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Radar is counter to smoke. Implementing a counter to counter a counter is never a good idea.

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To echo the git gud/play around it;

 

-Try to find out the positions of the radar ships before committing to anything. Except chappy, minotaur and pa dd, the other radar ships have worse concealment than their radar range.

 

-don't do stuff that gives away your position before you know where they are. Capping/smoking announces your position

 

-dont sit in smoke if you arent sure they're dead/on the other side of the map, or have someone spotting for you

 

-hard cover = your friend. It doesnt matter if they radar you if noone can actually shoot/torp you.

 

-if you can't have hard cover and need to sit in open water then it needs to have open line of sight. This means they can't sneak up on you and catch you without you seeing them early and in time

 

-position yourself on caps facing back toward your own spawn/team so you can accelerate away if a radar cruiser shows up and you need to leave

 

-Learn what ranges they have, and what ships can have it

 

-If caught on the edge of their radar range then simply leave. 

 

-Most radar ships are reasonably squishy and like to hide behind islands. They generally dont tend to chase you. If they do try to kite them into your team. Teams love shooting a wild des moines.

 

-if you know they have radared you know you have a safe duration after it has run out

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10 minutes ago, TigerMoth said:

Indeed. Once you know roughly where the radar cruisers are, you can usually play around them. Missouri's tend to be driven by people who only have the 'w' and 's' keys working, so tend not to be too much of a threat. Keeping an island between yourself and the enemy team or playing so that you are always ready to get an island between you and a threat keeps you alive longer. 

Sounds like island camping to me.....any hoo....

 

Besides if your behind an island and your radar'd then detected by say I don't know ...half the enemy team, its hard to know where to go because you cant see who's detected you where they are etc....so what direction you should emerge from the said island/smoke? I have always come off worse against radar. But I am happy that others are turning it around it gives me hope.... sounds like I need to look at my tactics....

 

 

hz81uZm.jpg

 

yup.... seems fair:Smile_sceptic:

 

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9 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

Radar is counter to smoke. Implementing a counter to counter a counter is never a good idea.

True...

 

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24 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Sounds like island camping to me.....any hoo....

 

Besides if your behind an island and your radar'd then detected by say I don't know ...half the enemy team, its hard to know where to go because you cant see who's detected you where they are etc....so what direction you should emerge from the said island/smoke? I have always come off worse against radar. But I am happy that others are turning it around it gives me hope.... sounds like I need to look at my tactics....

 

 

hz81uZm.jpg

 

yup.... seems fair:Smile_sceptic:

 

If you dont mind me commenting on your smoke placement;

 

-Baltimore and missouri have 9.5km radar. Where you are positioned gives multiple locations they could reach, undetected, and radar you from safely. Essentially they can sneak up on you.

-You have no hard cover to hide behind/fall back to. You're in open water.

-You are facing towards the enemy. To leave radar you would need to go towards the enemy, turn around (deadly), and then try to leave. Instead try facing away from the enemy, this way you just need to accelerate to leave.

-You have been reversing (speed is -6.6). RNCL have great acceleration but only from 0. They're very sluggish going from -speeds to 0 which leaves you a sitting duck

-Where you're positioned puts you in an easy place to be torped from anyone in the B cap. You dont have a team mate spotting, nor hydro on. The enemy DD arent spotted so you dont know where they are positioned.

 

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10 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

If you dont mind me commenting on your smoke placement;

 

-Baltimore and missouri have 9.5km radar. Where you are positioned gives multiple locations they could reach, undetected, and radar you from safely. Essentially they can sneak up on you.

-You have no hard cover to hide behind/fall back to. You're in open water.

-You are facing towards the enemy. To leave radar you would need to go towards the enemy, turn around (deadly), and then try to leave. Instead try facing away from the enemy, this way you just need to accelerate to leave.

-You have been reversing (speed is -6.6). RNCL have great acceleration but only from 0. They're very sluggish going from -speeds to 0 which leaves you a sitting duck

-Where you're positioned puts you in an easy place to be torped from anyone in the B cap. You dont have a team mate spotting, nor hydro on. The enemy DD arent spotted so you dont know where they are positioned.

 

You are correct on all counts its not a great example...however i was covering an ali dd (you can just see his carcass in b if you look closely on mini map) as earlier we tried to contest the cap continually asked for support but Everybody just hung back as you can see.....

I feeling Rnl cursers get a bit of a raw deal.....they are great DD hunters and are good at contesting the cap or supporting taking it but you need to be closer in than most cl's because they don't have the range in guns and they don't have HE....so they are always near to the front line, They also Need support if they are to be successful at their role. If they hang back there are pretty useless. Sure they have smoke to compensate for close quarters combat but if they are radared and your not ALWAYS hiding behind an island your pretty Fooked.

So WG made an extra squishy CL line designed for close quarters combat....kind of counter productive really.....

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4 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

You are correct on all counts its not a great example...however i was covering an ali dd (you can just see his carcass in b if you look closely on mini map) as earlier we tried to contest the cap continually asked for support but Everybody just hung back as you can see.....

I feeling Rnl cursers get a bit of a raw deal.....they are great DD hunters and are good at contesting the cap or supporting taking it but you need to be closer in than most cl's because they don't have the range in guns and they don't have HE....so they are always near to the front line, They also Need support if they are to be successful at their role. If they hang back there are pretty useless. Sure they have smoke to compensate for close quarters combat but if they are radared and your not ALWAYS hiding behind an island your pretty Fooked.

So WG made an extra squishy CL line designed for close quarters combat....kind of counter productive really.....

Yeah your team are pretty passive here which isnt great. A good place for RNCL is tucked up to an island, to use and abuse your gun arcs. The edinburgh is pretty much the low point in the line at higher tiers if its any consolation

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32 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Yeah your team are pretty passive here which isnt great. A good place for RNCL is tucked up to an island, to use and abuse your gun arcs. The edinburgh is pretty much the low point in the line at higher tiers if its any consolation

Im being continually tired up at the moment in 90% of games.... its a joke ...but hey ...just gotta play smarter. :Smile_honoring:

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1 minute ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Im being continually tired up at the moment in 90% of games.... its a joke ...but hey ...just gotta play smarter. :Smile_honoring:

Neptune brings the dakka and the zombie heal. Minotaur brings so much dakka, and (for me at least) a level of fun that probably shouldnt be legal

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4 hours ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Sounds like island camping to me.....any hoo....

Anything squishy trying to do something under an enemy radar cruisers nose and not hiding behind island is going back to port sharply.

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12 hours ago, LapsedxPacifist said:

This is a suggestion to provide a partial counter to Radar. Chaff or...

 

Thoughts?

With WG choice of spotting mechanics, some ships would not be viable, but instead of 'correcting' the spotting issues, concealment and smoke became the answer.  The addition of smoke in it present fixed some issues, but created other problems. Radar was added; and while it 'fixed' some issues it created others. I don't believe chaff or what ever would change this pattern.

 

 

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16 hours ago, TigerMoth said:

Anything squishy trying to do something under an enemy radar cruisers nose and not hiding behind island is going back to port sharply.

This is Unfortunately true....Wich was my original point as it encourages even more camping and lending nothing to your team....wich is just what we need at the moment yeah?

 Swapped smoke for radar yesterday on the Eddy, contested a cap radar'd enemy dd, he was focused by 4-6 players aproching said cap and was back in port in under 10 sec. Did it feel good? No, not really.....he was only trying to do his correct roll in the game and got punished for it. Why would you want to play a game when you get constantly deleted for doing the right thing?

 

Besides there is no skil in Radar. press the magic button aim and fire. Anybody can do that.

 

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22 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

Let me clarify what I meant:

If a player consistently gets radared in his smoke, then he has no clue how to use his smoke.

 

 

U2AtRlH.gif

 

Im sorry....Im really trying to understand but ...that statement does NOT make any sense....

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52 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Besides there is no skil in Radar. press the magic button aim and fire. Anybody can do that.

If you remove skill from THAT, you will be back in port before the guy you used radar against.

 

54 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

he was only trying to do his correct roll in the game and got punished for it

Tried indeed, but at wrong time and place obviously.

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47 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

 

U2AtRlH.gif

 

Im sorry....Im really trying to understand but ...that statement does NOT make any sense....

Because apart from a very few select ships, radar ships can't get into range without being seen.

 

Which means if you put your smoke in a place where they can sneak up on you unseen, or if you cut off your own LoS because you dont have any way of spotting near you then you are using your smoke wrongly.

Similarly if you havent positioned yourself in a way to quickly and safely leave smoke in the event of torps/charging radar cruiser then you are also using it wrong.

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1 hour ago, SeaWolf7 said:

 

 

Besides there is no skil in Radar. press the magic button aim and fire. Anybody can do that.

 

Which is really no different from smoke though, is it?  Get spotted, press your own magic button and voila, hidden again.  In fact, i think smoke is WAY worse, given the durations, sizes and reloads that some ships get.  Personally, I think removing stealth firing was the best thing WG ever did and the changes to smoke a step in the right direction - but I'd be happy to see smoke nerfed further - camping in smoke and spamming shells from 12km away is still an incredibly w*nky tactic.  But that's my personal opinion.

 

Anyway, I think radar is as valid as smoke - it's a tool that some ships possess and you need to be aware of which ships on the enemy team have it and react accordingly.  My only radar ship is the Atlanta and I always find it a little sad when an enemy DD gets within about 7km of me, I pop radar and then they try to smoke up.  Smoke won't save you now...

 

That said, I do agree that at the highest tiers, some enemy ships have a radar range, duration and reload which allows them to camp islands and radar multiple cap zones whilst safely camped behind an island - that's also w*nky.

Edited by krazypenguin
Typos!

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1 hour ago, Xevious_Red said:

Because apart from a very few select ships, radar ships can't get into range without being seen.

 

Which means if you put your smoke in a place where they can sneak up on you unseen, or if you cut off your own LoS because you dont have any way of spotting near you then you are using your smoke wrongly.

Similarly if you havent positioned yourself in a way to quickly and safely leave smoke in the event of torps/charging radar cruiser then you are also using it wrong.

Thank you my friend I now understand what he was trying to say....

 

1 hour ago, krazypenguin said:

Which is really no different from smoke though, is it?  Get spotted, press your own magic button and voila, hidden again. 

....and then you counter that with your magic button and Im Screwed.:Smile_teethhappy:.....

 

 

 

 

like you aptly point out here:

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, krazypenguin said:

  My only radar ship is the Atlanta and I always find it a little sad when an enemy DD gets within about 7km of me, I pop radar and then they try to smoke up.  Smoke won't save you now...

 

exactly.....you have the final say. Radar.

 

The situation ends in favour of the person who has radar. It is not even or balanced. besides the bloody thing goes through islands anyway......

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54 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

exactly.....you have the final say. Ra dar.

 

The situation ends in favour of the person who has radar. It is not even or balanced. besides the bloody thing goes through islands anyway......

The scenario you described is a combination of two things:

 

1. A good play by you and your team by sneaking up and focusing fire. 

2. A bad play by the dd by not taking this situation into account beforehand. 

 

Dds are dependent on consistently good prediction of you really want to be good. The guy did the equivalent of sailing a mino broadside to a bb that is 8km away. He was supposed to die. 

 

Yes, radar is the most powerful consumable in the game, I will give you that, but it is also far from an I-win-button if the dd has any skills.

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