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dCK_Ad_Hominem

Yueyang is breaking the TX DD balance

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3 hours ago, Rowboat_Cop said:

Feeling wise, it feels like I do a bit more damage per salvo/hit with the yueyang than with the gearing (and I love my gearing also)

I mean, a full salvo HE usually lands between 2500 and 3000 from the yueyang guns, while I get around 1500-2500 with the gearing.

Maybe different fuse-time on the bullets?

Sadly I could not find any data for fuse-time in the game on these boats.

The dispersion also seems to differ.

Doesn't HE explode on contact? Which should mean they're be identical since the only difference between the guns seem to be 800m range.

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7 hours ago, Runegrem said:

Doesn't HE explode on contact? Which should mean they're be identical since the only difference between the guns seem to be 800m range.

That's the thing.

Regarding Penetration.

If you look at the commander skill that adds 30% penetration to HE bullets.

If there is no penetration at all, then 30% of nothing is nothing so it would have no effect.

 

So I am just guessing that there is some kind of penetration.

For example.  I do not know how many times I have citadelled low tier British cruisers with HE guns on destroyers but a lot of times for sure.

Also . British Battleships have a higher penetration on its HE than other ships, that also proves that there is at least some factor of penetration.

Heck, even the game lists Successful HE hits as penetrations: 

he-penetration.thumb.png.8240fa9e64a1235d9a2091dc88f70911.png

 

But the game has some sort of mechanic for bullet vs armor interaction also.
Even if I can not explain the reason or the logic it feels like I land more damage per hit with the Yueyang than with the Gearing.

 

Perhaps it is time for a training-round-test :)

/Me

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Rowboat_Cop said:

If you look at the commander skill that adds 30% penetration to HE bullets.

If there is no penetration at all, then 30% of nothing is nothing so it would have no effect.

Seriously.

It's hardly arcane knowledge...

 

HE shells hitting a target explode on impact, there are no fuses or anything like that. What does happen to check if the shell "penetrated" is a simple comparison of

 - armor at the place of impact (angle doesn't matter at all)

 - shell caliber

For most ships, it's caliber divided by 6; if it exceeds armor thickness, there's a HE penetration.

For some lines (german cruisers and BBs as well as British BBs) the caliber gets divided by 4 instead.

What IFHE does is add 30% to that formula, that's all. Shells still explode on impact (no such thing as fuse time for HE), and on armor of any thickness; there is no possibility, even theoretical, to get a HE overpen.

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So, I did my training round test.

And damage on bullet impact is pretty much exactly the same between the 2 ships.

Both AP and HE.

 

Both did a max of around 3500 per HE hit on all ships as long as you get good hits on the super-structure
Both did a max of bit over 12000 per volley when using AP at close range broadside to Minotaur and Moskva at stupidly close range.

Both did between 3000 and 4000 max when using AP on a Hindenburg broadside at close range.

 

At max range, shooting 3 salvos HE on battleships and all bullets hit, would result in around 6200 damage dealt using both ships.

 

 

The one interesting thing I found was that the Yueyangs armor is crap compared to the Gearing.

Using both the Yueyang and Gearing, at close range (2-3km distance) , using HE, The yueyang would take up to 3500 damage even if you hit the side armor.

But when hitting the Gearing in the same spots, most of the bullets would break or just deal around 1290 damage.

 

 

So, my conclusion is :

I was wrong regarding better guns.

I learned that the Yueyang is easier to kill at broadside (Which would never really happen unless you find a player that still has a lot to learn)

 

Of course the deep water torpedoes being detected at 800 meters is scary for battleships, I also think they have a higher chance of causing flooding. (could be wrong)

And the Radar is scary for other destroyers, but at the cost of having no smoke.

 

And the Gearing is awesome with its 16.5km torps     (I am using the faster torp commander skill getting 13.5~ km torps on that too)

And other destroyers fear the gearing too.

And the Gearing smoke is the best in game, lasting for more than 2 minutes.

 

So in the end.

I really do not think one is better than the other.

 

And on that note.

I am pretty sure I have nothing more to add to this thread :)

 

/Me

 

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On 3/30/2018 at 3:46 PM, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

TLDR; you don't have the Yueyang yourself. 

Hey, I got YY now and it's just as good as I anticipated :cap_haloween:

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YY is the only real choice in CW because of radar and the fact that your team can be trusted to focus fire anything you spot and that radar is so useful

... I was the YY last season for my clan and we've all farmed Stalingrad flags :Smile-_tongue:

 

 

For Randoms I don't think it breaks too much. Still just a DD that can get radar lit or BB AP smashed...

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49 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Hey, I got YY now and it's just as good as I anticipated :cap_haloween:

 

Hey there, I am glad for you. Ejoy it - great ship.

 

I am still thinking that it is quite balanced though. 

It doesn't feel stronger than Gearing in Ranked (especially because there is no focus fire for the Radar). In fact, I prefer to have the Gearing torpedoes and the 21mm armor strip, to fight the enemy DDs. 

And the reaction time on Gearing torps is still good enough for cruisers/BBs. 

 

 

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On 3/29/2018 at 4:48 PM, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Competitive/CW: In competitive it has become the dd of choice since it allows for the mobile deployment of radar. I won't go into the way typhoon and Hurricane clans use her, but she simply dominates the game there. This is not solely due to great play,  which in itself would be fine, but due to her versatility making the other dds irrelevant.

 

I would suggest slight nerfs to her...

 

Do you think that a slight nerf would change the YY meta in CW?

 

Balancing a ship for both Random matches and CW is very difficulty because e. g. the effect of radar is totally different in both game modes.

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On 29.03.2018 at 4:48 PM, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Hello all, 

 

I know I will likely cause quite the lively discussion and there will be people who disagree with what I'm about to say. I shall try to remain as objective as possible and would like to ask you to do the same.

 

It has been a while since the introduction of the pan Asian dd line. I didn't want to jump to conclusions prematurely so I gave it some time, observed, talked to clan mates and started playing the ships myself (currently at chung mu). As it stands now, however, I feel confident to put forth the statement that I consider the Yueyang to be unbalanced in its current form. Let us compare it to the Gearing for sake of ease, as both are very similar:

 

Concealment: 5.8km best in tier by 100 to 200m respectively.

Speed and maneuverability: 36.5kn. Half a knot faster than its American counterpart, bonuses further escalate this in the Yueyang's favour. It also turns better

Guns: identical. 

Hp: Yueyang has 700 fewer hp than gearing. 

Torps: 68kn. 2kn faster than gearings. 13.5km range,  3km fewer range. Damage is identical, concealment a bit better. 

Utility: both get speed boost and smoke. Gearing can trade its speed boost for def aa, Yueyang can trade smoke for radar. 

 

Now let's put these numbers into context. 

 

Random battles: The Yueyang will only be outspotted by Yugumos and Kageros, allowing it to contest caps. It cannot torp dds, but almost always has a guaranteed first shot on its side. This, combined with great dpm and a max damage per salvo of almost 3k make her health disadvantage irrelevant. It can engage cruisers successfully due to its stealthy torps, as it can bbs. When using smoke it has the same damage potential as a Gearing. It is only threatened By carriers and z-52s. When running radar it can dominate a cap even against multiple dds, provided it gets fire support. The fact that its average damage on the server exceeds any other dd, including the Khaba, is Testament to this. 

 

Competitive/CW: In competitive it has become the dd of choice since it allows for the mobile deployment of radar. I won't go into the way typhoon and Hurricane clans use her, but she simply dominates the game there. This is not solely due to great play,  which in itself would be fine, but due to her versatility making the other dds irrelevant.

 

I would suggest slight nerfs to her, beginning with bringing its concealment and maneuverability in line. The fact that this hybrid outspots a dedicated torpedo boat is laughable. Additionally its guns or hp could be nerfed ever so slightly if the aim is to keep its torpedo armament and consumables untouched. 

 

I hope this doesn't come off as too much of a rant, but I truly believe the ship is too good in its current form. 

In a knifefight gearing and z52 are better than yueyang. If any asian DD get rushed by a USN or german DD, its gonna probably lose this engagement. IMO yueyang is fine and doesnt break any DD balance.

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On 6.5.2018 at 10:16 AM, Negativvv said:

YY is the only real choice in CW because of radar and the fact that your team can be trusted to focus fire anything you spot and that radar is so useful

... I was the YY last season for my clan and we've all farmed Stalingrad flags :Smile-_tongue:

 

 

For Randoms I don't think it breaks too much. Still just a DD that can get radar lit or BB AP smashed...

I have been playing her with radar in ranked for about 50+ games. It is just plain brutal as long as your team actually shoots the other dd. 

 

I do not know which ship I will be playing in season 3, didn't have her during the last season. In a competitive environment she is pretty much without alternative though. The thing is, why bring another dd if you can get a good player to play her? 

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3 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

I have been playing her with radar in ranked for about 50+ games. It is just plain brutal as long as your team actually shoots the other dd. 

 

I do not know which ship I will be playing in season 3, didn't have her during the last season. In a competitive environment she is pretty much without alternative though. The thing is, why bring another dd if you can get a good player to play her? 

YY seems to be the top DD yeah, no smoke isn't a big issue as you can either out spot or radar anything else. Plus smoke doesn't save you from radar.

 

Some might argue that smoke let's you use YYs high DPM but when bigger ships have 60k to 100k HP of heavy armour I ask myself is there even a point in firing? The DWT is your non DD damage dealer anyway IMO.

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On 5/6/2018 at 11:14 AM, ghostbuster_ said:

In a knifefight gearing and z52 are better than yueyang. If any asian DD get rushed by a USN or german DD, its gonna probably lose this engagement. IMO yueyang is fine and doesnt break any DD balance.

 

A ship with a detection range which is lower than its radar range is a nasty thing. You can sink the other DD without shooting a single shot. Knife fight isn't the most relevant measure in this case.

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1 minute ago, Negativvv said:

YY seems to be the top DD yeah, no smoke isn't a big issue as you can either out spot or radar anything else. Plus smoke doesn't save you from radar.

 

Some might argue that smoke let's you use YYs high DPM but when bigger ships have 60k to 100k HP of heavy armour I ask myself is there even a point in firing? The DWT is your non DD damage dealer anyway IMO.

Using smoke, Imo, is a mistake on her. 

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4 minutes ago, darky_fighter said:

 

A ship with a detection range which is lower than its radar range is a nasty thing. You can sink the other DD without shooting a single shot. Knife fight isn't the most relevant measure in this case.

Yes, being torped is a factor and YY doesn't carry that threat due to DWT.

 

However being aware of your positioning and watching to see if the enemy has already torped will protect you from eating fish most if the time. RPF helps a lot as you just bow in vs the enemy and you'll be very hard to hit.

 

Also do you know the RPM on a YY and Gearing Vs a Z52? IMO the Z is the weakest of the trio as it's HE is poor and the AP can be angled against.

 

8 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Using smoke, Imo, is a mistake on her. 

 I've seen a fair few YYs in the Premier League play with smoke... But no I'd never pick it, anyone who doubts it just try out radar and don't shoot but instead kite away from stuff you can't kill. You'll find smoke isn't really needed.

 

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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but i find YY loses her torp tubes easily, more than the Gearing is something someone else can chip in on, but it puts YY players in a fix when a tube gets knocked out, do they repair or risk losing it completely, to hold onto that repair whilst in a knife fight. Useful info for brawling with one to is that there will be a good chance a repair will be burned to save the tube.

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1 minute ago, zengaze said:

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but i find YY loses her torp tubes easily, more than the Gearing is something someone else can chip in on, but it puts YY players in a fix when a tube gets knocked out, do they repair or risk losing it completely, to hold onto that repair whilst in a knife fight. Useful info for brawling with one to is that there will be a good chance a repair will be burned to save the tube.

Don't repair and take the risk. Never lost a launcher so far. Besides your priority is to survive the knife fight. Your torps are irrelevant there. 

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Just now, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Don't repair and take the risk. Never lost a launcher so far. Besides your priority is to survive the knife fight. Your torps are irrelevant there. 

Yeah that's the conclusion i have came to, but there is no other DD i have ever even considered it on. It has happened way too much for me on the YY, not sure if that's just an oddity for me, or whether it is a weakness.

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I think I've lost a grand total of two torp tubes completely knocked out in probably 150+ Ranked, CW and Random Battles.

 

The tubes do get disabled but they do on all DDs. You can even aim at enemy ones to an extent in knife fights, just aim upper hull/deck and you might take out a launcher...

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1 minute ago, Negativvv said:

I think I've lost a grand total of two torp tubes completely knocked out in probably 150+ Ranked, CW and Random Battles.

 

The tubes do get disabled but they do on all DDs. You can even aim at enemy ones to an extent in knife fights, just aim upper hull/deck and you might take out a launcher...

Probably just a case of statistical variance for me then, as i lost my tubes (as in destroyed) twice today in 10ish games, and once yesterda, and probably another couple of times in the week prior, those bloody sailors aren't doing their PM properly obviously, lashings shall be given

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6 hours ago, zengaze said:

Probably just a case of statistical variance for me then, as i lost my tubes (as in destroyed) twice today in 10ish games, and once yesterda, and probably another couple of times in the week prior, those bloody sailors aren't doing their PM properly obviously, lashings shall be given

I tend to get my tubes destroyed as well. Only in the YY, it litteraly has never happened in another DD in 4000+ games. :cap_hmm:

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16 hours ago, darky_fighter said:

 

A ship with a detection range which is lower than its radar range is a nasty thing. You can sink the other DD without shooting a single shot. Knife fight isn't the most relevant measure in this case.

And if  the radar is in CD? What then? You dont have smoke and you dont have radar aswell. Sure, in competetiv play radar is a very usefull tool. But does it break the game balance? Nope.

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It's not primarily the radar that makes YY borderline OP. It's basically a Fletcher and Gearing combined.

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On 30/03/2018 at 12:07 AM, fumtu said:

 

 

 

This is not a Yueyang fault. Gearing model is wrong and old. WG should change it and make it better. But I don't see any reason to nerf Yueyang because of this.

Lol, Gearing is maybe the most successful DD in the game for its tiers :D

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8 minutes ago, Benden said:

Lol, Gearing is maybe the most successful DD in the game for its tiers :D

a) nice necro mate

b) no it really isnt...

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YY is still very strong, but considering buffs to Grozo, shima concealment and sort of the Gearing torps, I don't think it's as OP as before. They nerfed the YY smoke slightly, but I wouldn't be surprised if some additional adjustments were made.

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