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Mutsuki... whats the point?

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I'm working my way down the Japanese Destroyer line.. I'm at the Matsuki with 3% Camo/Defect .. which makes is 6.2 down to 6.0... But every other destroyer I have faced today, spots me way before i spot them... Last game, MInekazi what has double my firepower, spotting me, when i finally got to see him it was at 5.5km .. by then I'm dead in the water with my 2 pea-shooters... so its making me think thats its a pointless ship,  weak fire power is 2x120m guns Vs Minekazi 4x120mm Guns.. a few lucky hits .. and its down to Davy Jones locker for me.. 

 

Is there a way for this ship to decrease its detection further? as i cant compete in a gun battle with a fellow destroyer I'm outgunned.. :( my best hope is to smoke up and run..

 

My Commander points are Preventative Maintenance, Last stand and Superintendent (reaso for edit) 

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.. 

Mutsuki.JPG

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26 minutes ago, Sark74 said:

I'm working my way down the Japanese Destroyer line.. I'm at the Matsuki with 3% Camo/Defect .. which makes is 6.2 down to 6.0... But every other destroyer spots me way before i spot them... 

 

Sure... :Smile_facepalm:

Why do you not just check Concealment Ranges of ships before you post that stuff?

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ColonelPete.. unless im mistaken.. I posted 2 screenshots.. of the 2 ships... mine has the lowest... but i get spotted first.. .. Im asking what can i do, i have the lowest "detecability by sea" range ... but other spot me first =( 

 

and no.. im not firing.. im trying to get in close to let off my torps.. 

 

 

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There is a captian skill for 4 points "camouflage expert (CE)" that reduce the concealment for 10% => eg. for Minekaze, Mutsuki, Kamikaze, Fujin (Tier 5 japanese DDs) from 6km to 5,4 km. Wihtout CE it could be pretty hard to play japanese DDs.

 

And japanese DDs are torpedo based, try to avoid gunfight if it possible.

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Yes, you did. But you made wrong claims about every destroyer.

 

If just want to know about Mutsuki vs Minekzae: Use Concealment Expert, then you spot each other at the same time. The enemy had a better captain than you.

Apart from that, I would try to avoid gun battles against Minekaze. Get your teammates to shoot him, that means not to sail around alone.

 

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On 3/25/2018 at 7:28 PM, Spartan_93 said:

There is a captian skill for 4 points "camouflage expert (CE)" that reduce the concealment for 10% => eg. for Minekaze, Mutsuki, Kamikaze, Fujin (Tier 5 japanese DDs) from 6km to 5,4 km. Wihtout CE it could be pretty hard to play japanese DDs.

 

And japanese DDs are torpedo based, try to avoid gunfight if it possible.

Thank you, that's all i wanted to know. :) I don't have the Camouflage Expert talent yet so i'll just have to make do.. That explains not being able to see Minekazi's until 5.5km's... 

 

Cheers :) 

 

 

On 3/25/2018 at 7:28 PM, ColonelPete said:

Yes, you did. But you made wrong claims about every destroyer.

 

If just want to know about Mutsuki vs Minekzae: Use Concealment Expert, then you spot each other at the same time. The enemy had a better captain than you.

Apart from that, I would try to avoid gun battles against Minekaze. Get your teammates to shoot him, that means not to sail around alone.

 

I'll edit it.... every destroyer i faced today... my most sincere apologies 

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The Concealment Expert captain skill is by far the best skill for the IJN DDs. I'm not going to say it's necessary, but it is required to get the most out of those ships. Stay in stealth, but try to be as close as you dare, since there your torps are more effective. Max range is worse, even if it's available if you've got no other option. Don't be afraid to smoke up if you're spotted, since conserving your health is important, especially in the beginning. However, don't smoke up if you don't need to, since spotting is one of the main tasks you have, and you can't spot from smoke. You've also don't got good enough guns to sit and shoot from smoke effectively.

 

Your first priority is to keep the enemies spotted so your allies can shoot them down. Your second priority is capping. Your third priority is doing damage and area control with torpedoes.

 

In later ships you get the 127 mm guns, which, while still not up to par with the gunboats, do a fair bit of damage with very good shell arcs. If you get into a gun fight, never fight fair. Most of the time you want to be kiting. Sail away from your opponents and use your max range as much as you can. And don't fight the Russians, as they also have good arcs. The USN ones and copies have bad shell arcs, so you can avoid those easier. Still, don't fight them if you don't have to, and preferably only if you have backup or a significant health advantage.

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19 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

The Concealment Expert captain skill is by far the best skill for the IJN DDs. I'm not going to say it's necessary, but it is required to get the most out of those ships. Stay in stealth, but try to be as close as you dare, since there your torps are more effective. Max range is worse, even if it's available if you've got no other option. Don't be afraid to smoke up if you're spotted, since conserving your health is important, especially in the beginning. However, don't smoke up if you don't need to, since spotting is one of the main tasks you have, and you can't spot from smoke. You've also don't got good enough guns to sit and shoot from smoke effectively.

 

Your first priority is to keep the enemies spotted so your allies can shoot them down. Your second priority is capping. Your third priority is doing damage and area control with torpedoes.

 

In later ships you get the 127 mm guns, which, while still not up to par with the gunboats, do a fair bit of damage with very good shell arcs. If you get into a gun fight, never fight fair. Most of the time you want to be kiting. Sail away from your opponents and use your max range as much as you can. And don't fight the Russians, as they also have good arcs. The USN ones and copies have bad shell arcs, so you can avoid those easier. Still, don't fight them if you don't have to, and preferably only if you have backup or a significant health advantage.

thanks :) much appreciated!.. 

 

I'll never complain about the Mutsuki again.. i just got the Fubuki...its a torp ship, with 7k spot and 6k torps... this 14.5k will be a hard slog :( 

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56 minutes ago, Sark74 said:

thanks :) much appreciated!.. 

 

I'll never complain about the Mutsuki again.. i just got the Fubuki...its a torp ship, with 7k spot and 6k torps... this 14.5k will be a hard slog :( 

You're welcome. :cap_like:

 

Fubuki is a good ship. Well, I think so. I've never actually played the current iteration of her. I played the T8 version a lot, though, and I've played the other two T6 DDs which are fairly similar, Hatsuharu and Shinonome. Just get the upgraded 10 km torps ASAP. Free XP them if you want. And with CE and camo, you can get the concealment down to 6.1 km, I think it is. Or somewhere around there.

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2 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

You're welcome. :cap_like:

 

Fubuki is a good ship. Well, I think so. I've never actually played the current iteration of her. I played the T8 version a lot, though, and I've played the other two T6 DDs which are fairly similar, Hatsuharu and Shinonome.

its okay.. i just lack the xp to buy the 10k torps.. so i get spotted and wiped out before i get much damage racked up.. where on the Mutsuki, if i didnt encounter any destroyers... i could rack up some nice damage .. 

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21 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

The Concealment Expert captain skill is by far the best skill for the IJN DDs. I'm not going to say it's necessary, but it is required to get the most out of those ships. Stay in stealth, but try to be as close as you dare, since there your torps are more effective. Max range is worse, even if it's available if you've got no other option. Don't be afraid to smoke up if you're spotted, since conserving your health is important, especially in the beginning. However, don't smoke up if you don't need to, since spotting is one of the main tasks you have, and you can't spot from smoke. You've also don't got good enough guns to sit and shoot from smoke effectively.

 

Your first priority is to keep the enemies spotted so your allies can shoot them down. Your second priority is capping. Your third priority is doing damage and area control with torpedoes.

 

In later ships you get the 127 mm guns, which, while still not up to par with the gunboats, do a fair bit of damage with very good shell arcs. If you get into a gun fight, never fight fair. Most of the time you want to be kiting. Sail away from your opponents and use your max range as much as you can. And don't fight the Russians, as they also have good arcs. The USN ones and copies have bad shell arcs, so you can avoid those easier. Still, don't fight them if you don't have to, and preferably only if you have backup or a significant health advantage.

 

Concealment Expert is best skill on ANY ship, including carriers*

 

*once Air Supremacy is obtained

 

18 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

You're welcome. :cap_like:

 

Fubuki is a good ship. Well, I think so. I've never actually played the current iteration of her. I played the T8 version a lot, though, and I've played the other two T6 DDs which are fairly similar, Hatsuharu and Shinonome. Just get the upgraded 10 km torps ASAP. Free XP them if you want. And with CE and camo, you can get the concealment down to 6.1 km, I think it is. Or somewhere around there.

Bucky suffers from usual power creep - Gaede is just as decent torpedo boat with competent guns and hilarious amount of hitpoints. Fushun's Deep Water torps are nothing to sneeze at, while rest of the ship doesn't lack either - fast, excellent concealment and gunpower. Turret traverse is fixable with Expert Marksman as well.

 

 

Biggest issue of tier 6-7 DDs is facing T8 destroyers, which can mount Concealment System mod 1, which gives additional edge in detection. And its no fun being outspotted and then outgunned by Bensons. Outrunning them is doable only in Russian gunboat destroyers and even that will take some time (and hitpoints)

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just got the 10k Torps on the Fubuki... this changes everything... :D i love again.. 

 

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1 hour ago, Sark74 said:

just got the 10k Torps on the Fubuki... this changes everything... :D i love again.. 

 

Next time when having torpedo range problems just remember that instead of trying to get into torpedo range (behind island or smoke) you can let enemy come to meet torps during their travel.

By comparing speed of torps to speed of target ship you can estimate how many kms ship will move during travel time of torps.

Instead of directly forward it's just best to launch torps from slight angle.

(though with more than two launchers you can decently well force more than one torpedo hit even head on)

Torpedo range circle in minimap is very good for estimating if enemy ship's course takes it into torpedo range.

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5 hours ago, Panocek said:

Concealment Expert is best skill on ANY ship, including carriers*

I think there are two ships I don't use CE in: Bismarck and Fuso. The former is fully secondary specced, so I just don't have the points for it, and I rarely play in a way it gets useful anyway. The latter having CE means that instead of being spotted from the moon, you're spotted from orbit. Not something that makes a huge deal of difference. I use a more comprehensive survivial build instead.

 

5 hours ago, Panocek said:

Bucky suffers from usual power creep - Gaede is just as decent torpedo boat with competent guns and hilarious amount of hitpoints. Fushun's Deep Water torps are nothing to sneeze at, while rest of the ship doesn't lack either - fast, excellent concealment and gunpower. Turret traverse is fixable with Expert Marksman as well.

Yeah, most of the IJN fleet suffers from power creep. But no, Bucky still has overall better torpedoes, so it's a better torpedo boat.

 

5 hours ago, Panocek said:

Biggest issue of tier 6-7 DDs is facing T8 destroyers, which can mount Concealment System mod 1, which gives additional edge in detection. And its no fun being outspotted and then outgunned by Bensons. Outrunning them is doable only in Russian gunboat destroyers and even that will take some time (and hitpoints)

I remember the old T8 one that actually was a match for Benson, which is still a very solid DD that can handle most situations. Those two were the ships I played the most back then.

 

4 hours ago, Sark74 said:

just got the 10k Torps on the Fubuki... this changes everything... :D i love again..

Yup, that's where it gets fun. The torpedoes are good. Guns not so much, but they work in a pinch.

 

2 hours ago, EsaTuunanen said:

Next time when having torpedo range problems just remember that instead of trying to get into torpedo range (behind island or smoke) you can let enemy come to meet torps during their travel.

Funny story, I once played Kamikaze with my T8 Kagero captain, which at that time had Torpedo Acceleration. That meant torpedoes very close to detectability. However, I didn't even notice until halfway into the game, since I played as I usually do and got the usual results. If you make it a point to torp ships sailing towards you (although preferably not straight towards you), then you'll have a much easier time hitting your targets, since that also means they have a shorter time to react.

 

2 hours ago, EsaTuunanen said:

By comparing speed of torps to speed of target ship you can estimate how many kms ship will move during travel time of torps.

I use 2:1 as a rule of thumb. It's reasonably accurate for most ships in mid and high tiers. Torpedoes are usually in the 60-70 kn range, and ships around half that. But remember that if ships turn, they lose speed, and they don't always sail at full speed to begin with. I have on occasion managed to torp ships that didn't render for me with that kind of estimation.

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1 minute ago, AnotherDuck said:

Yeah, most of the IJN fleet suffers from power creep. But no, Bucky still has overall better torpedoes, so it's a better torpedo boat.

10km, 59kts, 1.5km detection, 16.2k dmg, 76s reload against 8km, 65kts, 1.3km detection 13.7k dmg, 90s reload. Bucky theoretically have higher chance to nuke something, but German fishes give way less time to react, while Gaede can stand up to gunfights... at least for a while

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I found T6 IJN torps borderline unusable. The stock ones have no range. The upgraded ones are waaaayyyy too slow. And I don't even mean reaction time, it's just if you're actually torping at 8-10km even the most potato player will usually find some reason to turn before your torps are anywhere near him and whoops, salvo wasted. IMO the only actually enjoyable IJN DD at T6 is Shinonome.

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44 minutes ago, Panocek said:

10km, 59kts, 1.5km detection, 16.2k dmg, 76s reload against 8km, 65kts, 1.3km detection 13.7k dmg, 90s reload. Bucky theoretically have higher chance to nuke something, but German fishes give way less time to react, while Gaede can stand up to gunfights... at least for a while

I don't find that reaction time makes that much of a difference. I've played around with a bunch of different torpedoes, and reaction time has never really been one of the key numbers to pay attention to. Torpedo Acceleration is for the most part useless to me.

 

28 minutes ago, VC381 said:

I found T6 IJN torps borderline unusable. The stock ones have no range. The upgraded ones are waaaayyyy too slow. And I don't even mean reaction time, it's just if you're actually torping at 8-10km even the most potato player will usually find some reason to turn before your torps are anywhere near him and whoops, salvo wasted. IMO the only actually enjoyable IJN DD at T6 is Shinonome.

If you find that the IJN torps are waaaayyyy too slow, I'm pretty sure you'd have significant problems landing any other T6 torpedoes, since they're not a whole lot faster.

 

And as I usually advice about torpedoes, you should always torp from the closest range you can safely torp. If you have for instance Fubuki, sometimes that's at 6.2 km, and sometimes that's at 13 km. It depends entirely on the situation. However, while you get better chances to hit the closer you are, the longer your max range is the more opportunities you get per match. More opportunities means more hits.

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Every T6 DD except Aigle has faster torps than Fubuki/Hatsuharu by at least 3 knots, some 6 or more. OK some of them are cripplingly short ranged which makes them worse overall, but as you say if you pick the right targets you don't need range. Difference of experience I suppose but I find speed to be the most important stat on a torpedo, if you actually care about aiming it deliberately. With Fubu/Hatsu I felt I was just dumping torps into a void and occasionally getting hits out of sheer dumb luck or enemy stupidity. Even the slight speed bump at T7 makes a huge difference. Shira/Aka are way more fun to torp with than the previous two. As I said Shinonome's combination of 63kt/8km is about perfect for T6. Gaede is the best as @Panocek said, with a slightly faster 65kt/8km.

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The only ship that has faster than 6 kn more than Bucky's torps is Gnevny, with those 4 km torps. And you're still talking about a 10% difference. That means if it takes the torpedo 30 seconds to reach the target, the difference is 3 seconds. If that's what you think makes something go from good to awful, then what you have is either an exaggeration or an emotional argument. You also have to take reload into consideration, since if you can fire more often you will hit more.

 

Yes, you don't need the range if you can pick the target, but that "if" is still there. You can't always pick the target as you like. Again, if you have more options you can fire more often and get more hits.

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Hey, I'm allowed to be a bit emotional too sometimes :Smile-_tongue: it's hard work trying to be the voice of reason in countless other exaggerated whine threads.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, Shinonome ruined the other T6 IJN DDs for me. IMO it's a much better implementation of how I want the Fubuki class to "feel" in game than the silver Fubuki, so the latter left a bad taste for me. Could be I wasn't playing it well enough, could be just playstyle mismatch, but my experience was that the small difference in torp setup was the proverbial last straw on the camel's back between those two ship's.

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Well, I really like Shino as well, which is a very good ship, and as I said, I haven't actually played some of the IJN DDs since the split, because I didn't need the grind, nor did I have reasonable captains to spare. However, I still have a fair bit of experience with those torpedoes in other ships.

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On ‎25‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 4:35 PM, Sark74 said:

I'm working my way down the Japanese Destroyer line.. I'm at the Matsuki with 3% Camo/Defect .. which makes is 6.2 down to 6.0... But every other destroyer I have faced today, spots me way before i spot them... Last game, MInekazi what has double my firepower, spotting me, when i finally got to see him it was at 5.5km .. by then I'm dead in the water with my 2 pea-shooters... so its making me think thats its a pointless ship,  weak fire power is 2x120m guns Vs Minekazi 4x120mm Guns.. a few lucky hits .. and its down to Davy Jones locker for me.. 

 

Is there a way for this ship to decrease its detection further? as i cant compete in a gun battle with a fellow destroyer I'm outgunned.. :( my best hope is to smoke up and run..

 

My Commander points are Preventative Maintenance, Last stand and Superintendent (reaso for edit) 

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.. 

Mutsuki.JPG

Minekazi.JPG

Mutusuki is a stealth fighter. Get clear of the flotillas into open water, find a lonely BB and hit it.  If you have a good level skipper with concealment this boat is the nearest thing you'll get to a submarine.  The BB may never know what hit it. Surface fights? Forget it, the boat is made of balsa wood and armed with peashooters!

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On 3/27/2018 at 3:35 PM, Pompeythegreat said:

 Surface fights? Forget it, the boat is made of balsa wood and armed with peashooters!

that was my issue with it, it was hard to compete when a Minekazi spotted me first, especially if i had escaped a destroyer earlier.. I've struggled on by, up to the Ataksuki now.. that's just another big headache too.. :) 

 

All the help given has been really great so far.

 

Cheers. 

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Yeah, same... I'm this close to scuttling my Mutsuki and abandoning IJN DDs.

Guns are non-existent and it's a bloody Christmas miracle if my torps don't get dodged; and even then it's usually only one or two that hit.

I either have to suicide charge across open water, hope to every single god that the enemy guns don't cripple me before I'm at 4km range, and then while my burning wreck sinks below the waves I have to watch while they still manage to turn and avoid my torps.

How do I make this ship work? Ever?

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