cheat possible in cyclone?

[BIG6969]

Just had a game where I was in cyclone engaging a BB, who is the only ship that is within 8km of the visible range. But a Hindenburg who I cannot spot, because he is outside of the 8km range, kept shooting me and hit me on target. You could tell it was not something ordinary because all shells hit as if I was spotted. There was no radar or hydo and Hindenburg hydro has a range of 6km anyway. 

 

Got the reply but don't know where to upload it. 

[Tyrendian89]

hard to say without a replay... but it's not like it's impossible to hit a target just because you can't see it. Most likely he just kept aiming at where he saw his shells connect - especially if you were stationary on an island or similar (no idea, since no replay^^). I've done it a couple of times myself. Not easy, but possible.

[Strapps]

15 minutes ago, operationalpha said:

Got the reply but don't know where to upload it. 

 

I use this site - WoWs replays.

[WashedandDeceased]

Wasn't there some bug with planes ignoring cyclone limitations? Did they fix that? 

[wilkatis_LV]

29 minutes ago, operationalpha said:

Got the reply but don't know where to upload it. 

You can just drop it here, or as already mentioned upload to WoWS Replays

 

 

With a 99% certainty I can tell you that that guy is using "X marks the spot" mod - a 100% legal mod, included in Aslains modpack (quite possibly WG modpack aswell), that WG sees no problem with and claim that it gives no advantage whatsoever to the player that has it compared to one without it.

 

As someone who has that mod installed - in a cyclone I keep my distance around 9 to 13 km from the enemy who's spotted unless I really have to close in or get caught, and with a little bit of practice I've got the hang of aiming on my minimap, which leads to me reasonably reliably for such a situation (usually 1...3 shells per salvo, altho there always are bunch of 0 hit misses due to dispersion penalty on "not selected" target, at least as a BB) hitting the target which isn't even seen.

 

12 minutes ago, Freyr_90 said:

Wasn't there some bug with planes ignoring cyclone limitations? Did they fix that? 

"Sadly" enough the spotter plane bug which allowed you to see normally in cyclone is fixed with the 0.7.2.1 (yes, I checked it )

[BIG6969]

https://replayswows.com/replay/19339#teams

[BIG6969]

I just uploaded it. 

[Commander_Cornflakes]

Ok, saw whats happening.

First: the salvos where aimed pretty bad, so he definitely didn't really see you. A cheat is therefore highly unlikely, especially since a cheat like this would be impossible.

What wilkatis said is probably right, the Mod is legal, though some players do consider it a cheat. Or that player really just aimed at your position at the minimap which is possible too.

[wilkatis_LV]

28 minutes ago, operationalpha said:

https://replayswows.com/replay/19339#teams

His shots are going high, since you aren't turning I'll conclude that it's not "X marks the spot" (that would give him correct "height", he'd just need to adjust the horizontal lead

 

But note where he's hitting you - stern. What's happening to your stern at that exact same time? Republics secondaries are hitting it. You can still see explosions even if you don't see the ship itself - and that's what he was aiming by / for.

[BIG6969]

Thanks for the response. Surprised to find there are so many gimmicks that still exist...  

[elblancogringo]

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

With a 99% certainty I can tell you that that guy is using "X marks the spot" mod - a 100% legal mod, included in Aslains modpack (quite possibly WG modpack aswell), that WG sees no problem with and claim that it gives no advantage whatsoever to the player that has it compared to one without it.

 

As someone who has that mod installed - in a cyclone I keep my distance around 9 to 13 km from the enemy who's spotted unless I really have to close in or get caught, and with a little bit of practice I've got the hang of aiming on my minimap, which leads to me reasonably reliably for such a situation (usually 1...3 shells per salvo, altho there always are bunch of 0 hit misses due to dispersion penalty on "not selected" target, at least as a BB) hitting the target which isn't even seen.

 

"Sadly" enough the spotter plane bug which allowed you to see normally in cyclone is fixed with the 0.7.2.1 (yes, I checked it )

 

I never use mods and I find this one really unfair.

Is there any chance that wargaming bans this one?

[BeauNidl3]

7 minutes ago, elblancogringo said:

 

I never use mods and I find this one really unfair.

Is there any chance that wargaming bans this one?

 

Unlikely as it's in the "official" modpack.

 

It takes some skill to use well.

[13Ninjas]

Watched the replay, I didn't see any cheating.

[eliastion]

1 hour ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

especially since a cheat like this would be impossible.

Actually, this one might be possible. Normally getting unspotted ships' positions would require hacking into server (not very realistic) to send you this data in the first place. Here, however, the situation is different. Your minimap displays the position of enemy ship - it might (or might not) be less precise than what your client gets for ships that should be rendered BUT there is SOMETHING, some data from server, to go by. Creating a mod rendering such "ghost ships" hardly sounds like something impossible. Tricky, perhaps. Definitely illegal. But not impossible.

[wilkatis_LV]

57 minutes ago, elblancogringo said:

I never use mods and I find this one really unfair.

Is there any chance that wargaming bans this one?

They see it as perfectly legal and that it "gives no advantage". I've given quite a few examples of how ridiculous it is, the only answers always are "well that's just one time luck" "you can do that with a spotter plane" "you can guess that without the X aswell" and so on.

 

So no, there's no ban incoming for it. And I'm not going to deny myself the obvious advantage it gives.

 

1 hour ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

especially since a cheat like this would be impossible.

26 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Actually, this one might be possible. Normally getting unspotted ships' positions would require hacking into server (not very realistic) to send you this data in the first place. Here, however, the situation is different. Your minimap displays the position of enemy ship - it might (or might not) be less precise than what your client gets for ships that should be rendered BUT there is SOMETHING, some data from server, to go by. Creating a mod rendering such "ghost ships" hardly sounds like something impossible. Tricky, perhaps. Definitely illegal. But not impossible.

 

Take the spotter plane bug we had at the start of this patch as a perfect example of it - if you had a spotter plane in the air you could see everyone normally, while a ship next to you without a spotter plane would still be limited to the same 8km. Game had no problem giving the spotter planes owner all the info he "requested" from it.

Same goes with a radar - if your radar range goes past cyclones 8km you still can see them, but only you not your ally right next to you. Again - game has no problem giving you this information.

 

So yes, as rare as cyclones tend to be so as limited as the use for that would be - this most definitely would be one of the more plausible cheats / hacks / exploits / whatever

[AnotherDuck]

+1 to OP for being reasonable in the discussion. Far too many claims it's absolutely a cheat rather than ask about it (which is a fair question if you're not familiar with all game mechanics), and then turn indignant when told they're just being outplayed.

 

Battleships aren't that hard to hit blind, especially compared to other ships. I didn't check the replay, but hitting a few shells isn't out of the ordinary. Most people don't try, but the ones who do usually know what they're doing. I've done it a few times (mostly in Yorck and Mogami that I can remember, for some reason), and a few times with torpedoes.

 

Like others, I also wouldn't assume a cheat unless the accuracy is too high. But even then, after one or two salvos you can usually be more accurate.

 

The X mod should be banned IMO, but as long as it isn't, I'll use it. Besides, it comes with the minimap mod I use (mostly for transparent circles rather than dotted lines; I find them easier to look at), so I've not even chosen it specifically.

[Asakka]

13 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

You can still see explosions even if you don't see the ship itself - and that's what he was aiming by / for.

This

[BIG6969]

I dont think X marks the spot is still available in the mod pack? or is it? 

[wilkatis_LV]

1 hour ago, operationalpha said:

I dont think X marks the spot is still available in the mod pack? or is it? 

It is, at least in Aslains (never used WG modpack, but I'd guess it's there too). Both WG & Aslains modpacks are confirmed as legal / approved.

[BrummBaerTiger]

19 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

I'm not going to deny myself the obvious advantage it gives.

[BrummBaerTiger]

Ok, don't know why I couldn't comment the quote in the same reply but what wilkatis_LV said is a short and simple definition for a "cheat". A mod is supposed to change existing options in a client, not to add new information or even an advantage in any kind - ever!

[wilkatis_LV]

1 hour ago, BrummBaerTiger said:

Ok, don't know why I couldn't comment the quote in the same reply but what wilkatis_LV said is a short and simple definition for a "cheat". A mod is supposed to change existing options in a client, not to add new information or even an advantage in any kind - ever!

To the general playerbase (at least the ones hanging around here in the forums) it's known as a mod that should have been forbidden. It's the WG that doesn't see it that way

[Tungstonid]

Mods in WoWS can only work with what the server gives to the client, they can't request/retrieve new information from the server which the client otherwise would not get.

Therefore I think implementing a real cheat which gives ship positions during a cyclone is not possible unless the client gets the information anyway. But then it would also work without a cyclone for ships out of viewing/render distance or could even be used to circumvent the deliberate delay between ships showing on the mini map and them rendering.

I at least haven't heard about that yet.

[wilkatis_LV]

1 hour ago, Tungstonid said:

Therefore I think implementing a real cheat which gives ship positions during a cyclone is not possible unless the client gets the information anyway.

You get the info on your minimap.

 

If you have radar you get the info at a further distance than anyone else.

 

And as the spotter plane bug showed - if you "politely" ask for it, the game doesn't mind showing you where those ships are, even if noone else sees it. Noone but you

 

 

So I do believe your client already gets all that info, just that the game has been "instructed" not to share it with you. Lets just hope that instruction is protected well enough and noone gets around it...

[eliastion]

3 hours ago, Tungstonid said:

Mods in WoWS can only work with what the server gives to the client, they can't request/retrieve new information from the server which the client otherwise would not get.

Therefore I think implementing a real cheat which gives ship positions during a cyclone is not possible unless the client gets the information anyway. But then it would also work without a cyclone for ships out of viewing/render distance or could even be used to circumvent the deliberate delay between ships showing on the mini map and them rendering.

I at least haven't heard about that yet.

That's the point - the client DOES get the info - or at least some info, enough to show the ships on your minimap. These ship outlines for ships spotted but beyond your render range - your client knows where they are.