Extra consumable for Yamato, and maybe Montana

[KarmaQU_EU]

With the introduction of new BBs, the two oldest T10 BBs, Yamato and Montana, could probably use a review.

 

G.K. has hydro, French have speed-boost, and British have super-heal. They also all have better turret turn-rates than Yamato and Montana, and can thus skip Expert Marksman, giving them a 2-skillpoint advantage over Yamato/Montanas.

Furthermore, G.K. and the République have great secondary guns by default, with also great armour. Before them, Yamato was the default close-range brawler, but now it pales in comparison to the more desired combos of citadel armour + secondaries of G.K., and just Op + longer range secondaries of the French, paired with good turret reload speed and turn-rate. They all also have better maneuverability than Yamato. While I know Yamato is supposed to have the "largest caliber turrets, with best accuracy", Montana still had its citadel lowered with changes, while the Yamato got no love. And Montana at least has best AA, Yamato, no AA whatsoever.

 

Thus, Yamato could use a major addition of something beneficial, while Montana could use a review and some slight changes as well, especially in light of its supposed AA-expert/cruiser-hunter role being taken by other ships with decent AA as well.

 

I propose Yamato gain an extra consumable, while Montana should be prepared to be more fitting as the support-BB role (if such a thing is possible), and its AA revised especially in consideration to post-CV rework meta.

The consumable Yamato could gain should likely reflect its desired role of hard-tank anti-BB vanguard. And in light of its secondaries being dwarfed by the newer ships, I imagine this consumable should be something that is new, and applies its effects to its secondaries.

 

Possible buff directions:

firing speed, 

accuracy, 

default penetration,

extra damage to modules,

extra damage to light armour,

repair/revive damaged secondaries upon activation,

barraged fire,

or "preferential" aiming; at the weak armour near top of ships, a bit further ahead to hit fast ships, or better tracking of turning targets

no need for manual aiming even for "manual fire control", a semi-passive

all AA guns will also attempt to hose the target, temporarily acting as secondaries, dealing trickling damage, while also suppressing secondaries of target

or just reducing secondary performance of target under fire, most likely the opponent who is also firing at Yamato with secondaries

 

Possible tradeoffs / interesting modifiers:

temporarily reduced range/halved range

a "cooldown phase" where secondaries are temporarily disabled when consumable runs out

reduced/zeroed fire chance

inability to switch targets/requires a new "ranging time" upon switching targets while the consumable is active

 

Thus, any possible combination of the above buffs/tradeoffs could work to become a new "secondary barrage" consumable for Yamato, inciting it and rewarding it for brawling within secondary range. The exact details I leave to WG to balance and consider.

 

As for Montana:

A possibility is that it gains a single-charged "AA barrage", even as a BB. However, there will also have to be tradeoffs. Think perhaps a single use, like Yubari. Or that it disables manual AA targeting, spreading its damage, and randomly switches between targets it is damaging, so no more A.I. default priority targeting of TB>DB>F. So like cruiser AA barrage, but is AOE instead of single target. 

 

If I am accused of hard-favouring BBs, instead of say, Cruisers, or DDs, my past writings have dealt with many possible ways they can be buffed, for instance, cruisers gaining better consumable CD by default, cruisers less fire slots / BB more total fire slots, while DDs get protected by "blackened hull" more.

 

Edit: I'm also aware some of these changes may push Yamato and Montana a bit over the "op" side, so some stats balancing may also have to happen. But the core argument is still that they have no special gimmicks/consumables, while the newer ships do.

 

Thank you for reading.

[salva_barbus]

Disclaimer: I'm a potato, so take any and all arguments contained here with a healthy dose of salt.

 

I'm argue against this. The Yamato has the absurdly powerful guns that can punch though almost anything and are accurate to boot. The Montana has been, is and probably will continue to be the competitive TierX BB of choice due to an absurdly heavy broadside that is painfully accurate. In the correct hands, it can delete almost anything if it even shows itself.

 

If anything, I'd say the only thing to do is make all other BBs have a reliable-to-hit citadel

[ShinGetsu]

I disagree.

Simply put : despites everything you said (and some are very true), the US and the IJN BBs line are still the top picks in competitive both at tier 8 and tier 10. They are fast enough, armored enough, with great firepower, and balanced concealment.

And they both have their own gimmick actually : the 11% dispersion mod for the US (+ the AA), and the lolpen+ base accuracy for the IJN. Both NC and Amagi are the top tier VIII BBs for ranked and competitive, and both Yamato and Montana are the standards choice for the BB in CBs. And it's not like they are lagging behind in stats either. I bloody love my Montana to bits, that ship is so satisfying to play.

[wilkatis_LV]

40 minutes ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

With the introduction of new BBs, the two oldest T10 BBs, Yamato and Montana, could probably use a review.

 

G.K. has hydro, French have speed-boost, and British have super-heal.

Montana has superheavy AP and high "this goes over mountains" arcs, Yamato has her overmatch. Both of them have their pretty good accuracy. Monty has her AA. Plenty of strongpoints these ships have

 

40 minutes ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Before them, Yamato was the default close-range brawler

With that gun traverse Yamato has never been and will never be a close range brawler. Well, maybe when people knew no better, but that doesn't mean she would have been any good at it.

 

---

 

So... no, they really don't need anything.

[aboomination]

1 hour ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Before them, Yamato was the default close-range brawler,

Nah, Monty was the brawler. With her lowered citadel she can still do that job. Yamato never was great at brawling. In fact, her play style didn't really change at all over the years.

[elblancogringo]

I totally disagree. There is no need to add some gimmick to both Monty and Yami. They are performing very well in good players hands thanks to their specific characteristics and good accuracy.

[Jethro_Grey]

I fully support OPs suggestion!

 

Yamato and Montana should get a consumable that is permanently active and prints a message at the screen in intervals of 5 seconds, and the message reads:

 

'Stop camping, you are out of position! Pls support your team! Don't be a p***y! You can't aim for *hit, pls get closer! Tanking for your team gives rewards as well...and you might win more often...just saying...you p***y!

 

When i think about it, this should be a perma consumable for every BB.

Apart from that, i don't believe that Montana needs anything.

[Panocek]

Both of the old guard battleboats are more than fine. Yamato is ultimate anti BB battleship with tough armor when positioned well, Montana excels at removing everything around Yamato or other hightier BB and then she can proceed to abuse some broadsides with her massive salvo.

[KarmaQU_EU]

Nice, for once people offer insightful and constructive input.

[Lieut_Gruber]

Yamato used to have a superheal like conq has, but they removed it because it was too op. Now on Conq, with its underwater citadel, its balanced.

[wilkatis_LV]

32 minutes ago, Lieut_Gruber said:

Yamato used to have a superheal like conq has, but they removed it because it was too op. Now on Conq, with its underwater citadel, its balanced.

Difference is in the armour and HP pool. One of the reasons why French having normal heal with armour scheme like RN is pretty questionable

[Klimons]

BBs in general are too good. A better solution would be to nerf GK and Conq, and maybe change citadel of Montana a little bit, not to the level it was before but still.

[Tungstonid]

3 hours ago, salva_barbus said:

Disclaimer: I'm a potato, so take any and all arguments contained here with a healthy dose of salt.

 

I'm argue against this. The Yamato has the absurdly powerful guns that can punch though almost anything and are accurate to boot. The Montana has been, is and probably will continue to be the competitive TierX BB of choice due to an absurdly heavy broadside that is painfully accurate. In the correct hands, it can delete almost anything if it even shows itself.

 

If anything, I'd say the only thing to do is make all other BBs have a reliable-to-hit citadel

While the guns of the Yamato are powerful, more often than not they are too powerful and give more overpens than lower calibre BB guns do. It also has only 3/4 of the firepower compared to other BBs (besides the large baguette) and you have to be very careful to use the 3rd turret because Yamato is the easiest to citadel BB on tier X...

 

 

3 hours ago, ShinGetsu said:

I disagree.

Simply put : despites everything you said (and some are very true), the US and the IJN BBs line are still the top picks in competitive both at tier 8 and tier 10. They are fast enough, armored enough, with great firepower, and balanced concealment.

And they both have their own gimmick actually : the 11% dispersion mod for the US (+ the AA), and the lolpen+ base accuracy for the IJN. Both NC and Amagi are the top tier VIII BBs for ranked and competitive, and both Yamato and Montana are the standards choice for the BB in CBs. And it's not like they are lagging behind in stats either. I bloody love my Montana to bits, that ship is so satisfying to play.

Are you sure Yamato and Montana are the top picks for competitive play? I thought they (or at least the Yamato) were replaced by the Conqueror.

In fact, a while back someone made a comment about how Yamato is rather good in an anti-BB role while Montana is a good all around BB and since you have mostly CAs in CBs...

 

 

3 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

With that gun traverse Yamato has never been and will never be a close range brawler. Well, maybe when people knew no better, but that doesn't mean she would have been any good at it.

Before the addition of the German BB line and if you wanted to play a tier X BB with secondary build, the Yamato was your only choice because Montana lacked and lacks sufficient range.

[_ramrus_]

Karma take a break from the game, you will soon be spent if you keep this up.

Your sanity and well being is more important than some game.

[lup3s]

Yamato could get her old heal back

[Capra76]

29 minutes ago, Klimons said:

BBs in general are too good. A better solution would be to nerf GK and Conq, and maybe change citadel of Montana a little bit, not to the level it was before but still.

 

The problem is that with Tirpitz and Missouri present in such large numbers the whole T8-10 BB balance has to be set off those ships, so you can't nerf and BB without either making the two premiums OP, and you can't nerf T10 BB as a group without making them too weak relative to T8/9, thus removing any point in playing them.

[RepSrb]

yesss , i was saying that long ago in my topic , yamo needs some help to stay competitive , its weakest bb now which is sad,.... i vote for shinkasen shells , aim at enemy aircraft squadron with main guns and delete them - that could be its special skill.

[El2aZeR]

Yamato and Monty are fine. If anything the other BBs need to have their gimmicks taken away.

[WolfGewehr]

Quote

Yamato needs buffs/tweaks/whatever to stay competitive with other BBs

 

 

What if, instead of buffing the Queen, nerf/tweak the other BBs a bit? I.e. to not answer to powercreep with powercreep but tune down the newcomers

 

Imo Yama is fine, powerful if used right but demanding. Overall Yama and NC are good BBs; they reward good positioning and aim with their consistent guns, but punish if you position badly. Also Yama's turret traverse is a good way to keep her power in bay; if you see her guns pointing the other way, you can make the risk play as she won't turn her turrets like a cruiser.

[Capra76]

28 minutes ago, WolfGewehr said:

What if, instead of buffing the Queen, nerf/tweak the other BBs a bit? I.e. to not answer to powercreep with powercreep but tune down the newcomers

 

Have they really been powercrept? 

 

They all have WR% within about 1% of each other and the pattern isn't even consistent, Monty is the weakest on the NA server but the strongest on the EU, GK is strongest on NA but pretty average on EU, the differences that are there could easily be explained by differences in the players.

 

To put things into context, there's far more difference between top and bottom performing DD at T10.

[WolfGewehr]

1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

Have they really been powercrept?

 

Well true, powercreep might not be the best word in this case. I mostly expressed my personal dislike towards WG's usual style that they rather buff old lines instead of nerfing the new ones. Sure that is one way to do it. A matter of taste I guess.

 

[ghostbuster_]

9 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

With the introduction of new BBs, the two oldest T10 BBs, Yamato and Montana, could probably use a review.

 

G.K. has hydro, French have speed-boost, and British have super-heal. They also all have better turret turn-rates than Yamato and Montana, and can thus skip Expert Marksman, giving them a 2-skillpoint advantage over Yamato/Montanas.

Furthermore, G.K. and the République have great secondary guns by default, with also great armour. Before them, Yamato was the default close-range brawler, but now it pales in comparison to the more desired combos of citadel armour + secondaries of G.K., and just Op + longer range secondaries of the French, paired with good turret reload speed and turn-rate. They all also have better maneuverability than Yamato. While I know Yamato is supposed to have the "largest caliber turrets, with best accuracy", Montana still had its citadel lowered with changes, while the Yamato got no love. And Montana at least has best AA, Yamato, no AA whatsoever.

 

Thus, Yamato could use a major addition of something beneficial, while Montana could use a review and some slight changes as well, especially in light of its supposed AA-expert/cruiser-hunter role being taken by other ships with decent AA as well.

 

I propose Yamato gain an extra consumable, while Montana should be prepared to be more fitting as the support-BB role (if such a thing is possible), and its AA revised especially in consideration to post-CV rework meta.

The consumable Yamato could gain should likely reflect its desired role of hard-tank anti-BB vanguard. And in light of its secondaries being dwarfed by the newer ships, I imagine this consumable should be something that is new, and applies its effects to its secondaries.

 

Possible buff directions:

firing speed, 

accuracy, 

default penetration,

extra damage to modules,

extra damage to light armour,

repair/revive damaged secondaries upon activation,

barraged fire,

or "preferential" aiming; at the weak armour near top of ships, a bit further ahead to hit fast ships, or better tracking of turning targets

no need for manual aiming even for "manual fire control", a semi-passive

all AA guns will also attempt to hose the target, temporarily acting as secondaries, dealing trickling damage, while also suppressing secondaries of target

or just reducing secondary performance of target under fire, most likely the opponent who is also firing at Yamato with secondaries

 

Possible tradeoffs / interesting modifiers:

temporarily reduced range/halved range

a "cooldown phase" where secondaries are temporarily disabled when consumable runs out

reduced/zeroed fire chance

inability to switch targets/requires a new "ranging time" upon switching targets while the consumable is active

 

Thus, any possible combination of the above buffs/tradeoffs could work to become a new "secondary barrage" consumable for Yamato, inciting it and rewarding it for brawling within secondary range. The exact details I leave to WG to balance and consider.

 

As for Montana:

A possibility is that it gains a single-charged "AA barrage", even as a BB. However, there will also have to be tradeoffs. Think perhaps a single use, like Yubari. Or that it disables manual AA targeting, spreading its damage, and randomly switches between targets it is damaging, so no more A.I. default priority targeting of TB>DB>F. So like cruiser AA barrage, but is AOE instead of single target. 

 

If I am accused of hard-favouring BBs, instead of say, Cruisers, or DDs, my past writings have dealt with many possible ways they can be buffed, for instance, cruisers gaining better consumable CD by default, cruisers less fire slots / BB more total fire slots, while DDs get protected by "blackened hull" more.

 

Edit: I'm also aware some of these changes may push Yamato and Montana a bit over the "op" side, so some stats balancing may also have to happen. But the core argument is still that they have no special gimmicks/consumables, while the newer ships do.

 

Thank you for reading.

Yamatos gimmick: biggest guns which can pen anything. She doesn't need anything more

[KarmaQU_EU]

So there were some good arguments about whether Yamato's guns are still powerful enough to warrant special status, while comments about Monty's gun arcs were also brought up ...

I suppose the equivalent argument would be that the "Conqueror" has no special consumable, but only special "guns", and a unique defensive scheme. Thus in that comparison, nothing new is necessary for Yamato and Monty, given that despite their useless catapult fighter, they still, at least have the catapult fighter.

 

So the next phase of the argument is whether the new ships, with their special gimmicks and pronounced specialties, are more fun to play than some of these old guard BBs. For instance, all the new BBs, G.K, Ré, Conq, have at least 2 "directions" of specialty ... the special secondaries for the first 2, and Stealth + HE for the third. This means they allow for an almost alternate playstyle, or a "secondary" strength to fall back upon, offering more flexibility of play, and more "fun".

This is further enhanced by the fact that they gain 2 extra skillpoints equivalent because of not needing expert marksman, thus offering, in short, "more possibilities" in skill-choosing as well, despite only a minor addition.

 

And as I always say, possibility is joy.

 

While it can be argued that if the new BBs have "1.5 + 1.5 = 3" balanced but spread-out strengths, then the Yamato would still have the equivalent of "2 + 1 = 3" strengths, with more strengths concentrated into a single feature, for instance the powerful guns, and a bit into the angled tankiness. But that still means it can be hard-countered if facing multiple/flanking opponents, lessening the "2" strength equivalent of its low-turnrate guns, and utterly crushing its achilles heeled "1" armour. The result, is not "fun". However, for the other BBs, they can fall back to their fast-rotation, average performance guns/higher reload/HE compatible guns, while using also good enough armour even while suppressed/flanked, and sometimes better maneuverability, to still perform under "counter" situations, or at least, offer freedom of choice in what line of action to take.

 

To some extents the "diminished 3 effect" applies same with Monty, its guns are good enough, its armour good enough, but if there is no planes for its AA to shine, then it just becomes another 12-gunned BB with no special strengths except all-round average "support" performance. It has in fact been overtaken by G.K. in my clan's clan wars, due to that fact. And is probably not as fun to play as the G.K., either. which, reminiscent of the old Nagato being very power at its tier, can be summarized as "goes where it pleases, kills who it pleases, and lives". The same cannot be said of Montana.

 

Thus, the new phase of the argument is that while both "1.5+1.5=3", and "2+1=3", the "3"s here are not the same. And that is the problem with some of the new "gimmick" BBs versus the old ones, with the Montana taking central spotlight in this phase of the argument instead of Yamato, as it is "1+1+1=3", with that 3 becoming a 2 if there are no planes.

 

Now, for this phase, the BB bias is also much more pronounced ... we don't see people saying "but the new cruisers have more gimmicks than the old ones", or "the old cruisers are too situational/not fun enough", because the cruisers are actually more balanced, and less gimmicky and op in general ... as no matter how gimmicky, they are still subject to the metas of the game, and no matter how op, they are no more op than the BBs, which can manual-secondary hose-them-down from 12 km while focusing a totally different target with their guns, all the while shrugging off their shattering cruiser HE against their troll armour, and healing back what damage they did painstakingly do. And while angling on cruisers work too, it is much less an effect, for its effort, than what a BB gains by simply angling. In short, this phase of the argument also partially shows how OP BBs are, with or without their gimmicks, but especially with their gimmicks. This is also reflected in their popularity as of late, and the need to limit them in clan wars. And thus as reflected in this, BBs, especially the new ones, are more "fun", more relaxing to play, and more popular.

 

So how to raise the "fun"-ness, of not just the old BBs compared to the new ones, but other ships in general compared to BBs, and especially the other ships, is the question. But a much more complex and difficult question. Because while we can argue all the while how "Op" Khab is, it will still suffer the same sudden death if it rounded a corner and had to trade torps with a Shimakaze. While the BBs can just sit in the back, and watch the DDs duke it out for their life's worth. They are doing their duty, and dying so, while the BBs get to be comfy armchair duelists.

 

Git at it. Keep the good posts coming.

 

Thank you for reading.

[wilkatis_LV]

6 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

their useless catapult fighter

Use. Catapult. Spotter.

 

If you discount "everyone has these" consumables like Heal & Repair - spotter plane is the best one that's left. Hell, remove the range increase and it's still the best one.

 

Enemy smoke? no problems aiming at that. Island between you and the enemy? No problems seeing over and aiming behind that.

 

Combine with one of the static crosshairs that give you extra angled lines and aiming against angled targets becomes even easier.

 

And Floatplane Spotter is the only aircraft in the game with vision range of 15km instead of the normal 11km for all your BB spotting needs.

 

Never run fighter, it's beyond useless. Always run spotter.

 

6 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

more fun to play

That's a subjective oppinion, you know. For me no ship is more fun than the Amagi.

RN BBs are pretty fun only at tier 7, 9 and 10 (and even then that 7 and 10 is questionable). They don't have the armour, and before the Lion they don't even have the heal to make up for it. Tier 7 is simply a tier that's in a great position because of how often it's top tier, but they are terrible against 8s and 9s. Conq is generally so hated that it gets focused down as soon as it's spotted (well, maybe not in case of windowlickers sitting at 20km), while Lion doesn't have nearly as much fame and thus gets left alone.

Germans... My Bismark is fun only bcuz it has secondary build - I can charge something and have a laugh as my ridiculous secondaries are working them over. But that quickly gets old (hence my... uhh, like 60-ish games in the year that I've had that ship? Something like that).

US BBs... great in divisions, especially in divisions with CVs. Fun for hitting enemies when they think they're safe behind an island.

haven't played the French, but bad accuracy and no armour... I don't see much to have fun with

 

6 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

G.K, Ré, Conq, have at least 2 "directions" of specialty ... the special secondaries for the first 2, and Stealth + HE for the third. This means they allow for an almost alternate playstyle, or a "secondary" strength to fall back upon, offering more flexibility of play, and more "fun".

USN - concealment, AA (especially t7+), HE (excellent fire chance), accuracy

IJN - tanking, secondaries (especially on Izumo & Yamato, but all t5+ can get secondaries that are lethal to DDs), HE (dmg generally on par, sometimes above, with RN), accuracy, kiting (mid tiers)

RN - concealment, tanking (at t9 & t10 + Nelson), HE (all 3 stats (pen/dmg/fc) are good)

KM -tanking, secondaries, HE (excellent fire chance, improved pen), taking the initiative and pushing (a.k.a. improved bow armour - at least t8+, if not already before that)

(what's the correct abbreviation for French navy - MN?) - secondaries (at least in high tiers), AA (at least in mid tiers), HE (excellent fire chance)

 

*HE pen on a BB is the most useless HE stat, as you, generally speaking, already have more than enough pen due to your large caliber. Very few armour zones affected by increase in your pen

 

6 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

not needing expert marksman

You're a BB, you kinda need it. Not obligatory on any line, but always a good skill to pick up.

 

6 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Monty (..) just becomes another 12-gunned BB with no special strengths

And you ignore her accuracy once again. Monty is literally the most versatile t10 BB.

 

---

 

All that sounds like you reached Yamato and Montana, got disappointed by the fact that they aren't some god-tier "roflstomp everything by default" ships, saw others plating other BBs, saw something about those BBs, and decided that they then must be better, they must be the godtier "we ze best" ships

[ghostbuster_]

7 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

So there were some good arguments about whether Yamato's guns are still powerful enough to warrant special status, while comments about Monty's gun arcs were also brought up ...

I suppose the equivalent argument would be that the "Conqueror" has no special consumable, 

 

Conqueror DOES have special consumable whichis super heal...  and seriously, BBs are powerfull enough. why would you even ask for more gimmicks? even yamato which is the less retardproof than other BBs is still very strong.