More Battleship citadels - Wargamings "Intriguing Adjustment"

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

The community contributor "Notser" posted a couple of videos on YT about there being more citadel hits on Battleships since 0.7.2 went live.

The first video on March 8th introduced the subject "World of Warships - Intriguing Adjustment" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Z0ddSFTx4)

 

The second video on March 13th "World of Warships - Follow-up Intriguing Adjustment"  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY1UEgJyAfs)  showed a statement from Sub_Octavian which had been received after the first one.

 

Wargaming are saying that they had not intentionally made any changes but they had noticed changes in combat statistics including the number of citadels.

 

Sub_Octavian's reply shown in second video:-

Spoiler

 

Notser's view seems to be that this is neither a nerf nor a buff, since for every Battleship that loses another Battleship gains by this (unintentional) change. Also he feels it rewards good players more, and punishes the bad players who just sail around broadside.

 

What do you think? Should Wargaming "fix" this or leave it as it is?

[Exocet6951]

11 minutes ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

The community contributor "Notser" posted a couple of videos on YT about there being more citadel hits on Battleships since 0.7.2 went live.

The first video on March 8th introduced the subject "World of Warships - Intriguing Adjustment" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Z0ddSFTx4)

 

The second video on March 13th "World of Warships - Follow-up Intriguing Adjustment"  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY1UEgJyAfs)  showed a statement from Sub_Octavian which had been received after the first one.

 

Wargaming are saying that they had not intentionally made any changes but they had noticed changes in combat statistics including the number of citadels.

 

Sub_Octavian's reply shown in second video:-

  Hide contents

 

Notser's view seems to be that this is neither a nerf nor a buff, since for every Battleship that loses another Battleship gains by this (unintentional) change. Also he feels it rewards good players more, and punishes the bad players who just sail around broadside.

 

What do you think? Should Wargaming "fix" this or leave it as it is?

 

Find out what's causing it, then replicate the results in a controlled patch.


Yes to better rewarding good play, and better punishing poor play.

[ClappingLollies]

100% fix. At this very moment you see high tier ships sailing broadside and not getting punished. But players that angle get citadel'd to kingdom come. It seems like everything is way more RNG based now. So every potato and their mother can do just aswell as ppl that have plenty of experience in the game. I cannot citadel the new French BB's in random battles BTW. But if i go into a training room with the exact same angle, exact same point of aim and range i get plenty. Seems fishy WG. VERY. 

[ColonelPete]

15 minutes ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

The community contributor "Notser" posted a couple of videos on YT about there being more citadel hits on Battleships since 0.7.2 went live.

The first video on March 8th introduced the subject "World of Warships - Intriguing Adjustment" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Z0ddSFTx4)

 

The second video on March 13th "World of Warships - Follow-up Intriguing Adjustment"  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY1UEgJyAfs)  showed a statement from Sub_Octavian which had been received after the first one.

 

Wargaming are saying that they had not intentionally made any changes but they had noticed changes in combat statistics including the number of citadels.

 

Sub_Octavian's reply shown in second video:-

  Hide contents

 

Notser's view seems to be that this is neither a nerf nor a buff, since for every Battleship that loses another Battleship gains by this (unintentional) change. Also he feels it rewards good players more, and punishes the bad players who just sail around broadside.

 

What do you think? Should Wargaming "fix" this or leave it as it is?

Do not see a difference.

[piritskenyer]

22 minutes ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

[...] 

What do you think? Should Wargaming "fix" this or leave it as it is?

 

I think there is nothing to fix. This is a global change that affects everyone. 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

1 hour ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

What do you think? Should Wargaming "fix" this or leave it as it is?

If it is a bug, it should be fixed,

[ClappingLollies]

4 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

 

I think there is nothing to fix. This is a global change that affects everyone. 

Global change that gives the player with good RNG the edge. Do not agree with that. There is more than enough RNG in this game already. 

[piritskenyer]

15 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

Global change that gives the player with good RNG the edge. Do not agree with that. There is more than enough RNG in this game already. 

I disagree. If you aim for or under the waterline on underwater cit BB's, your chances to put a cit in is actually now generally higher than before, so in a way less RNG dependent. Before you needed to get lucky (blessed by rngsus) to score cits on some of the BB's. 

[Exocet6951]

23 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

I disagree. If you aim for or under the waterline on underwater cit BB's, your chances to put a cit in is actually now generally higher than before, so in a way less RNG dependent. Before you needed to get lucky (blessed by rngsus) to score cits on some of the BB's. 

 

Agreed.

My last match alone, I saw a broadsiding GK 20km away, took a pot shot, citpen.
Angled NC? Couldn't for the life of me get anything but bounces, overpens and the occasional pen on the superstructure.
Broadside Iowa? Double citpen

It happened to me as well.
I angled properly, and could tank well.
I potatoed and turned towards 3 BBs, and left with half my HP missing, with only maybe a third repairable, meaning I took a citpen or two.


I felt rewarded for good aiming, felt challenged by enemies playing well, and felt that enemies caught out of position were punished more than before.
It was like early 2016 all over again. Magical.

[elblancogringo]

11 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Agreed.

My last match alone, I saw a broadsiding GK 20km away, took a pot shot, citpen.
Angled NC? Couldn't for the life of me get anything but bounces, overpens and the occasional pen on the superstructure.
Broadside Iowa? Double citpen

It happened to me as well.
I angled properly, and could tank well.
I potatoed and turned towards 3 BBs, and left with half my HP missing, with only maybe a third repairable, meaning I took a citpen or two.


I felt rewarded for good aiming, felt challenged by enemies playing well, and felt that enemies caught out of position were punished more than before.
It was like early 2016 all over again. Magical.

I understand and agree with you but apparently not all players feel the same as you:

2 hours ago, MortenTardo said:

100% fix. At this very moment you see high tier ships sailing broadside and not getting punished. But players that angle get citadel'd to kingdom come. It seems like everything is way more RNG based now. So every potato and their mother can do just aswell as ppl that have plenty of experience in the game. I cannot citadel the new French BB's in random battles BTW. But if i go into a training room with the exact same angle, exact same point of aim and range i get plenty. Seems fishy WG. VERY. 

Is it really reliable? Everything depends on this. 

But I'm sure WG will remove this if they find the cause.

It was not intended, as said by Sub_Octavian, so there is no chance they let it in the game when they understand what is the reason behind those citadel hits increase.

 

[lycea]

This is a step in the good direction though I think they've made the changes to big I mean, I citadelled a tirpitz in my Lyon, and almost deleted a full hp yamato with one salvo. Its a bit to much punishment for the average player on the receiving end, at the moment 

[mariouus]

55 minutes ago, lycea said:

This is a step in the good direction though I think they've made the changes to big I mean, I citadelled a tirpitz in my Lyon, and almost deleted a full hp yamato with one salvo. Its a bit to much punishment for the average player on the receiving end, at the moment 

Do be fair, Yamato has not changed at all, really. And Tirpitz have always been citatelable, even by cruisers Moskva (and I think I might have done it in New Orleans as well), it was just more RNG based.

 

Current situation is 1% actual "bug" and 99% Community Contributor driven hype and panic. If you are used do angle your ships, you will see no difference. In fact, all BBs are still much harder do citatel than in open Beta.

 

I am actually confident that this "bug" is not about ballistics or shells. Looks like after new water-effects, ships are slightly higher in the water. Most of the complainants are about ships whose short turtelback is not extending very deep under the water. Or ships that were almost un-citatelable, because of the citadel being well below water.

 

If this is the case, it is not really a bug. In reality, even on exactly the same ship, draft varies by fair margins depending on water temperature. So, I would say lets keep it, lets just act like water in WoWs went from tropical to North-Atlantic

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I'm inclined to believe there's been a stealth nerf/buff whichever way you want to call it.

 

German BBs take huge damage when broadside now as long as you know where to aim and can get nuked like others now. 

 

However it "could" be just that WG shows the citadel icon now for broadside German BBs when in reality the damage is still very similar? As before 20k salvos were no uncommon vs bad German BBs it would just never show a citadel and just be normal penetrations.

 

Meh its all RNG anyway 

 

 

[mariouus]

20 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

However it "could" be just that WG shows the citadel icon now for broadside German BBs when in reality the damage is still very similar? As before 20k salvos were no uncommon vs bad German BBs it would just never show a citadel and just be normal penetrations.

This is good point. They changed how shell inderacts with armor. This might mean that how ribbons are rewarded, because they sayed that they did nothing with penetration. Ribbons, actually, were bugged before.

[KarmaQU_EU]

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/153639-notser-follow-up-intriguing-adjustment-sub_o-comments/

[ForceM1782]

This does at least clarify the intended/unintended question. So it is some sort of bug affecting us all.

 

I feel that it is more the case on certain ships than on others however. For example, in the Missouri i took a triple citadel, from another Missouri while angled just enough to get a shot of my rear turret. Over half HP gone. I then tried to turn away and showed broadside to a Richelieu. (Well i thought better run and kite them for healing up a bit) but then i took another triple citadel from the Richelieu. Distance was about 13 km both times.

 

Before patch i would have taken maybe one citadel while broadside to Richelieu. But then probably i would not have panicked and shown broadside in the first place.

 

In my Alsace however i have yet to take a citadel. Of course there can be no comparison with how it was before the patch with that ship, as it only came with this patch..

 

Tirpitz is now harder to play. It sometimes now takes citadels at short range too, plus the increased amount of normal pens it always took. But when angled absolutely right it can still tank obnoxious amounts of damage. Last match was over 3 Millions and i was alive in the end. If that applies to all german ships (i never grinded their BBs) it’s probably a disadvantage for them compared to before.

 

[ColonelPete]

58 minutes ago, ForceM1782 said:

This does at least clarify the intended/unintended question. So it is some sort of bug affecting us all.

 

I feel that it is more the case on certain ships than on others however. For example, in the Missouri i took a triple citadel, from another Missouri while angled just enough to get a shot of my rear turret. Over half HP gone. 

 

That much broadside could give that many citadels before the patch. Nothing changed...

[jss78]

I don't think they should fix it. IMO BB's never needed those invulnerable citadels, they ALREADY had a sufficient tankiness advantage.

 

But I believe WG when they said it wasn't intentional. And I fear they will fix it, because it goes squarely against the long-obvious design paradigm to make BB's the fit-for-novices class, while cruisers are acceptable collateral damage so long as BB's are REALLY EASY to play.

 

Who knows, from a business angle they're probably right. The simple truth is the experienced/elite players don't keep the lights on at WG. Joe Average is probably most interested in BB's, and they need to be fun for him to play.

[mariouus]

22 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

That much broadside could give that many citadels before the patch. Nothing changed...

More I think of it, more I think that Negativvv is right and it is actually fixed ribbon awarding logic, rather than some bug.

 

Anyway for me, I have not done more damage do German BBs (or Hindenburg)

, while I am getting slightly more citadel ribbons, actual damage done is not higher. Before the patch, ribbons were awarded based on shells first interaction with armor model and this masked some citadels by rewarding overpenetration ribbon, while still doing cit-hit

 

 

 

And when playing, I do not see any difference what so ever in damage wise, I just get more citadel ribbons. 

 

 

 

[RAHJAILARI]

15 hours ago, MortenTardo said:

100% fix. At this very moment you see high tier ships sailing broadside and not getting punished. But players that angle get citadel'd to kingdom come. It seems like everything is way more RNG based now. So every potato and their mother can do just aswell as ppl that have plenty of experience in the game. I cannot citadel the new French BB's in random battles BTW. But if i go into a training room with the exact same angle, exact same point of aim and range i get plenty. Seems fishy WG. VERY. 

Hmmmh... Actually now that I think of it this may in fact turn out to be a good thing then. Perhaps WG is finally changing the game to reflect more actual SEA battles rather that just be a Tanks clone with pictures of ships in it?

 

After all, most ships would have their guns distributed BOTH fore and aft, so enabling broadside firing just makes good sense both in terms of realism and gameplay. Additionally the thickest armor in any warship always IS on the side ("belt armor" anyone?) and they typically would have either a light or no armor in the bow, deck or aft. Also the sk. "Angling" was never a feature of any naval battle I have ever heard of, so if true this might be a good thing overall.

[cro_pwr]

Yes, you can citadel some BBs easier now, and yes, they should leave it as it is.

Every BB sailing broadside forever, without fear of being punished is disgusting.

[philjd]

Does this only affect BB's, or does it also impact on cruisers/CV's?

 

(BB's being the only ships mentioned so far, I would have thought that if it was an unintended consequence of 'something else' then it ought to be universal and not class specific, unless it only impacts on those ships with 'low' citadels, which certainly does not apply to cruisers).

[Infiriel]

I was surprised that i was able to citadel Bismarcks. Now i know why.

[Seeigel]

8 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

I was surprised that i was able to citadel Bismarcks. Now i know why.

You always could. You also can citadel a Conqueror. As long as you dont do it all the time from all angles and distances its alright.

[Gvozdeni_Puk_1912]

As stated previously before - it's the RNG's hidden factor that's probably "adjusted"

Instead of pure RNG chance (0% - 100%) the adjusted chance has possibly been changed to x+RNG(1-x): Example-> X=10% => chance is 10%+RNG(0.0-0.9) giving guaranteed 10% chance to hit citadel. Now imagine guaranteed X=30%, or 45%

Or even imagine X=[1-(player last ? days win%)]