boat (gearing, YueYang, Shima) and dont go into caps before you have more information.

- do you use propulsion mod 2 on Z52? Coming from Khaba/Grozevoi I'm actually surprised how good maneuverability the Z52 has!

 

I prefer small rocky caps to large open ones in the Z-52. In large open caps, the Z-52 is easily outspotted and can be focus fired. In a small rocky cap, you can hide and give a 2 min hydro no go zone area for enemy DD's. Let the team do the damage!

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4 hours ago, Armorin said:

 

I prefer small rocky caps to large open ones in the Z-52. In large open caps, the Z-52 is easily outspotted and can be focus fired. In a small rocky cap, you can hide and give a 2 min hydro no go zone area for enemy DD's. Let the team do the damage!

Point and I absolutely agree about letting the team dot he dmg.

I play gearing and seeing stuff coming is essential.  I guess rocky caps can be good in the Z52, if you can stop getting stuck there :)

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8 hours ago, Tyrendian89 said:

going range-gunboat build makes your concealment worth... not all that much.

And no, you do NOT have better AP than an Udaloi. You have higher theoretical alpha, yes, but your pen is complete and utter poop - you can practically forget about even having AP at anything above 10km range.

 

And at any rate, a Z52 that stays away from caps to spam things at long range is a complete waste of a ship. You give up on pretty much everything that makes your ship good (concealment, hydro, fantastic torps, mean short range AP DPM) to spam some shells and do a little bit of completely and utterly inconsequential damage to BBs. And you're not even any good at that - you're still a fat target, your HE is bad, and at that kind of max range your arcs are not much better than USN orbital mortars...

Still gonna try it out. Tried one game with 16.8 but never got to try the guns over 12km. Did ok as a gunboat though. One cap 120k damage and 2 kills. One torp hit the rest guns. Hydrokilled a loyang :Smile_teethhappy:.

So next Im gonna go aft and reload module. 14.5 range 3.5sec reload, and that is before ar kicks in. Fire chance is 10% with flags.

Did 2 games but I sucked. Overextended as usual. Still this bild feels more fun...

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8 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Well, the question in my mind is, how will you hit anything beyond 10-12 km? And as has been said, forget about AP.

 

Udaloi is a beast, at least T9,5. Can build as torp boat and gunboat (although speed on the slow side). It also is incredibly maneuverable. One of my most-played DDs overall and most fun ships too.

Grozevoi is even less maneuverable than Z52 but otherwise it is a better gun-platform than Z52. Think of RN cruisers going backwards and thats the maneuverabiliy WITH propulsion mod 2.

And while Z52 might do a lot of dmg to Kebab with the initial volley, Kebab dpm + angling would eat it alive afterward (german ap dmg drop rapidly with angling). And Kebab have heal while Z52 dont. 

 

But by all means try it. I think every rational argument goes against a gunboat Z52, but like Shima gunboat setup that does not mean it can't work. It just remains a troll-build for the wicked :Smile_playing:

 

Also if the reason you do not like the Z52 is because of baiting yourself into caps, weelll - stop it!:Smile-_tongue:

- prefer open caps over caps between islands (you can see radar CAs coming miles away)

- play Z52 without hydro or play like you would in another capping boat (gearing, YueYang, Shima) and dont go into caps before you have more information.

- do you use propulsion mod 2 on Z52? Coming from Khaba/Grozevoi I'm actually surprised how good maneuverability the Z52 has!

You seem to grasp the consept that every build doeset have to be the best. It just has to be fun :Smile_playing:.

Also gunboating doesent meen that one has to ignore caps. I cap all the time in my Udaloi and Kebab. :cap_rambo::Smile_izmena:.

Just scare them away.

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2 hours ago, Systergummi said:

Still gonna try it out. Tried one game with 16.8 but never got to try the guns over 12km. Did ok as a gunboat though. One cap 120k damage and 2 kills. One torp hit the rest guns. Hydrokilled a loyang :Smile_teethhappy:.

So next Im gonna go aft and reload module. 14.5 range 3.5sec reload, and that is before ar kicks in. Fire chance is 10% with flags.

Did 2 games but I sucked. Overextended as usual. Still this bild feels more fun...

I still havn't played reload + BFT Gearing much, but starting out with a sub 3s reload and going lower as AR kicks in is hilarious. You actually drop below 2s reload as hp goes below 50%!

The problem is  (as always) hitting stuff with those mortars.

 

And yeah I love fun builds, but tend to stay with the "best" (since secondary builds are useless these days)

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50 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

I still havn't played reload + BFT Gearing much, but starting out with a sub 3s reload and going lower as AR kicks in is hilarious. You actually drop below 2s reload as hp goes below 50%!

The problem is  (as always) hitting stuff with those mortars.

 

And yeah I love fun builds, but tend to stay with the "best" (since secondary builds are useless these days)

Im tempted to go there with the Yueyang. Same base reload as gearing and same mortars. Its just that the torps are so good, gearing as well. Had a New record game today in the YY. 266652 damage, mostly torps. Still guns are more consistent. Hence the gunbuild on z.

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Since this is a Z52 thread, i'm grinding for it (z46 atm) my plan was to go for both gun/torp build hybrid since, the DD to me looks good for both roles, you can go cap contester at the start and as a torp boat later in game, it's good at both roles but specialises in neither, making it a good all round flexible DD, idk maybe its just me but tbh i prefer a solid allrounder over a specialised one in 10 game lolboat. 

(i went IJN DD line but that didnt go the way i expected) 

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23 hours ago, Systergummi said:

Hi I play DDs a lot. My first love was the German DD line. I won't say my stats are the greatest in them. But I have gotten a little bit better since then. Still play the z46 sometimes but very rarely the z52. I used it in CW where it works fine, but in randoms its no fun. So Ive got a t10 with a 19 captain that I dont use. My plan now is to go full gunbuild on it with emphasis on range. Its not that slow. 42 knots? With spood beast. And 16.8km range with aft and range module. It will still have 6.1 detection and 10.5 km torps. But slower reload.

So what do you think... Is it going to work. Im thinking Udaloi with better consealment, better torps and longer range. Worse HE but better AP. It will still have the mega hydro for pushing caps and not being torped in smoke.

The question is if it can hit on that range.

Best approach is to play to the ship's strenghts, not weaknesses.

Strength of Z lies in its fast reloading torps and excellent Hydro.

There is dedicated line of long range gunboats in the soviet subtree, try rhem out first.

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1 hour ago, Skyllon said:

Best approach is to play to the ship's strenghts, not weaknesses.

Strength of Z lies in its fast reloading torps and excellent Hydro.

There is dedicated line of long range gunboats in the soviet subtree, try rhem out first.

I already have them. Not the Grozovoi though. But Im getting there fast. My problem is that I have a t10 ship with a 19p captain and premium camo that I dont play because I dont enjoy it. I played one game in it today. We won but I did 10k damage and sat behind a rock in b at tears map with a DM, Loyang and Missouri in the same cap. Sure they were tied down also but Its so boooring. The game after I played Yueyang 247k damage and 3 caps... I cant make z52 work as well. But sure I gunned down a z52 at 10k health with my Udaloy at 2.5k health in the first match of the day. So In a open water duel you are right. The Ruskies are superior. Still I think this Is the way to go for me. I have to relearn to play it though.

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10 hours ago, Major_Damage225 said:

Since this is a Z52 thread, i'm grinding for it (z46 atm) my plan was to go for both gun/torp build hybrid since, the DD to me looks good for both roles, you can go cap contester at the start and as a torp boat later in game, it's good at both roles but specialises in neither, making it a good all round flexible DD, idk maybe its just me but tbh i prefer a solid allrounder over a specialised one in 10 game lolboat. 

(i went IJN DD line but that didnt go the way i expected) 

I still have the z46 and like it a lot. But it plays differently than the z52. With the 46 I went torpsbuild. Its made for kiting and torpspamming. The hydro has a lot shorter range then its bigger sister so I mainly used it for defence. With the z52 I end up further in the caps because I want to detect the other DDs. This usually results in being stuck without a way back. What Im thinking is gunboating at range early, 2nd lind of DDs, and pushing midgame. I just have to get It into my thick skull and not push hard at the start like usually do.

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1 hour ago, Systergummi said:

I still have the z46 and like it a lot. But it plays differently than the z52. With the 46 I went torpsbuild. Its made for kiting and torpspamming. The hydro has a lot shorter range then its bigger sister so I mainly used it for defence. With the z52 I end up further in the caps because I want to detect the other DDs. This usually results in being stuck without a way back.

Don't you think THIS might be the problem?

Great Hydro gives you a big advantage but it doesn't make you a superman. Nor is it the only thing your ship has going for her. Seeing how you're pretty far in a bunch of DD lines, you should certainly know that playing a DD is all about balancing the effectiveness and risk - the fact that you seem to have problems with that in Z-52 doesn't mean you should throw away her strong points (torps and Hydro) in favor of focusing on things that aren't really her specialty at all.

 

Let me give you a (slightly exaggerated) analogy: I'm not a good Bismarck player. With Bismarck I end up too close to the enemy because I'm too impatient and I want to see my secondaries open up. This usually results in being stuck without a way back. Do you think I should go for the max accuracy sniper build instead? :Smile-_tongue:

Of course, a Bismarck can damage enemies at longer ranges so she CAN play like that - but there are just plenty BBs much better in that role...

Similarly with Z-52. Her arcs are decent enough that she can engage at longer ranges - but there are just better ships for that and she is better for other things. Purposefully playing contrary to her "natural" role is wasting her potential.

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1 hour ago, eliastion said:

Don't you think THIS might be the problem?

Great Hydro gives you a big advantage but it doesn't make you a superman. Nor is it the only thing your ship has going for her. Seeing how you're pretty far in a bunch of DD lines, you should certainly know that playing a DD is all about balancing the effectiveness and risk - the fact that you seem to have problems with that in Z-52 doesn't mean you should throw away her strong points (torps and Hydro) in favor of focusing on things that aren't really her specialty at all.

 

Let me give you a (slightly exaggerated) analogy: I'm not a good Bismarck player. With Bismarck I end up too close to the enemy because I'm too impatient and I want to see my secondaries open up. This usually results in being stuck without a way back. Do you think I should go for the max accuracy sniper build instead? :Smile-_tongue:

Of course, a Bismarck can damage enemies at longer ranges so she CAN play like that - but there are just plenty BBs much better in that role...

Similarly with Z-52. Her arcs are decent enough that she can engage at longer ranges - but there are just better ships for that and she is better for other things. Purposefully playing contrary to her "natural" role is wasting her potential.

I see it as one thing doesent have to exclude the other. She will be a better capcontester with the faster gunreload Im using now. Torpreload goes down to 90sec instead of 68. But I also gain aa-range. AA is at 78 without bft. Scoutplanes just fall out of the sky. But sure Ive not yet found a way to use the extra gunrange. To be extra clear. Im not avoiding caps. I just see this as a way to relearn a ship that Im not enjoying at the moment. And I think she will be more efficient for me this way. I saw a flamu video a while back where he "carries" in the z52. In my memory he spent the first half of that game gunboating as a second line dd. I will have to watch it again though.

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23 minutes ago, Systergummi said:

I see it as one thing doesent have to exclude the other. She will be a better capcontester with the faster gunreload Im using now.

You specifically mentioned building her for long-range gunboating, so I assumed you planned on, you know, long-range gunboating with her. The BFT you mention is hardly a strange skill on a hybrid.

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3 minutes ago, eliastion said:

You specifically mentioned building her for long-range gunboating, so I assumed you planned on, you know, long-range gunboating with her. The BFT you mention is hardly a strange skill on a hybrid.

I tried the 16.8 range but settled for 14.5 with reload booster instead of range module. So 3.5 sec reload instead of 4sec. I run demo expert instead of bft but if ever CVs were played more bft might be better. I might still try the 16.8 build again. It's kinda funny being able to cover the whole map from b cap in a DD. :fish_nerv:

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So Ive done 10+ games with 14.5 range and I find that it works. The playstyle so far is more taking a cap sittnng in it and bullying everyone. Taking another, rince repeat... The extra 2.5 km range on the guns does work well. Ive had my first 200k+ damage game in the z52. And the amount of fires it starts is comparable to my Kebab so far. I had a look at my stats and the z52 was really underperforming damage wise. Given another 100 games I think I could put it around 100k on average.

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