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dCK_Ad_Hominem

Yueyang is breaking the TX DD balance

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Hello all, 

 

I know I will likely cause quite the lively discussion and there will be people who disagree with what I'm about to say. I shall try to remain as objective as possible and would like to ask you to do the same.

 

It has been a while since the introduction of the pan Asian dd line. I didn't want to jump to conclusions prematurely so I gave it some time, observed, talked to clan mates and started playing the ships myself (currently at chung mu). As it stands now, however, I feel confident to put forth the statement that I consider the Yueyang to be unbalanced in its current form. Let us compare it to the Gearing for sake of ease, as both are very similar:

 

Concealment: 5.8km best in tier by 100 to 200m respectively.

Speed and maneuverability: 36.5kn. Half a knot faster than its American counterpart, bonuses further escalate this in the Yueyang's favour. It also turns better

Guns: identical. 

Hp: Yueyang has 700 fewer hp than gearing. 

Torps: 68kn. 2kn faster than gearings. 13.5km range,  3km fewer range. Damage is identical, concealment a bit better. 

Utility: both get speed boost and smoke. Gearing can trade its speed boost for def aa, Yueyang can trade smoke for radar. 

 

Now let's put these numbers into context. 

 

Random battles: The Yueyang will only be outspotted by Yugumos and Kageros, allowing it to contest caps. It cannot torp dds, but almost always has a guaranteed first shot on its side. This, combined with great dpm and a max damage per salvo of almost 3k make her health disadvantage irrelevant. It can engage cruisers successfully due to its stealthy torps, as it can bbs. When using smoke it has the same damage potential as a Gearing. It is only threatened By carriers and z-52s. When running radar it can dominate a cap even against multiple dds, provided it gets fire support. The fact that its average damage on the server exceeds any other dd, including the Khaba, is Testament to this. 

 

Competitive/CW: In competitive it has become the dd of choice since it allows for the mobile deployment of radar. I won't go into the way typhoon and Hurricane clans use her, but she simply dominates the game there. This is not solely due to great play,  which in itself would be fine, but due to her versatility making the other dds irrelevant.

 

I would suggest slight nerfs to her, beginning with bringing its concealment and maneuverability in line. The fact that this hybrid outspots a dedicated torpedo boat is laughable. Additionally its guns or hp could be nerfed ever so slightly if the aim is to keep its torpedo armament and consumables untouched. 

 

I hope this doesn't come off as too much of a rant, but I truly believe the ship is too good in its current form. 

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I fully and totally agree with you.

The fact that you cannot torp dds is almost irrelevant. 
Any decent dd player at tier 10 will at the very least angle himself (in smoke as well as sailing or capping) in such a way to minimize the torp-hit risk untill all other dds are gone, which would make the "torping the enemy dd" a rather huge misplay from the other  player. At the same time, she can gunboat like a gearing would, and she has basically an always available smoke. The last one particularly renders her super-nasty to fight on a 1 to 1. Most of the other dds will have a certain down-time between smokes. She will always have one available (or at worst withing the next 10 seconds).

 

When a ship is super good at fighting dds as well as at torping other ships, it is definetely on the OP side of things. And the "super-good" at torping other ships is dependant on the practicably unavoidable torps unless you have hydro active or they were plane-spotted.

 

I may sound absurd but if you want a BB-nuking DD, then an asashio is somehow more balanced since it will disintegrate BBs but will loose to any other dd in game.

I think that taking its concealmente to gearing levels and increasing the cooldown time on the smokes would make her more balanced.

 

 

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The inability to hit DD with torps is a huge drawback for cap contesting.

And the concealment advantage is so small it does not really matter, especially since you should not got for a 1v1 in a cap contest anyway.

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Just now, ColonelPete said:

The inability to hit DD with torps is a huge drawback for cap contesting.

And the concealment advantage is so small it does not really matter, especially since you should not got for a 1v1 in a cap contest anyway.

Trust me when I tell you: I can make 100m work in my favour. And of course I will gun down a ship that is at an immediate disadvantage. It is this simple: you shoot first = you get the headstart in the dpm race. With the fast reload and poor rendering you may have even your second salvo on target before the poor  bast*rd can react. 

 

You don't need to torp dds, you simply outplay them. 

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The Yueyang also has another small advantage over the Gearing (and some other DDs) she sits lower in the water which when range angle and speed are taken into account for any given engagement can make it more difficult to land shots or deal damage to it consistently. 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Trust me when I tell you: I can make 100m work in my favour. And of course I will gun down a ship that is at an immediate disadvantage. It is this simple: you shoot first = you get the headstart in the dpm race. With the fast reload and poor rendering you may have even your second salvo on target before the poor  bast*rd can react. 

 

You don't need to torp dds, you simply outplay them. 

Up to now I had no problem with Yueyangs. And no, you do not need to torp DDs, but when you do, you get a kill without losing much HP. And there are enough incompetent DD out there that the ability to torp DD is a great asset.

 

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I'm not sure it's breaking the tier 10 balance, but for a tier 10 dd it seems very strong, perhaps OP. The concealment advantage and the ability to 'always' drop smoke makes it tough to meet when in another dd. I wouldn't mind a slight nerf to it. It seems to do better than most in stats. I started grinding this line a while ago when I noticed its power. Still on Gadjah and I'm in no hurry :Smile_hiding:

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imo comments of ColonelPete are balaced(!) and in accordance with reality. the other comments (favouring a nerf????..."April-fools-joke' maybe:cap_popcorn:) are likely from players driven by the desire to even more  "try to bend  the opportunity for equal counterplay by others"..in their own favour (Desmoines-players?...or: Minotaur-players?...or Missouri-addicts? who knows lol). Whats next: nerfing Z52????? Common, lets all try to keep it fairplay fighting (=equal/balanced) . As an  average player I invested lots of time in the new Pan Asian destroyer-line: have two different 19-points capts (my ChunMu + YueYang have their own permanent captains). I am not doing great in them, but I realy like playing them. I am a solo and average player and I experience the YueYang as follows: other destroyers are real dangerous for me, because their torps can put my YueYang out of position after which it would be very vulnerable  (for instance: forcing it out of smoke...+ Yueyang waiting for cooldown new smoke in that case). Radarships closing in on my smoke are also very dangerous. And yes: the Z-52 presents a real danger for my YueYang. Furthermore: I often face grouped-players (who have teamspeak with each other, coordinating their combined attack on my YueYang etc. etc.). So, YueYang being overpowered(???)...ridiculous. imo, we all like this game very much, so lets not make the mistake that: by pleasing some handful of (super)unicums: nerfing YueYang could well result nerfing our playerbase imo.

 

Last: I highly regard the instructive video-guides of Flamu and Notser: both of these very excellent players do not opine that the YueYang is unbalanced. Flamu more or less (his video) slightly prefers the Gearing over YueYang (in view of AA and torps that cant threaten other dd's).

 

(....kind of think that OP made an April-fools-joke here....if so....it worked'on me...good one!..you got me on edge lol:cap_popcorn:)

 

 

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  1. The Yueyang performs so well, because we still have too many BBs in game (with less BBs the impact from this DD will drop).
  2. The Khabarovsk is not mentioned! Why?!

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5 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

And the concealment advantage is so small it does not really matter, especially since you should not got for a 1v1 in a cap contest anyway.

You see him 1st, you get your guns on target 1st, you fire 1st. That's an advantage.

 

55 minutes ago, principat121 said:

The Khabarovsk is not mentioned! Why?!

Because you compare her with cruisers not DDs :Smile_trollface:

 


 

I'm not sure if I'd say unbalanced, but definitely one of the strongest and most useful DDs right now.

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12 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It is, but it is small.

 

That's what she said.

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21 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

You see him 1st, you get your guns on target 1st, you fire 1st. That's an advantage.

 

 

 

imo you put it too simplistic here: in most cases dd's have some teammate close by (for instance Minotaur). So, "see enemy + right away shoot at enemy" as you state it is theoretical: when you shoot at an enemy dd instantly you get detected for 20 secs (or 30 secs?..not sure) which leaves teammates of enemy dd's enough time to instantly sink your YueYang. So, it depends, and often I DO NOT shoot at enemy dd to keep the possibility to slip away (that is, when enemy support ships close).

 

secondly,  adavantage is following: teammate of Gearing detecting your YueYang and Gearing being good positioned launching 10x well ainmed torps sinking yr Yue while  yr Gearing not hit a single time. That's a REAL BIG advantage.

 

(NB: keep bearing in mind battles ar 12 vs 12 from the start..NOT 1 vs 1 lol)

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2 hours ago, principat121 said:
  1. The Yueyang performs so well, because we still have too many BBs in game (with less BBs the impact from this DD will drop).
  2. The Khabarovsk is not mentioned! Why?!

1. Wrong. It excels at fighting dds and cruisers alike, though its chunk damage is related to bbs.

 

2. I did mention Khaba. Yueyang scores, on server average, 3k damage more. Or about 133% of the other dds average.

 

 

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the Problem of the "opness" of the yue Yang lies in the existence of teammates. if two  dds sail into each other the advantage of the YY is that she can disengage first. as soon as she gets unspotted she pulls her radar and for ~28 seconds the enemy dd stays open because he can't get out of radar range  while the YY can shadow him and her team  shoots the DD. this is her advantage over  other DDs. the ability to keep them spotted while undetected

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7 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

It has been a while since the introduction of the pan Asian dd line. I didn't want to jump to conclusions prematurely so I gave it some time, observed, talked to clan mates and started playing the ships myself (currently at chung mu). As it stands now, however, I feel confident to put forth the statement that I consider the Yueyang to be unbalanced in its current form. Let us compare it to the Gearing for sake of ease, as both are very similar:

 

Concealment: 5.8km best in tier by 100 to 200m respectively.

 

Well Yueyang model in the original Allen M Sumner with compact bridge which is lower than Gearing one. She is also shorter than Gearing so her concealment is better. I don't see anything wrong there. Also WG mentioned that they will think about lowering Shima concealment as possible buff. If that happen Yueyang won't have best concealment in the tier.  

 

Quote

Speed and maneuverability: 36.5kn. Half a knot faster than its American counterpart, bonuses further escalate this in the Yueyang's favour. It also turns better

 

Again true. Allen M Sumner class is faster than Gearing class. Also as a smaller ship has smaller turning radius. Both those things are historically correct. They are not the same class and there are some differences between them.

 

Quote

Guns: identical. 

 

As they were.

 

Quote

Hp: Yueyang has 700 fewer hp than gearing. 

 

Gearing has bigger displacement do yes, also logical.

 

Quote

Torps: 68kn. 2kn faster than gearings. 13.5km range,  3km fewer range. Damage is identical, concealment a bit better. 

Utility: both get speed boost and smoke. Gearing can trade its speed boost for def aa, Yueyang can trade smoke for radar. 

 

Now this is things with which WG balanced ships. If WG needs to do some nerfs than torpedo characteristics would be logical way to do that. All PA DDs have same smoke so they will need to change this for all class which is possible, not that I want that but possible. Radar for smoke instead of DAA for speed boost - I would say a fair trade. Maybe they should do this for Black and Belfast too.

 

Quote

 

Now let's put these numbers into context. 

 

Random battles: The Yueyang will only be outspotted by Yugumos and Kageros, allowing it to contest caps. It cannot torp dds, but almost always has a guaranteed first shot on its side. This, combined with great dpm and a max damage per salvo of almost 3k make her health disadvantage irrelevant. It can engage cruisers successfully due to its stealthy torps, as it can bbs. When using smoke it has the same damage potential as a Gearing. It is only threatened By carriers and z-52s. When running radar it can dominate a cap even against multiple dds, provided it gets fire support. The fact that its average damage on the server exceeds any other dd, including the Khaba, is Testament to this. 

 

Yueyang is outspotted by Kagero/Harekaze, Yugumo and Chung Mu. But she also have same concealment as Benson, Kidd, Fletcher, Black, Loyang and Hsienyang. Also her advantage over some other dds like Gearing, Z-46 or Shima is not that big. Yes it is advantage but in every tier some DD has some advantage over other so it is nothing new or unusual.

 

Using radar is quite risky if you don't have support but if you have it it is a strong. But you can say that for every combination of the some consumable and support. It AA is good but lack of DAA make Gearing much better in that part. 

 

Quote

 

Competitive/CW: In competitive it has become the dd of choice since it allows for the mobile deployment of radar. I won't go into the way typhoon and Hurricane clans use her, but she simply dominates the game there. This is not solely due to great play,  which in itself would be fine, but due to her versatility making the other dds irrelevant.

 

She is a regular ship which means everybody can have it. It is up to clan players to choose will they use it or not.

 

Quote

 

I would suggest slight nerfs to her, beginning with bringing its concealment and maneuverability in line. The fact that this hybrid outspots a dedicated torpedo boat is laughable. Additionally its guns or hp could be nerfed ever so slightly if the aim is to keep its torpedo armament and consumables untouched. 

 

If there is a need for nerf that nerfs should not change her concealment or maneuverability. Alen M Sumner is not a same class as Gearing so why should her have same stats as Gearing. In that case WG could simple put PA version of Gearing instead. Fact that Yueyang outspot Shima to me mean that Shima need some buffs not neft to Yueyang. There is no need to nerf guns. She already can't torps DDs which is a HUGE diference and WG give her a good guns to reduce effect of that. They are not better than Gearing because they were the same guns. But if there is a need to nerf something than torps would be an obvious choice.

 

Quote

 

I hope this doesn't come off as too much of a rant, but I truly believe the ship is too good in its current form. 

 

She is performing well but maybe some other ships like Shima and Gearing could get some buffs instead. Shima concealment should be lower to 5.6-5.7km for start.

 

6 hours ago, peachpest said:

The Yueyang also has another small advantage over the Gearing (and some other DDs) she sits lower in the water which when range angle and speed are taken into account for any given engagement can make it more difficult to land shots or deal damage to it consistently.

 

This is not a Yueyang fault. Gearing model is wrong and old. WG should change it and make it better. But I don't see any reason to nerf Yueyang because of this.

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13 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

This is not a Yueyang fault. Gearing model is wrong and old. WG should change it and make it better. But I don't see any reason to nerf Yueyang because of this.

I was merely pointing out another very small difference between it and the Gearing that along with the other small differences the OP pointed out give it a slight edge and the effect it has when trying to fight it and not simply from a DD vs DD point of view as someone who plays a cruiser in clan battles this small detail as I stated in my post at times makes it hard to hit and deal consistent damage too.

 

I also made no mention that I support it being nerfed but more an observation that a small model difference has an effect most don't give credit for.

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7 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Trust me when I tell you: I can make 100m work in my favour. And of course I will gun down a ship that is at an immediate disadvantage. It is this simple: you shoot first = you get the headstart in the dpm race. With the fast reload and poor rendering you may have even your second salvo on target before the poor  bast*rd can react. 

 

You don't need to torp dds, you simply outplay them. 

 

In the Training room maybe. 

But with support around, there are more important things than getting the first salvo. 

Not being a torpedo threat to enemy DDs is definitely a disadvantage at the cap.

 

40 minutes ago, _Kettenbeisser said:

the Problem of the "opness" of the yue Yang lies in the existence of teammates. if two  dds sail into each other the advantage of the YY is that she can disengage first. as soon as she gets unspotted she pulls her radar and for ~28 seconds the enemy dd stays open because he can't get out of radar range  while the YY can shadow him and her team  shoots the DD. this is her advantage over  other DDs. the ability to keep them spotted while undetected

 

That doesn't work with random teams. 

And you are giving up the ability to smoke. 

The radar is fun in Randoms, but definitely not OP. 

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Give Z-52 torpedos 2km more range and it will become the goto ship for CW.

 

I'd say WG has balanced DDs good enough when there is only a very small change that would flip the optimal choice. Yueyang is optimal at the moment but only by a fraction.

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Daily dose of OP ships i guess?

 

Do I consider YY good? Yes
Do I consider YY OP? No

 

Its more like with carriers, lack of coordination and team usage of "hydro" consumables. Thats why you are punished by YY.

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36 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

That doesn't work with random teams. 

And you are giving up the ability to smoke. 

The radar is fun in Randoms, but definitely not OP. 

it works in every mode either with divisionmates or competent teammates. The point is that every DD is unable to disengage from a RadarYY. Any random player with half a functioning brain focuses a spotted DD. And no DD can evade the radar of a YY because he only knows she is there when she spots him. 

You can evade the radar of a moskwa and des moines because you can spot them before you're in radar range. the minotaur got only a 1.2 km radar Window compared to YY 1.7 km and the YY is much more flexible.

The problem of DDs vs YY is the DD needs to sacrifice map control and spotting to gain teamsupport.

Yes she can't torp you but she can spot you and you can't do something against it

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Damage is high because since the PA DDs are not attractive for normies only DD specialists grind them. YY is strong but Z-52 is better at winning games. Khaba is better at dealing damage. YY is in balance

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11 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Random battles: The Yueyang will only be outspotted by Yugumos and Kageros, allowing it to contest caps. It cannot torp dds, but almost always has a guaranteed first shot on its side. This, combined with great dpm and a max damage per salvo of almost 3k make her health disadvantage irrelevant. It can engage cruisers successfully due to its stealthy torps, as it can bbs. When using smoke it has the same damage potential as a Gearing. It is only threatened By carriers and z-52s. When running radar it can dominate a cap even against multiple dds, provided it gets fire support. The fact that its average damage on the server exceeds any other dd, including the Khaba, is Testament to this. 

I won't say that Yueyang is not a strong DD. What I WILL say, however, is that you underestimate the ships weak points. Yueyang can contest caps, yes. She can't fight other DDs. Still, the lack of torps is a MUCH bigger problem than you think.

 

Normally when you meet a DD, you need to take into account the fact that the enemy may have torps ready. What does it mean? Well, a couple things

1. You can't just sail broadside on to the enemy, keeping optimal distance and peppering him with shells. You need to maneuver so that torps can't get you - because if they catch you with pants down, it's too late to react. Maneuvering tends to limit DPM on fast-firing DD guns since you won't have all on target 100% of the time.

2. If you try to hide in smoke at close range to rely on allied spotting and Radar, you put yourself at a great risk of eating close range torps.

3. If the enemy hides in smoke, you can torp that smoke but can't really chase the enemy INTO said smoke - because if you do, you're extremely likely to eat point-blank torps. Against PA DDs, however? You can literally sail into their smoke and feed them a face full of torps from point-blank range before they get to accelerate.

 

I main Akizuki. I fear Gearings. Yueyangs? I hate their stealthiness but when push comes to shove, YY is a much, MUCH easier opponent.

 

PS:

One additional thing about the damage - no, YY's higher damage reflects emphasis on fighting big ships. Gearings target DDs a lot (they're great knife-fighters) and send quite a lot of torps into smokes (with their range there's no such thing as a smoke cloud too far to torp it). YYs are less adept at fighting DDs but more powerful against BBs and cruisers - so obviously they attack these "high yield" targets and get more damage out of it.

Additionally - you mentioned consumables. It's true that both YY and Gearing have smoke, but it's not the same smoke (and general consensus is that Gearing's is superior despite longer "no smoke right now" period between smoke fading and going off cooldown). The special consumable is also not equal at all - Radar on YY is a nasty surprise for enemy DDs but the trade-off of giving up smoke is HUGE. Defensive AA on the Gearing makes her a nasty nut to crack for DD's worst natural enemy: the carrier. And the trade-off is the speedboost: a nice but hardly essential consumable.

Overall Gearing is at least on par with YY - simply due to superior versatility and utility. There is no breaking of balance there.

Now, all that said, there is, indeed, a balancing problem introduced by YY to tX DD play, but it's only in relation to one particular case: the shima. Shimakaze suffered enough with having no stealth advantage over certain DDs with much superior guns. Leaving her with WORSE stealth than such enemies really isn't something that should've happened. Then again, I heard that she is supposed to get a buff and concealment is exactly the thing they're thinking of.

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3 hours ago, _Kettenbeisser said:

it works in every mode either with divisionmates or competent teammates. The point is that every DD is unable to disengage from a RadarYY. Any random player with half a functioning brain focuses a spotted DD. And no DD can evade the radar of a YY because he only knows she is there when she spots him. 

You can evade the radar of a moskwa and des moines because you can spot them before you're in radar range. the minotaur got only a 1.2 km radar Window compared to YY 1.7 km and the YY is much more flexible.

The problem of DDs vs YY is the DD needs to sacrifice map control and spotting to gain teamsupport.

Yes she can't torp you but she can spot you and you can't do something against it

 

Other than in CW, that 28sec radar is only a real problem in Randoms, if you get too close to the enemy fire support. The focus fire is just not nearly as dangerous. 

 

And as long as you don't know the Yueyang position, just don't be too aggressive, simple as that.

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