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Infiriel

Praise the POIboat - IJN DD rework.

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We all know, that IJN DD`s are getting the short end of the stick with each new version.
More Hydro ships, more Radar ships, more discount Gearings (Yueyang), along with Radar, and hydro physics allowing the "Cruisers camping behind islands" meta all add up to what we can see in IJN Line`s winrates.
I`m not even touching problems faced by all DD`s in general like BB`s AP "questionable mechanics".
Each and every standard (non-reward) IJN DD that relies on torpedoes for damage has a considerably worse, or just the worst winrate in it`s tier.
The only exception from this are aforementioned reward ships, like Shinonome, or Kamikaze deriverates that are used by significantly more expereienced players for the purpose of seal-clubbing, which isn`t exactly viable data.
There is also one glorious exception named Shiratsuyu (~Poiii), which technically is a gunboat, but it doesn`t seem to play like one.

Spoiler

 

T5.thumb.png.c1f606687365c344b56c7e5f8b7c1cf5.pngT6.thumb.png.f34488cb781c4f6260e2ee1f9420c88a.pngT7.thumb.png.969f1f7054ca618954a7cb1dcfb6b327.pngT8.thumb.png.a229b7f9de69702598e3e6fb737b1592.pngT9.thumb.png.bb66ae48261efc0a50f107ff46218999.pngT10.thumb.png.86cb79f208598070d1317da8a7d891c2.png

 

My point here is clear: IJN line is - surprise, surprise - underpowered, and it needs some love.
However what i`m going to suggest will affect both torpedo, and gunboat lines since i belive the latter is somewhat overpowered.

 

Option 1:
Completly remove Torpedo Reload Booster from the gunboat line, and add it to torpedo line`s tier 5+, but not Shimakaze, as an option replacing the smoke generator.

 

This is in general what we already get on Kagero, and Yugumo, and it`s both logically, and historically viable option since every destroyer down from Mutsuki (and except Shimakaze) has had spare torpedoes onboard. This should also make the role of torpedo line more apparent, since ATM gunboat line can pop almost the same amount of torpedoes while also having guns at their disposal.
Now regarding the gunboat line: I belive that Shiratsuyu, and Akizuki are borderline overpowered as they are, where Shira excels in torpedo combat, and Akizuki in sheer firepower, so removing TRB wouldn`t really hurt either of those that much. After all gunboats should be GUNboats.

 

Option 2:
Rework smoke into one similar to Perth/Huanghe smoke.

 

Everyone knows that IJN smoke is mid-way among smokes of different nations, however it`s not particularly useful for IJN DDs since aside from Akizuki, Yugumo, and Shimakaze it can only be really used to, shield allies (still it`s way better to play US, or PA DD for this), disengage, or ambush an enemy with torpedoes due to very low gunpower.
To offset this i`d like to suggest replacing torpedo line`s smoke generator with the one found on Perth, and Huanghe - with a very short duration of the "smoke puffs", and quite decent (15-20s) duration of the consumable itself, aswell as adding in a few charges, so that you can engage more often, and safer.

 

Option 3:
Remove wide spread for torpedo launchers, and replace it with Parallel, or single torpedo launching modes.

 

I belive this one is the most questionable option, however it`s not hard to notice that torpedo spread angles are atrocious - insert joke about battleship-sized gaps between torps.

 

Spoiler

shot-18_04.01_17_56.57-0004.thumb.jpg.e303e385c4694f33c43b1657128974f7.jpg

 

This is how a "narrow spread" looks like at 6.5km (Shima concealment is currently 5.9km with a full stealth build) - it`s already bigger, than the flat broadside of a biggest ship in the game.

This makes landing your torps quite challenging, even if your target sails in a straight line, and doesn`t run hydro.
Also as i found out by creating THIS thread wide spread isn`t going to be missed: aside from panic drops it`s hardly ever used anyway.

If there is a "narrower" spread option it`d be obviously harder to randomly hit 1 torpedo here, and there, however good predictions will be rewarded, and you won`t be able to just zerg rush IJN DD anymore.

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Shim was one of the first T10s I got, then I went through a couple of other lines for DDs and realised how poor it can perform to other destroyers. I'm glad they decided to buff it's concealment, considering my gunboat build on the YeuYang has better concealment than the torpedo reliant DD.

 

Torpedoes are stronk on the shim, and with that 5.4 concealment that it will eventually receive, that narrow spread will be fine imo, with the exception of a few BB's with their bulges, even 3 torp hits will bring it's health down to half or less. I would suggest to improve the IJN's torp detectability but I figure that might make the shim too strong  

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50 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

every destroyer down from Mutsuki (and except Shimakaze) has had spare torpedoes onboard.

Well actually no, the Fubukis did not, at least, not during the war.

Just figured out I'd say that.

Also the Mutsukis had reload ? I never went as far back but reloading their fore tube seems questionnably impossible at sea considering its position and the lack of any palce for reloads to be. Then again, this is a honest question : I don't know.

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25 minut temu, _Xaero_ napisał:

Shim was one of the first T10s I got, then I went through a couple of other lines for DDs and realised how poor it can perform to other destroyers. I'm glad they decided to buff it's concealment, considering my gunboat build on the YeuYang has better concealment than the torpedo reliant DD.

Yueyang also has way better smoke, and way more reliable torps, even though they can`t hit DD`s - but at range where your torps would be reliable against DD`s you can just murderize them with discount Gearing firepower.

 

25 minut temu, _Xaero_ napisał:

Torpedoes are stronk on the shim, and with that 5.4 concealment that it will eventually receive, that narrow spread will be fine imo, with the exception of a few BB's with their bulges, even 3 torp hits will bring it's health down to half or less. I would suggest to improve the IJN's torp detectability but I figure that might make the shim too strong  

No doubt they are strong, but you have to land them first.
And you can`t really use that concealment offensively aside from late game because again, if you get get there and drop torps you will be radared instantly.

11 minut temu, LastButterfly napisał:

Well actually no, the Fubukis did not, at least, not during the war.

Fubuki-class has had 18 torpedoes on board, hence it must have had an ability to reload.

11 minut temu, LastButterfly napisał:

Also the Mutsukis had reload ? I never went as far back but reloading their fore tube seems questionnably impossible at sea considering its position and the lack of any palce for reloads to be.

image.thumb.png.147247d4885a6306bde7ae8f6d24be70.png

Same story as Fubuki - i belive this is what those rails ending near torpedo launcher are for.
Mutsuki used to have a compliment of 12 torpedoes store as i belive in those boxes near funnels.

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1 hour ago, Infiriel said:

Now regarding the gunboat line: I belive that Shiratsuyu, and Akizuki are borderline overpowered as they are, where Shira excels in torpedo combat, and Akizuki in sheer firepower, so removing TRB wouldn`t really hurt either of those that much. After all gunboats should be GUNboats.

I seem to recall something WG said that it's not actually a torpedo line and a gunboat line, but that's what people keep calling them. I forget exactly what they called them, though. One's faster, and the other is stealthier, Akizuki aside, which doesn't fit anything at all, since other than Tachibana it's the only real gunboat. Shiratsuyu isn't a gunboat, for one. It's a stealth torpedo boat. So, removing TRB would hurt Shira a lot. That's not an option without a significant buff. That line is really what should lead to the higher tiers, since the gameplay is a lot more similar.

 

10 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

And you can`t really use that concealment offensively aside from late game because again, if you get get there and drop torps you will be radared instantly.

You can use concealment. I use it all the time in Yuugumo, and Shima's better at it because of the speed. You can easily go in, drop torps, and get out.

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This is true, I was a fan of the speedy (8km?) torpedos you can get on the shim and I found those to be the most effective for me. The concealment buff is a good start, not sure if it will be enough to make it perform as well as the other DD's though.

 

You could buff the reload of the guns so the shim has some offensive capability other than the torpedoes if you cross lines with another DD, but then the whole point of the alternate line was to give you a IJN gunboat rather than a torpedo heavy boat like the shim

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9 minut temu, _Xaero_ napisał:

This is true, I was a fan of the speedy (8km?) torpedos you can get on the shim and I found those to be the most effective for me. The concealment buff is a good start, not sure if it will be enough to make it perform as well as the other DD's though.

F3 torps are great, but they put you in range of enemy radars, aswell as make spotted retreat (and by that i mean dodging shells) way harder. Also they require you to fire at advancing, or parallel targets due to their limited range, which considering how your primary targets (BB) play might be quite a nuisance.

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2 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

F3 torps are great, but they put you in range of enemy radars, aswell as make spotted retreat (and by that i mean dodging shells) way harder. Also they require you to fire at advancing, or parallel targets due to their limited range, which considering how your primary targets (BB) play might be quite a nuisance.

Indeed. With the concealment buff, a torpedo detectability buff for the shim should also be considered imo, with a line that solely relies on torpedoes to deal with targets, it seems counter productive for them to have a terrible spotting range (considering all the consumables, the commander skill and module that is available for players to deal with torpedoes)

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Just one  thing? you aware that there is no IJN gunboat line wich you can remove the TLR from? there is a 2ed slow/stealthy  Torpedo line that ENDS in a gunboat..........

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57 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

Fubuki-class has had 18 torpedoes on board, hence it must have had an ability to reload.

 

Yes but the spares were removed during the rabalancing between 1935 & 1937.

 

57 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

i belive this is what those rails ending near torpedo launcher are for.

 

I wouldn't judge by the rails only. Kitakami and Ooi were litterally covered in rails, but these were to make easier reload in port, and they hardly carryied spares during their active careers.

Alsso I wouldn't judge based on WG's models. WG has proven in the past that they are not a reliable historical source.

 

I would love an actual source about Mutsuki's spares - just to be sure. If you have any on hand - otherwise I'll look myself ^^.

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18 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

Just one  thing? you aware that there is no IJN gunboat line wich you can remove the TLR from? there is a 2ed slow/stealthy  Torpedo line that ENDS in a gunboat..........

True, I imagine they would add another two boats similar to the Aki in terms of fire power to complete the tree though, the whole alternate tree isn't a gunboat line of course, though I think it would end with gunboats from Aki onwards

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10 minut temu, LastButterfly napisał:

 

Yes but the spares were removed during the rabalancing between 1935 & 1937.

 

 

I wouldn't judge by the rails only. Kitakami and Ooi were litterally covered in rails, but these were to make easier reload in port, and they hardly carryied spares during their active careers.

Alsso I wouldn't judge based on WG's models. WG has proven in the past that they are not a reliable historical source.

 

I would love an actual source about Mutsuki's spares - just to be sure. If you have any on hand - otherwise I'll look myself ^^.

IJN armored (splinter proof) torpedo boxes are rather characteristic, and they do exist on both Fubuki, and Mutsuki in-game model.
Also HERE spares are mentioned. For Fubuki it`s page 276 of the same book.

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28 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

IJN armored (splinter proof) torpedo boxes are rather characteristic, and they do exist on both Fubuki, and Mutsuki in-game model.
Also HERE spares are mentioned. For Fubuki it`s page 276 of the same book.

 

Page 276 is about the Hatsuharu class, not Fubuki. Be careful.

Also I... do not remember saying anything about the launcher shields. So... why are you mentionning them ?

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14 minuty temu, LastButterfly napisał:

Page 276 is about the Hatsuharu class, not Fubuki. Be careful.

Also I... do not remember saying anything about the launcher shields. So... why are you mentionning them ?

Ye i screwed up with 276 :)

I didn`t mean launcher shields though, but rather armored boxes which held spares to avoid setting torpedoes off by small-caliber gunfire, splinters, and nearby HE blasts: which obviously means there were spares aboard.
Here you have boxes on Kagero (they look all the same on all IJN DD`s)
 

Spoiler

shot-18_04.01_22_15.25-0798.thumb.jpg.b4a23695dffe8bcb98914d1dd48c9c74.jpg

 

Fubuki seems to have it`s boxes build into superstructure.
 

Spoiler

shot-18_04.01_22_27.06-0822.thumb.jpg.1ded16f5254644a0b8dc199d0db117e4.jpg

But they are visibly separeted from an actual superstructure, and you should also take note that both rails ending mid-lenght of those boxes, and heavy frame around them suggests that "heavy things" were stored in them.
Still i`m a bit too lazy to look up sources other than wikipedia for Fubuki.

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17 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

Ye i screwed up with 276 :)

I didn`t mean launcher shields though, but rather armored boxes which held spares to avoid setting torpedoes off by small-caliber gunfire, splinters, and nearby HE blasts: which obviously means there were spares aboard.
Here you have boxes on Kagero (they look all the same on all IJN DD`s)
 

  Reveal hidden contents

shot-18_04.01_22_15.25-0798.thumb.jpg.b4a23695dffe8bcb98914d1dd48c9c74.jpg

 

Fubuki seems to have it`s boxes build into superstructure.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

shot-18_04.01_22_27.06-0822.thumb.jpg.1ded16f5254644a0b8dc199d0db117e4.jpg

But they are visibly separeted from an actual superstructure, and you should also take note that both rails ending mid-lenght of those boxes, and heavy frame around them suggests that "heavy things" were stored in them.
Still i`m a bit too lazy to look up sources other than wikipedia for Fubuki.

 

Well I went dwelling (wikipedia&others). Sources about them are rare but I think I found the actual answer - neither of us being correct.

Fubuki did as we agreed carry 18 torps total back in her days ; after the 1937, the number of torpedoes aboard apparently decreased to 12 so they stilled carried spares but only for one tube.

I still need to find an actually convincing source, especially since mine claims this number was highly variable amongst the class - but it isn't too far fetched.

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13 minuty temu, LastButterfly napisał:

Well I went dwelling (wikipedia&others). Sources about them are rare but I think I found the actual answer - neither of us being correct.

Fubuki did as we agreed carry 18 torps total back in her days ; after the 1937, the number of torpedoes aboard apparently decreased to 12 so they stilled carried spares but only for one tube.

I still need to find an actually convincing source, especially since mine claims this number was highly variable amongst the class - but it isn't too far fetched.

As the war progressed IJN have put less and less spares oh their DD`s because they found out they dealt the most damage with a first (unexpected) salvo, that is if the second, or third ever happened or did any damage at all.
I read about that in some book regarding battle of Leyte Gulf, but can`t really recall which one.
However this is apparent with Shima, and other late DD`s having very little, or no spares at all.

 

This thread is getting derailed though ;D

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I would like to say that the Shiratsuyu is nowhere near as good as it was, the only thing that made it good was the fact that it had TRB and Smoke, I only had a few games with it before it was nerfed and then stopped grinding the line.

 

Recently I finished the Fubuki (and was able to perform well in it) and just started on the Akatsuki and boy do I prefer it 100% to the Shiratsuyu, which I have started playing again to get the Akizuki. As there is a lot of carriers at those tiers it is suicide to go without smoke so the Shira doesn't have TRB, and through playing them I find the Akatuski is better as both a Torpedo boat and a gun boat to the Shiratsuyu. The only stats the Shiratsuyu has going for it is concealment 5.8km compared to 6.4km, Gun range 11km compared to 10.4km and turning circle, every other stat is in the Akatsuki's favor even turret layout. Having 2 superfiring rear turrets allows you to kite away from enemy DDs and maintain 2/3rds of your guns on target also the turret traverse is faster. The main guns are also AA guns so they can help with the odd fighter spotting you that the Shiratsuyu can't deal with. You have 1 more torpedo per volley and they reload faster, all other torpedo stats are identical, plus 3 launchers is more useful than 2. It's also 4 knots faster allowing it to disengage, where as the Shiratsuyu is out run buy half the cruisers.

 

So what is the Shiratsuyu a gun boat... no, a torpedo boat... no (unless you want to be hard countered by CVs).

 

When TRB was moved to the same spot as smoke the rest of the ship should have been adjusted in some way and the only reason it performed well was due to the 16 torps it could put out at once.

 

The base stats on the Shiratsuyu need another look at and WG have to look at only the data after the change, and maybe even after the US CV rework as they are a more common class an those tiers now thus making smoke even more essential.

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