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T0byJug

How To Balance the T61

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Like many DD Players I'm waiting for the T61'.

 

Why.. Well despite what people say she is a real ship that was built and Lunched in Holland during the war.. Even saw action.. Well Kind of.. She was Sunk in the  Waddenzee (of coasts of Holland) by the RAF while on the way to Poland for Fitting out. Not sure if she was under her own power or was being Towed.

 

She is a Sudo Dutch ship..... So Keeps those Lowlanders happy.

She is a German Prem DD.  DD players want that

 

IS she OP as she stands.... MMM hell yes

 

Simple fix she has the same torps as the Gaede so make the reload the same. not over 20 Seconds faster like she is at the moment

 

So i here you say if  do! that and whats the point of her, Just use the Guede as the Guede has 1800 extra HP.

 

Well T61 has faster loading and longer range guns and she is smaller (hence less HP)  so is a better CAP contester as her Detection is only 7.02 (so 0.5KM less). She is a German Prem DD something we do not have.

 

 

Thats my View. What do you think??....

 

Be Sensible Boys and Girls.. Lets See if we cant give WarGaming some ideas and thus enable us to get this DD released Something First promised in December last year

 

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13 minutes ago, T0byJug said:

Simple fix she has the same torps as the Gaede so make the reload the same. not over 20 Seconds faster like she is at the moment

 

Pretty much my thought too. 90sec is standard German reload for quadruple torpedo launcher so I don't see any reason to give T61any better. It already have everything it need to be a good and fun ship to play and it don't need ridicules torpedo reload it has now.

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15 minutes ago, T0byJug said:

Simple fix she has the same torps as the Gaede so make the reload the same. 

Cause this worked so well with Prinz Eugen, right? :Smile_trollface: Any suggestions regarding GIMMICKS?! :cap_old:

 

On a serious note: Wouldn't mind that!

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6 minutes ago, aboomination said:

Cause this worked so well with Prinz Eugen, right? :Smile_trollface: Any suggestions regarding GIMMICKS?! :cap_old:

She is a Stealthier Gunboat with a faster rate if fire with the 128mm guns.. thats gimmick enough i think.

 

 

We Don't need a Gimmick.

 

Main issue with Prinz Eugen/Hipper is apart from a very few subtle differences they are the same.

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13 minutes ago, T0byJug said:

We Don't need a Gimmick.

Let the MF burn!

 

 

Serious section:  I bet that WG is aware of all the obvious parameters that can be tweaked - and they'll consider how much of a power creep  unique experience they want to introduce in order to sell a reasonable number of those.

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I'm not convinced that she'd be wildly OP with the "current" stats, most people are basing their OP screams on the Flamu video with all the hype that went around that, never forget a gunboat with small HP is basically just an XP Pinata. Especially with the usual poor German smoke generator.

 

90s torp reload would make the ship too poorly armed, but a compromise of adding 10s to the reload with her current torpedoes would still keep her capable, but not excessive.

 

Like many here I have been waiting for the T61's release for months and I've been disappointed that despite the morse spoilers they never did, I admit I've got to the point of real annoyance that it has not been released and I've not bought other Premiums I might have considered seriously while waiting.

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10 minutes ago, BeauNidl3 said:

I'm not convinced that she'd be wildly OP with the "current" stats, most people are basing their OP screams on the Flamu video with all the hype that went around that, never forget a gunboat with small HP is basically just an XP Pinata. Especially with the usual poor German smoke generator.

 

90s torp reload would make the ship too poorly armed, but a compromise of adding 10s to the reload with her current torpedoes would still keep her capable, but not excessive.

 

Like many here I have been waiting for the T61's release for months and I've been disappointed that despite the morse spoilers they never did, I admit I've got to the point of real annoyance that it has not been released and I've not bought other Premiums I might have considered seriously while waiting.

Why Poorly Armed.  Gaede has  a choice of 4 128mm guns or 4 150mm guns .

Gaede

4x128s have a 5.1 second reload and a 10.87km range, turret rotation 8’ a second

T61

4x128mms with 4 second reload and a  11.64 range, turret rotation 8’ a second 

 

so the T61 has better guns than one of the Gaede's options.

 

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23 minutes ago, BeauNidl3 said:

I'm not convinced that she'd be wildly OP with the "current" stats, most people are basing their OP screams on the Flamu video with all the hype that went around that, never forget a gunboat with small HP is basically just an XP Pinata. Especially with the usual poor German smoke generator.

 

Ignore Flamu screams and just compare ships data as he did.  T61 has more health than Gallant, Anshan and Shinonome. It has more health than  Farragut or any of silver IJN dds. For T6 dd it has a quite good HP pool. Also yes smoke is worse but don't forget that you are getting additional consumable for free - hydro.

 

Quote

90s torp reload would make the ship too poorly armed, but a compromise of adding 10s to the reload with her current torpedoes would still keep her capable, but not excessive.

 

Why? Compare it with Gallant. It has one second faster gun reload and 28sec faster torpedo reload. And both are similar ships. 90sec to 96sec is still better. You want faster reload? Use TAE, you can get 81sec reload.

 

Quote

Like many here I have been waiting for the T61's release for months and I've been disappointed that despite the morse spoilers they never did, I admit I've got to the point of real annoyance that it has not been released and I've not bought other Premiums I might have considered seriously while waiting.

 

Like so many others. Just like you I would like to see it in the game but not in this state.

 

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There's even more simple and better fix. Drop the sonar and move it to Dutch branch. You get strong a torpedobear without the op gimmicks and a new nation to boost the hype and sales. Germanz will get Z39 so they can do without a second premium DD

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T-61 is a modern German design based around Gerard Callenburgh turbines/boilers to save build time in Dutch yards, all of them would've been fitted out in Germany.

It's not a Dutch ship.

 

Tier 7 to 8 is the best place for this mid/late war design, it's better than Z-39 for the role WG have forced KM DDs into.

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22 minutes ago, 44smok said:

There's even more simple and better fix. Drop the sonar and move it to Dutch branch. You get strong a torpedobear without the op gimmicks and a new nation to boost the hype and sales. Germanz will get Z39 so they can do without a second premium DD

How many people, save for the Dutch, would be willing to buy this ship if it was a stand alone Dutch destroyer? Probably much less than if she was released as a German DD, that's for sure.

Also, the ship never served as a Dutch ship, it was a ship under construction that was adapted by the Germans as the Fleet Torpedo Boat 1940. The HNMLS Tjerk-Hiddes that saw service in WW2 was the N-Class destroyer HMS Nonpareil, so replacing it with a ship that never served under the Dutch flag would be wrong. But wait, there's more. The HNMLS Tjerk-Hiddes is already in the game, as it is nothing more than the Indonesian KRI Gadjah Mada.

I don't see how putting this ship as a Dutch premium would benefit the game. Especially since you would need to remove all German weapons and replace them with scratch built Dutch ones.

 

1 hour ago, fumtu said:

Ignore Flamu screams and just compare ships data as he did.  T61 has more health than Gallant, Anshan and Shinonome. It has more health than  Farragut or any of silver IJN dds. For T6 dd it has a quite good HP pool. Also yes smoke is worse but don't forget that you are getting additional consumable for free - hydro.

But that's the hallmark of all German DDs, they are less agile and fatter that other DDs but in return have better health. Sure the Hydro is a benefit, but at T6 it's worse than cruiser hydro at T4.

 

1 hour ago, fumtu said:

Why? Compare it with Gallant. It has one second faster gun reload and 28sec faster torpedo reload. And both are similar ships. 90sec to 96sec is still better. You want faster reload? Use TAE, you can get 81sec reload.

Sure, looking at reload times the Gallant looks old with 96s compared with a  nerfed T-61. But it can shoot single torps instead of spreads. And that's a huge deal, especially since Gallant is stealthier and can come a bit closer to fire.

 

In my opinion just increasing the torpedo reload to 90s would give us a ship that would be strong but not too strong for it's tier.

 

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2 hours ago, T0byJug said:

Thats my View. What do you think??....

 

Be Sensible Boys and Girls.. Lets See if we cant give WarGaming some ideas and thus enable us to get this DD released Something First promised in December last year

 

they will release it in year of the cv. so soon™ :Smile_trollface:

 

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32 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

But that's the hallmark of all German DDs, they are less agile and fatter that other DDs but in return have better health. Sure the Hydro is a benefit, but at T6 it's worse than cruiser hydro at T4.

 

Yes but T61 is not a typical German dd. With 35kn it is not particularly fast but it has better turning radius and rudder shift than Gnevny or Anshan. It is definitely more agile than Gaeda. And it still get hydro as a bonus. Sure it is not a cruiser hydro but it could be useful.

 

32 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

Sure, looking at reload times the Gallant looks old with 96s compared with a  nerfed T-61. But it can shoot single torps instead of spreads. And that's a huge deal, especially since Gallant is stealthier and can come a bit closer to fire.

 

0.1 km is not a big difference. During the 20 minute game Gallant can send 11 full salvos or 88 torps, for same time T61 can send 16 full salvos or 128 torps. Gallant torps hit harder but general torpedo damage potential of T61 during the game is better. Gallant guns DPM is 81600/100800 HE/AP, T61 is 90000/180000. Damage potential T61 is better than Gallant and Gallant is considered a good boat, not the best but good.

 

32 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

In my opinion just increasing the torpedo reload to 90s would give us a ship that would be strong but not too strong for it's tier.

 

So is that a good or bad?

 

IMHO just increase of torpedo reload time to 90s will still leave a really strong T6 dd, still far better than Gaeda but in acceptable margin and not powercreep all other T6 dd.

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10 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

 

So is that a good or bad?

 

he is saying it would be good and a good way to make her balanced

 

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35 minutes ago, fumtu said:

Yes but T61 is not a typical German dd. With 35kn it is not particularly fast but it has better turning radius and rudder shift than Gnevny or Anshan. It is definitely more agile than Gaeda. And it still get hydro as a bonus. Sure it is not a cruiser hydro but it could be useful.

Of course hydro is useful, but that's the point of German DDs. From T6 up to T10 they can enter a cap and challenge the DDs there. And comparing the ship with Gnevny class ships is like comparing apples and pears, very similar yet different. As it stands the T-61 has a worse turning circle than Farragut and Hatsuharu, plus the IJN and USN DDs have way better rudder shifts. So it's not like the ship has better maneuverability against it's direct opponents.

 

35 minutes ago, fumtu said:

Damage potential T61 is better than Gallant and Gallant is considered a good boat, not the best but good.

Damage potential is one thing, but let's ask ourselves who is going to drive the T-61. Because the numbers you quoted are impressive, and my hat's off to you for providing them. But let's not forget, the T-61 if introduced would be one of the two German premium DDs (one of which is a travesty), which would mean that anyone serious about training his German DD captains would buy it. So with a nerfed torpedo reload this potential would end up most likely as the middle of the road avg. damage.

BTW the two highest avg. damage dealing T6 DDs are the Shinonome and the Fushun. One is driven by experienced players, the other has DWT. The hydro equipped Gaede with the 90s torps is in the middle way below the Gallant.

 

35 minutes ago, fumtu said:

IMHO just increase of torpedo reload time to 90s will still leave a really strong T6 dd, still far better than Gaeda but in acceptable margin and not powercreep all other T6 dd.

Strong premium T6s are not a bad thing IMHO. This is a tier that is mostly uptiered to T7-8, so it faces stiff opposition. Silver ships can be replaced by the next ship in the tech tree, premiums stay where they are.

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34 minutes ago, T0byJug said:

he is saying it would be good and a good way to make her balanced

 

 

fumtu's saying it's still too strong with a normal torpedo reload. It's straight up better than Maass as a torpedo/hybrid boat. They tested Blys at tier 6 until it was released...

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3 hours ago, 44smok said:

There's even more simple and better fix. Drop the sonar and move it to Dutch branch. You get strong a torpedobear without the op gimmicks and a new nation to boost the hype and sales. Germanz will get Z39 so they can do without a second premium DD

Erh, Z39 does not look particularly interesting, in fact not at all... Shelf that and lets get T61, nerf the torp reload a bit and lets have it :Smile_teethhappy:.

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1 hour ago, Aragathor said:

Strong premium T6s are not a bad thing IMHO. This is a tier that is mostly uptiered to T7-8, so it faces stiff opposition. Silver ships can be replaced by the next ship in the tech tree, premiums stay where they are.

 

No they are not but too strong (borderline OP) are. Balancing ship just because it could meet ships of higher tier is wrong. Ships needs to be balanced by their appropriate tier. It is ok that premium ship have some advantages over its silver, or some unique play-style. But having advantage in everything that matters is wrong. Yes potential damage doesn't sound much if you don't know how to use it but if you do that it mean a lot. And that is exactly what T61 bring in the current state. There is not a single characteristic for which you can tell that it is anything but decent, good or very good or even strong ship when you compare it with i other T6. What makes it too strong is that ridicules 68sec torpedo reload. It simple doesn't sacrifice anything for that, it still have a good HP, good guns, good torps, good concealment, good maneuverability... If it enter the game in this state what is next? She will set standards that future premiums could only equal or go beyond to be accepted by community. Yes premium ships stays where they are but premium ships could be buffed if needed but they can only be nerfed by changing global game behavior or removed from a sale if they prove too strong. Just like Belfast and company.

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1 hour ago, fumtu said:

 

No they are not but too strong (borderline OP) are. Balancing ship just because it could meet ships of higher tier is wrong. Ships needs to be balanced by their appropriate tier. It is ok that premium ship have some advantages over its silver, or some unique play-style. But having advantage in everything that matters is wrong. Yes potential damage doesn't sound much if you don't know how to use it but if you do that it mean a lot. And that is exactly what T61 bring in the current state. There is not a single characteristic for which you can tell that it is anything but decent, good or very good or even strong ship when you compare it with i other T6. What makes it too strong is that ridicules 68sec torpedo reload. It simple doesn't sacrifice anything for that, it still have a good HP, good guns, good torps, good concealment, good maneuverability... If it enter the game in this state what is next? She will set standards that future premiums could only equal or go beyond to be accepted by community. Yes premium ships stays where they are but premium ships could be buffed if needed but they can only be nerfed by changing global game behavior or removed from a sale if they prove too strong. Just like Belfast and company.

 

No one here is saying that the ship should be released as it is. In fact the point of the topic is to ask what changes should be made before the release. @T0byJug stated in the first post that the torp reload should be changed to balance the ship. So I see no point in your post,save for repeating what has already been said.

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i think that t61 will be borderline OP when they release it.. and it will be probably in time for t6 ranked. cause nothing sells better than OP ship when ranked is starting...

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First big problem: The german tech tree is mixed up!

In the german navy - Kaiserreich, Kriegsmarine and afaik up to this day - there is a destinction between "Zerstörer" and "Flottentorpedoboot" (not to confuse with "Schnellboote" or E-boats).

 

Here I already sumed up about the Tier VII-X ships:

 

 

Ernst Gaede is based on an very early concept design for the "Type 1934 Destroyer" (while Leberecht Maas is an actual Type 1934).

So she is a pre-war "idea" from around 1933 or even earlier.

T-61 on the other hand was based on a "Torpedo Boat" Design, "Type 1940" to be percise. Wiki-Link[/url]

 

The same goes also for both "V" ships, so V-25 and V-170 are WW1 torpedo boats. The G-101 was a Destroyer design ordered by the argentine navy in 1912 and sized by the german navy when war broke out (4 ships in total).

And you guessed it: T-22 on Tier V is a "Torpedo Boat" again, this time of the "Elbing-class" or Type 1939.

 

Whats the difference?

For WW1 I didn't found anything but later it it mainly the size of the ships, the "Flottentorpedoboot" seldom had ship to ship weapons and were grouped into small flotillas for escort and AA duty while the actual "Zerstörer" could stand their ground alone and also were better suited for the high seas and much longer operations, commerce raiding for example.

 

So we basically need a line-splitt, like the IJN got, to fix one premium ship. T-61 by itself is fine, she's just not a Tier VI ship!

My proposal would be:

Split the line at Tier V and rank every current german Destroyer one Tier down. Gaede Tier V, Maas Tier VI, Z-23 Tier VII, Z-46 Tier VIII and Z-52 Tier IX. For Tier X then a new ship, the Z-60 (or some name) of the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_1945_destroyer]Type 1945 Design. Z-39 should be buffed a little and could stay at Tier VII.

For the "Torpedo Line": T-22 at Tier V, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Fier-class_torpedo_boat]TA-1[/url] (captured from France) as Tier VI, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_destroyer_Dubrovnik]TA-32[/url] (captured from Yugoslavia) as Tier VII, on Tier VIII then T-61 as premium and T-63 or T-65 as silver ship. For Tier IX and X then the Type 1941 and Type 1944 designs...

 

But that's just my opinion...

 

[Edit] Gee, the forum is just working fine as usual Wargaming... Thanks for ruining a post that took me around an hour to make...

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5 hours ago, creamgravy said:

 

fumtu's saying it's still too strong with a normal torpedo reload. It's straight up better than Maass as a torpedo/hybrid boat. They tested Blys at tier 6 until it was released...

 

Yep, it still has better gun power, better stealth, better rudder shift and turning circle and in return it loses 1,800 HP plus one knot of speed, it's not enough of a trade off.

 

Perhaps if they gave it EG's stock G7aT1 torpedoes and nerfed the reload that would do it. 

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8 hours ago, Mandalorianer said:

But that's just my opinion...

 

I kinda like the idea of a Flottentorpedoboot split.

 

Tier 5: Möwe (1923)

Tier 6. T-22 (1939)

Tier 7. T-37 (1941)

Tier 8. T-70 (1940) T-61 as premium.

Tier 9. T-52? (1944)

Tier 10. Fantasy.

 

Use standard KM torpedoes but boost speed by 5 knots and 500m range per tier. (T-22 will have 70 knot, 8.5km torpedoes at tier 6)

They get a torpedo reload booster option over normal smoke.

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21 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

 

I kinda like the idea of a Flottentorpedoboot split.

 

Tier 5: Möwe (1923)

Tier 6. T-22 (1939)

Tier 7. T-37 (1941)

Tier 8. T-70 (1940) T-61 as premium.

Tier 9. T-52? (1944)

Tier 10. Fantasy.

 

Use standard KM torpedoes but boost speed by 5 knots and 500m range per tier. (T-22 will have 70 knot, 8.5km torpedoes at tier 6)

They get a torpedo reload booster option over normal smoke.

 

90 kts/10.5km torps at TX wut

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