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Sunburn52

Allied Damage Punishment OVERKILL

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So I made a stupid mistake at the beginning of a round. While admiring my ship in free-look, I fired off some HE rounds toward the enemy, not realising a friendly battleship was sitting in the middle of my crosshair off-screen. Completely my fault of course, I didn't realise my guns were still pointing off my starboard bow while my camera was looking port. So several of my rounds slam into the friendly BB, though he's a few tiers higher and suffered minimal initial damage from my mistake. Unfortunately, the HE rounds happened to set him on fire... in 3 different spots!

 

Now, either because he was already occupied with a long range engagement or because he simply didn't care that he was ablaze, he did nothing to quell the inferno I'd mistakenly started on his ship. At this point, the game's 'Allied Damage Punishment' system kicked into overdrive. Having already been reprimanded in the chatbox for my error, the anti-teamkill mechanic stared to punish me with HP deductions as the fire I'd accidentally started aboard the friendly vessel continued to burn handsomely aboard the friendly's deck.

 

Now, the 'Allied Damage' system works exponentially, delivering increasingly serious punishments the more you damage your friends. Unfortunately for me, there was nothing I could do to stop the fire aboard the friendly BB. About 8 seconds elapsed between me accidentally laying into the allied battleship with comparatively weak HE rounds, to the game's 'Allied Damage' system becoming so upset with the fire I'd started that it decided to extinguish me from the game completely.

 

FFS.thumb.jpg.6a2a9df8823648f7df64fb63a200e204.jpg

 

I mean.. I've died quickly in rounds before (rushing my destroyer into BB lemming train), but this is a new one.

 

The 'Allied Damage' system did its job, and there's nobody to blame but myself, though I think the setting could be tweaked slightly to be slightly less punishing in the event of friendly rounds starting fire.

 

Anybody else experienced this or suffered a similar fate?

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A computer is stupid therefor do as it is programmed. That means you can not program the server to know if you are firing your rounds accidently or on purpose, 5 games as pink - take your punishment and be more careful - I am always annoyed at those who fling out shots at the start even if they do trifle damage . just do not do it. In my 16000+ games I have been pink too -nothing to be proud of but it can happen to everyone when you are not paying attention.

Back in the days you even could get friendly fire from sec. artillery. But that thing can not happen since quite a while. 

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11 minutes ago, Jhammo52 said:

I didn't realise my guns were still pointing off my starboard bow while my camera was looking port.

Stop bullsh*ting m8, you can't fire guns that aren't pointed EXACTLY where you are looking to

 

So unless you have a replay to prove me wrong - stop lying about your, most likely deliberate, teamkilling attempt. You got what you deserved

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Jhammo52 said:

Completely my fault

 

And probably he wanted to punish you, he could heal that fire dmg back anyways.

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7 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Stop bullsh*ting m8, you can't fire guns that aren't pointed EXACTLY where you are looking to

 

So unless you have a replay to prove me wrong - stop lying about your, most likely deliberate, teamkilling attempt. You got what you deserved

 

 

Eh yes you can. You can free look in another direction from where your guns are pointing. That said, system works as intended and OP is at fault, no doubt.

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6 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

So unless you have a replay to prove me wrong - stop lying about your, most likely deliberate, teamkilling attempt. You got what you deserved

Negative. Guns were approx 20 degress starboard off bow. Had right mouse button held down from the moment the game began. Lack of awareness was the root of my mistake, not itentional team damage.

9 minutes ago, Freyr_90 said:

Sorry but this was totally your fault.. and given that you set three fires on the guy I'd say that everything was working as intended 

3 accidental fires. I don't mind being punised 2x, 5x or even 10x for percentage of damage caused.. but this was something like 100x. 

10 minutes ago, Gnirf said:

Back in the days you even could get friendly fire from sec. artillery. But that thing can not happen since quite a while. 

Wow, that sounds annoying! Haha, glad that's fixed, Bismarks would be miserable otherwise.

1 minute ago, aboomination said:

And probably he wanted to punish you, he could heal that fire dmg back anyways.

Hahaha, yeah I suspected that also, but I didn't like to think someone would be so aware of what was happening.

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If you set 3 fires on a BB with Mogami then the reflected damage is based on the BB's damage received which is a percentage of the base HP of the BB. Obviously each tick was quite a lot it being a BB on fire. Mogami hasn't exactly got a whole lot of HP to start off with so it explains the magnitude of the reflected damage.

 

As others have said he may well have left the fires to burn on purpose because he was annoyed you shot him. Pretty impressive salvo 3 fires at once though :cap_rambo:

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5 minutes ago, BeauNidl3 said:

If you set 3 fires on a BB with Mogami then the reflected damage is based on the BB's damage received which is a percentage of the base HP of the BB. Obviously each tick was quite a lot it being a BB on fire. Mogami hasn't exactly got a whole lot of HP to start off with so it explains the magnitude of the reflected damage.

 

As others have said he may well have left the fires to burn on purpose because he was annoyed you shot him. Pretty impressive salvo 3 fires at once though :cap_rambo:

Ah! Thanks for the info! I had assumed the punishment damage was increasing arbitrarily (and exponentially) for repeat offences. 

 

Yeah, I think only the 3 bow guns were pointed his way, so that's 9 rounds, most of which I assume clouted his superstructure.

Haven't had the Mogami long, it's a great flamethrower though! :cap_rambo:

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1 hour ago, Jhammo52 said:

The 'Allied Damage' system did its job, and there's nobody to blame but myself, though I think the setting could be tweaked slightly to be slightly less punishing in the event of friendly rounds starting fire.

 

Anybody else experienced this or suffered a similar fate?

Such situations are so rare that no change is required. The system is there to eliminate douchenozzles from games quickly and it works as advertised. I would be fine with the damage multiplier being greater than it is currently. I go pink every few hundred games from stray torpedos but that is the sum of my team damage, beyond swapping paint. 

 

It's also perfectly normal to let the fire burn or flooding continue to maximise the punishment of the person who damaged your ship. I know I do. After all, my game has just been ruined so it's only fair that theirs is too.

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57 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Stop bullsh*ting m8, you can't fire guns that aren't pointed EXACTLY where you are looking to

 

So unless you have a replay to prove me wrong - stop lying about your, most likely deliberate, teamkilling attempt. You got what you deserved

 

 

 

Umm, ever heard of the freecam? 

You know, hold rmb and look around while guns remain fixed? 

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22 minutes ago, That_Other_Nid said:

Such situations are so rare that no change is required. The system is there to eliminate douchenozzles from games quickly and it works as advertised. I would be fine with the damage multiplier being greater than it is currently. I go pink every few hundred games from stray torpedos but that is the sum of my team damage, beyond swapping paint. 

 

It's also perfectly normal to let the fire burn or flooding continue to maximise the punishment of the person who damaged your ship. I know I do. After all, my game has just been ruined so it's only fair that theirs is too.

Friendly fire is invariably a punishment for those on the receiving end. Obviously, the game's systems can't differentiate between accidental friendly fire and people who intentionally attack their teammates, so punishment is applied arbitrarily. I personally feel no gratification knowing a destroyer has been punished for friendly fire after I accidentally wandered into his torpedo spread.

 

What I'm saying, is there's no precedent in terms of game experience for such an interaction as I experienced to occur. I didn't want to set my ally on fire, he certainly didn't want to be set on fire by me. To punish such an accident by destroying a ship doesn't improve anybody's game. The severity of my punishment was due to the game's system being set up to deter intentional friendly fire, which was applied incorrectly in this instance. If you repeatedly shoot, torpedo or ram friendly ships, it's probably because you're doing it intentionally, if not, you could still expect an appropriate punishment for that degree of negligence. This being the outcome of a single misfire, I believe is a flaw in the system.

 

I'm highlighting this incident to demonstrate that aspect of the 'Allied Damage' deterrence.

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2 hours ago, Jhammo52 said:

Now, the 'Allied Damage' system works exponentially, delivering increasingly serious punishments the more you damage your friends. Unfortunately for me, there was nothing I could do to stop the fire aboard the friendly BB. About 8 seconds elapsed between me accidentally laying into the allied battleship with comparatively weak HE rounds, to the game's 'Allied Damage' system becoming so upset with the fire I'd started that it decided to extinguish me from the game completely.

It's a known - and for some reason not acknowledged as a problem afaik - f*ck-up of the system. Basically, the problem stems from a very sound concept:

When you hit someone with 10th salvo it can hardly be considered a coincidence, you're clearly doing it on purpose - so you should be punished accordingly for deliberately and persistently attacking your teammate

 

Only there's a slight problem. DOT, for some reason, isn't treated as part of the attack that inflicted it (whether it's fire or flooding) - every single tick is counted separately. As a result, the abovementioned premise mutates into the ridiculous

When you have your fire raging on your ally for 10 ticks, it can hardly be considered a coincidence, you're clearly doing it on purpose - so you should be punished accordingly for deliberately and persistently attacking your teammate

 

This, of course, makes no sense whatsoever - you have no control over "your" flooding or fire, it's just (postponed and preventable with repair) part of the damage inflicted by your initial torp/shell. In fact, the game acknowledges it in case of achievements - you can still get a Devastating Strike if your target dies to flooding. Why the same way they calculate this wasn't applied to DOT damage from friendly fire? Who knows...

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1 hour ago, piritskenyer said:

 

Umm, ever heard of the freecam? 

You know, hold rmb and look around while guns remain fixed? 

That thing that throws the point where you aim at around your ship by 180°?

 

Even if so - 100% OPs fault for firing guns without knowing there's nothing in front of him. Free look even slightly increases the "distance" you are from your ship (even at max zoom), so he still should have seen the allied ship there.

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58 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

That thing that throws the point where you aim at around your ship by 180°?

 

Even if so - 100% OPs fault for firing guns without knowing there's nothing in front of him. Free look even slightly increases the "distance" you are from your ship (even at max zoom), so he still should have seen the allied ship there.

 

He's not denied in any way that it's his fault, he admitted it in the original post. You're just attacking him for your own personal gratification.

 

He was just uninformed why the reflected damage was so high, now he knows.

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I think that it's useful in 2 ways:

 

a) you have a non-deliberate TKer who accidentally sets you on fire or flood you. However said non-deliberate TKer is unapologetic or does not even know that what he did is wrong. Said non-deliberate TKer can :etc_swear: and sink then for all I care since they don't give an arse about others in the first place;

 

b) you have a deliberate TKer and it helps to get this scum out of the particular game faster so why not?

 

Was playing a Midway game pink and working off the penalty (see we all make mistakes, just have to live with it:Smile_teethhappy:) when friendly Hipper just started torping me in spawn. Received a few torp hits and just let myself flood and let him take damage. He first turned pink and then die as a result of the reflected damage. And he did all that just because I was pink and said he would be happy to do it again :Smile_smile: Luckily I didn't die or I'll probably get reported for not providing the team air cover :Smile_smile: But I digress. So you see in this situation that fits b), it helps everyone with one less scum.

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5 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Stop bullsh*ting m8, you can't fire guns that aren't pointed EXACTLY where you are looking to

 

So unless you have a replay to prove me wrong - stop lying about your, most likely deliberate, teamkilling attempt. You got what you deserved

 

 

yes he can, because of turret transverse speed and you can shoot your guns when they are locked with CTRL+X.

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4 hours ago, eliastion said:

This, of course, makes no sense whatsoever - you have no control over "your" flooding or fire, it's just (postponed and preventable with repair) part of the damage inflicted by your initial torp/shell. In fact, the game acknowledges it in case of achievements - you can still get a Devastating Strike if your target dies to flooding. Why the same way they calculate this wasn't applied to DOT damage from friendly fire? Who knows...

Well, it should count as a single attack. But to be completely fair, if you force a damage control on an ally by setting them on fire (or flooding), any damage that ally takes from DoT attacks until the damage control has reset so it can be used again should also be included in the damage you inflicted.

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In OPs defense, I do think that system could be tweaked. Here is what happened to me - tell me that is my fault.

 

I am in Kutuzov, my smoke,  full health - focusing and burning Missouri at 15k - as  Kutuzovs do ;). Probably about 5 minutes in game and have 45K damage so far.  I am in artillery view, and as I fire, Duke of York sails right  in front of me in my smoke and takes a salvo from me. Sets him on fire.

 

He can't repair as he used his repair, actually admits that it was his mistake - but I go from full health to 0 in about 20 seconds. And get a bright new pink paint job for a number of games. 

 

You could argue that I should have expected someone to pull in front of me, but that is a bit of a stretch - you just don't always expect people to do stupid things. Specially as you are focusing to take out someone else. I would say, my fault maybe 20%, his 80%. But this shouldn't kill me - as he survived with about half health. We probably lost because I was taken out of battle as it was a very close game. 

 

Do you really think that it is "working as it should"?

 

P.S. I never EVER torp from second line, in case you wonder - for that there is no excuse.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Zen71_sniper said:

You could argue that I should have expected someone to pull in front of me, but that is a bit of a stretch - you just don't always expect people to do stupid things.

I'm sorry, what game are you playing???

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1 minute ago, That_Other_Nid said:

I'm sorry, what game are you playing???

You have a point..... 

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Just make it so that allied ordinance is incapable of setting fires or causing flooding.

With that you actually have to try to tk for the system to punish you, while true accidents are left off the hook.

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Working as intended. When an ally shoots me and sets me on fire, I often let it burn out. As this forum thread shows, it is a great way to make people think twice before doing it again :)

 

The bit of your story that doesn't ring true, is that you didn't realise your right mouse button was down when you fired with the left mouse button. For one, your view changes - especially if you were in sniper view, as you should have been given the distance of the nearest enemy from your location on the map.

 

As others have said, let's see the replay.

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2 hours ago, Zen71_sniper said:

You could argue that I should have expected someone to pull in front of me, but that is a bit of a stretch - you just don't always expect people to do stupid things. Specially as you are focusing to take out someone else. I would say, my fault maybe 20%, his 80%. But this shouldn't kill me - as he survived with about half health. We probably lost because I was taken out of battle as it was a very close game.

I would argue you shouldn't have expected someone to pull in front of you, but you should also keep track enough that it doesn't happen. That's why you never sit in artillery mode more than a few seconds at a time unless you have cleared your surroundings. His mistake was that he pulled in front of someone shooting (which is always a bad idea and poor teamplay). Your mistake was that you didn't notice and fired anyway. That's always 100% on you, even if the other guy's an idiot. Mistakes always happens eventually, though, so nothing major. I've done the same (Farragut rammed my Myoko just as I fired). It was extremely hectic, so I don't think he even noticed until the result screen, if that.

 

16 minutes ago, TigerMoth said:

The bit of your story that doesn't ring true, is that you didn't realise your right mouse button was down when you fired with the left mouse button. For one, your view changes - especially if you were in sniper view, as you should have been given the distance of the nearest enemy from your location on the map.

I sometimes aim, right click, and fire a while after. Or continuously. Been watching Flambass a bit, and he often right clicks to zoom out just before he fires his guns. People have different habits.

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3 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

 

I sometimes aim, right click, and fire a while after. Or continuously. Been watching Flambass a bit, and he often right clicks to zoom out just before he fires his guns. People have different habits.

Yes, I do, too (as do many people), but that is because your guns are pointing at the enemy and you don't want to move them. His story doesn't match this scenario.

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