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narbar

Graf Zep Counter Advice

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Hi, I was looking for some advice on how to counter the Graf Zep as a BB.  I'm hoping its just me been naïve but that thing looks seriously OP, to the extent its actually ruining the game.  Ive tried grouping up with other ships but it just seems to pick its target and destroys it in one fly over.  Waits a few minutes and comes back to destroy the next ship that was in the formation.  

 

Any advice will be appreciated as I am currently getting annoyed at this gameplay style and I'm hoping theres something I can do about it as a BB apart from hope our the Graf Zep dosent choose me.

 

Thanks Dean

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[YEEET]
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Do seem rather good - came across one briefly when out in my Atlanta - unlike a Saipan a couple of months ago, who targeted me and lost all his planes in very rapid time - and raged about it - the GS targeted me and despite having a fully AA specced Atlanta, he completely demolished me in no time at all - can't have got more than 5 planes before dying ignominiously. Well played him but quite an eye opener!

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[YARRR]
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Stick close to your friendly neighborhood AA cruiser. Please note that due to the rarity of CVs atm cruisers will rarely bother with taking AA skills/upgrades and/or DFAA. Also BB overpopulation has driven the few AA cruisers that are still around into a fairly passive playstyle.

Alternatively your own CV can shut down a GZ easily unless he's also playing one or a Lexington. Or he's just incompetent.

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@triumphgt6: It's not just Atlantas. Recently i observed a Des Moines getting absolutely wrecked in one single bomb run...and it didn't shoot down a single plane out of 3 DB waves.

 

@El2aZeR: So basically it all comes down to "you can't do anything but play passive, click-focus those bombers and pray for the bless of RNGsus". Well done, WG. :Smile_sad:

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[BLOBS]
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Standard Advices for when there are CVs in the game. Stick together dont yolo alone and dont backpadle or play static like this: 

Overall make his atack runs as hard as posible on your own.

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[1701]
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thanks for the replies there appreciated :D at least they encourage team play 

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4 hours ago, narbar said:

Graf Zep Counter Advice

 

Play AA cruiser. Same as Asashio, Graf seems to be wg way to balance BB spam in randoms. Or rather make everyone buy it because they mainly focus on dealing dmg to BBs and "That's a lot of damage". Besides balancing out bbs won't make profits.

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9 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Alternatively your own CV can shut down a GZ easily unless he's also playing one or a Lexington. Or he's just incompetent.

 

The 1-2-1 yes. 

But the 2-0-3 setup too?

 

It is on par fighterwise with Enterprise and Shokaku, according to Fara. 

Enterprise can bleed it out though, just like any other CV, I guess... 

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10 hours ago, narbar said:

I was looking for some advice on how to counter the Graf Zep as a BB.

It's called "Teamwork". Don't sail around alone ignoring your whole team, especially your cruisers. No CV will be able to drop you through combined AA of multiple ships

 

9 hours ago, Belustigungspanda said:

you can't do anything but play passive

No, it comes down to "it's a team game not your 1v12 showdown"

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The problem with the GZ AP DBs is that it's basically all about RNG from what I've seen.

 

As the target of such a strike, there's nothing you can do but hope for good AA RNG to shoot down as many of the aircraft as possible and then pray to RNGeezus that the ones that make it through miss you or don't penetrate your citadel for that massive damage.

Even DFAA isn't that much helpful outside of boosting the AA dps because the panicked drop radius on those DBs isn't as dramatically larger as it's with other CVs' DBs.

 

 

Imho the DBs might need an adjustment to the panicked drop radius (make it larger)m because from what I've seen from competent CV captains commenting on the GZ, the DBs are essentially left-click fire-and-forget. Which is doubly unfortunate since this kind of low-skill, high-reward correlation likely means that once the GZ gets on sale again, potatos are going to flock to the ship.

 

I wouldn't mind too hard if it were only BBs suffering from it, but as it stands there's a good chunk of cruisers who also can (and will) get outright deleted by those AP bomb strikes. Hell, AA monster ships like the Des Moines can get OSKed by Midway AP DBs through DFAA if just enough DBs make it through the DFAA and RNG hates your guts to send enough of them bombs into your citadel. If you can literally nuke your hardcounter just because RNG was on your side, something's wrong imo.

 

 

At least that's the impression I'm getting from reading/viewing CV player opinions, don't have a GZ (or another CV with AP bombs for that matter, haven't touched my Lexi yet) so no firsthand experience from being on the delivering side.

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11 hours ago, narbar said:

Hi, I was looking for some advice on how to counter the Graf Zep as a BB.  I'm hoping its just me been naïve but that thing looks seriously OP, to the extent its actually ruining the game.  Ive tried grouping up with other ships but it just seems to pick its target and destroys it in one fly over.  Waits a few minutes and comes back to destroy the next ship that was in the formation.  

 

Any advice will be appreciated as I am currently getting annoyed at this gameplay style and I'm hoping theres something I can do about it as a BB apart from hope our the Graf Zep dosent choose me.

 

Thanks Dean

Your only way to counter it is team play.....you need help to defend yourself, you can not do it alone....best solution is strong AAA cruiser with defensive fire.....CV will not risk getting decimated just to drop on you.....it will find other targets.

 

i dont have GZ, but i saw its review and game play and i dont like this left click AP bomb fiesta which eaven dont force you to choose your approach to ship because of circular drop pattern

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10 hours ago, Belustigungspanda said:

@triumphgt6: It's not just Atlantas. Recently i observed a Des Moines getting absolutely wrecked in one single bomb run...and it didn't shoot down a single plane out of 3 DB waves.

 

@El2aZeR: So basically it all comes down to "you can't do anything but play passive, click-focus those bombers and pray for the bless of RNGsus". Well done, WG. :Smile_sad:

If DM did not shoot single plane it is problem of a DM captain who did not take single AAA talent and probably took hydro....DM melts T10 planes if speced and deff AAA used.

 

and AP bombs deals greater dmg to t10 cruisers than BBs....because....WG logic

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Bring out the pitchforks and make it a monster that can wreck a Des Moines! 

The ship feels just as weak as the other T8 CVs in a TX game, but hey, let's keep up the rant. 

 

So what happens to a Bismarck that doesn't stick to his friendly AA when a Shokaku sees him? 2x fires followed by a perma-flooding. 

All CVs are just murdering silly lone-wolf BBs. 

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10 minutes ago, 15JG52Adler said:

If DM did not shoot single plane it is problem of a DM captain who did not take single AAA talent and probably took hydro....DM melts T10 planes if speced and deff AAA used.

 

and AP bombs deals greater dmg to t10 cruisers than BBs....because....WG logic

Or all his AA got destroyed by some HE salvos (from those nasty BBs)

 

(just played a space battle as Minotaur, i got stripped of all but my mainguns as AA, just as example)

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11 minutes ago, Seeigel said:

Or all his AA got destroyed by some HE salvos (from those nasty BBs)

 

(just played a space battle as Minotaur, i got stripped of all but my mainguns as AA, just as example)

Conqueror excels in that....it is solution too

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17 minutes ago, Seeigel said:

Or all his AA got destroyed by some HE salvos (from those nasty BBs)

 

(just played a space battle as Minotaur, i got stripped of all but my mainguns as AA, just as example)

 

Since most AA on DM is coming from medium sized 76mm guns, 2 salvos of that stupid RN BB HE should take it away. 

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[WCWVE]
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Ended up with a Graf Zepplin against Enterprise, then against Musashi with torpedoes, the fighters tore through my fighters in no time - and two torpedo bomber squadrons ended musashi very quickly as well.  They even tore through massive AA too deliver there strikes and seemed to ignore it 

 

8 planes per squadron is the problem, if they (WG) reduced the squadron size to 6 that might make this ship more balanced - as it currently is it can delete virtually every ship in the game with no problem 

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5 minutes ago, pzkpfwv1d said:

Ended up with a Graf Zepplin against Enterprise, then against Musashi with torpedoes, the fighters tore through my fighters in no time - and two torpedo bomber squadrons ended musashi very quickly as well.  They even tore through massive AA too deliver there strikes and seemed to ignore it 

 

8 planes per squadron is the problem, if they (WG) reduced the squadron size to 6 that might make this ship more balanced - as it currently is it can delete virtually every ship in the game with no problem 

 

GZ 1-2-1 doesn't have a single(!) fighter wave in reserve. 

 

You simply got outplayed massively in your Enterprise, as you actually had a huge advantage with your reserves. 

 

Next time just click on his fighter wave to bleed him out, if you can't do it with strafing. 

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12 hours ago, narbar said:

Hi, I was looking for some advice on how to counter the Graf Zep as a BB.  I'm hoping its just me been naïve but that thing looks seriously OP, to the extent its actually ruining the game.  Ive tried grouping up with other ships but it just seems to pick its target and destroys it in one fly over.  Waits a few minutes and comes back to destroy the next ship that was in the formation.  

 

Any advice will be appreciated as I am currently getting annoyed at this gameplay style and I'm hoping theres something I can do about it as a BB apart from hope our the Graf Zep dosent choose me.

 

Thanks Dean

 

Speed, answer is speed. And of course, the country of your BB... if you have a non "fragile against AP boms" BB, and you going to max speed, AP bombs can be very bad.

 

The problem is that CV will have few "attacks" and that is compensate doing more damage for "strike" With better planes (with more odds to remain alive) and better fighters (to can fight against the rest of CV) damage for run can be lower... but a bad desing scheme from WG with the GZ need be compensate with exagerated damage (specially against some countries).

 

 

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I really dont see an effective counter beside having a friendly escort next to you who has DFAA.

 

Ships with high AA is not quite enough unless with an AA build.

 

DFAA is the key because it panics the planes. With no DFAA, you might make GZ pay heavily for a drop, but the attack would still be conducted, which is more like a lose-lose situation... :Smile_facepalm:

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Werent they "fixing" this ship for like 8 months?

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9 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

Werent they "fixing" this ship for like 8 months?

You're joking, right? Right...?:Smile_amazed:

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12 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

You're joking, right? Right...?:Smile_amazed:

Im not sure myself ....

 

Im just saying ... after months of waiting are we finally getting threads that its OP?

 

Gotta love Fem :)

Spoiler

 

 

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3 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

It's called "Teamwork". Don't sail around alone ignoring your whole team, especially your cruisers. No CV will be able to drop you through combined AA of multiple ships

 

No, it comes down to "it's a team game not your 1v12 showdown"

 

I don't know about your high tier matches, but for me, they are looking quite like this: DDs fight for the caps and/or try to get DoT on second row ships from invisibility/smoke. Right behind them, there are the brawler type BBs (mostly german and french) because that's the distance where their armament is reliable enough. Right next to them there is only one type of cruisers, and that's the british "dakka dakka with bad trajectory from smoke" CLs. All the other cruisers typically don't get close until the enemy is on the run yet, but instead they sling HE from distance and dodge incoming shells to maximise their survivability. Close to them, there are the passive long-range battleships,  typically speaking the japanese ones with their bad manoeuvrability and the british ones with their magic HE that doesn't care about angling at all.

So we have two groups of battleships, and while british cruiser AA certainly is very strong, the brawler type BBs end up with the short end of the stick when it comes to possible teamplay against carriers. They are right in front, so the enemy CV doesn't need to risk planes by crossing another 5 or so kilometres towards the camping BBs in the back, and as a consequence the brawlers will get focused. Now there aren't british cruisers in any matchup to provide frontline AA cover, but if they are near, there's another problem with them as they don't have access to defensive AA. All they can provide is their pure raw AA firepower. Thanks to Graf Zeppelin's circular drop pattern, a somewhat competent CV player can chose the least dangerous way to approach the BB and stay out of the british cruiser's AA bubble for the longest time possible. All in all, the offensive brawler is the one who suffers most and is forced to abandon his team's DDs on the caps most of the time. AP bombs and the GZ in particular are promoting passive BB gameplay from distance and they harm exactly what the german BBs have been praised for since their arrival, and that's that they are (were) offering incentives to push and get right into the action.

It's not about playing lone wulf or being able to take on the enemy team on your own. It's about team support, distracting the enemy's formation, drawing fire and leading the push. It's about all the things that you expect from good teamplay. And WG just doesn't realize that they are killing this with silly ideas like AP bombs, circular drop patterns and deep water long range torps (Asashio...).

 

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

If DM did not shoot single plane it is problem of a DM captain who did not take single AAA talent and probably took hydro....DM melts T10 planes if speced and deff AAA used.

 

I don't know about this DM's skill set, but even without any focus and without defensive AA active you should expect to see at least some T8 planes falling out of the sky...which they didn't...because RNG.

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2 hours ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

Bring out the pitchforks and make it a monster that can wreck a Des Moines! 

The ship feels just as weak as the other T8 CVs in a TX game, but hey, let's keep up the rant. 

 

So what happens to a Bismarck that doesn't stick to his friendly AA when a Shokaku sees him? 2x fires followed by a perma-flooding. 

All CVs are just murdering silly lone-wolf BBs. 

I recently was in a game where the GZ managed to get 11 kills. No other CV Can do this. It's borderline OP.

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