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Sark74

78 AP strikes... 10k damage .. seems low?

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Hey everyone.. 

 

I've been playing a week now.. still having fun, got a few boats up to tier 3-4 while i try new things etc, getting rather decent at using islands as cover etc.. last match was Cruiser and Battleship heavy, i landed 78 AP shells on CA's and BB's and only scored 10k damage, my Ship is the USN Cruiser Phoenix, That's 137 damage per shell... it took me ages to strip 9,000 HP from a Battleship as you can imagine.. where 2 hits took 1/3rd off me.. 

 

again , thanks for any constructive replies :) 

 

Cheers

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First of all, did you play the tutorial?
If yes, does it talk about ammo choice? That's more for my own curiosity, as there was none when I started playing.

Alright, now that that's out of the way, AP in this game is not that simple. Armor values are enormous and your guns can be very modest in terms of penetration. Angle also plays a large role, a shells can very easily ricochet.

What you need to do is go in the options, in the control tab and click "detailed ribbons"
That allows you to see what's happening to your shells when they hit. In your case, I'm more than willing to bet that there were plenty of shells ricocheting or shattering on battleships.
If that's the case, switch to hight explosive shells.

Cruisers, and especially light cruisers, make large use of HE shells. Those can fail to do damage if you hit zones too armored as well, but have a chance to cause fires.


The best thing I can suggest is to go check the game guides for in-depth guides on ammunition.

 

Here is a good start:



 

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AP is not magical solution to all world problems. Phoenix utilizes rather small caliber guns by ship standards, that being 152mm. AP shells of that caliber can more or less reliably penetrate main citadel armor of a cruiser when presented broadside at short to medium ranges, but battleship, especially if angled will be near immune. Thats why you use HE shells against angled and/or too thick skinned shells.

 

In options (Settings->Controls) enable "detailed ribbons" this will give you information what happens to the shells, whether they shatter on too thick armor, ricochet due to too steep angle or overpen. 

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4 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:


First of all, did you play the tutorial?
If yes, does it talk about ammo choice? That's more for my own curiosity, as there was none when I started playing.

Alright, now that that's out of the way, AP in this game is not that simple. Armor values are enormous and your guns can be very modest in terms of penetration. Angle also plays a large role, a shells can very easily ricochet.

What you need to do is go in the options, in the control tab and click "detailed ribbons"
That allows you to see what's happening to your shells when they hit. In your case, I'm more than willing to bet that there were plenty of shells ricocheting or shattering on battleships.
If that's the case, switch to hight explosive shells.

Cruisers, and especially light cruisers, make large use of HE shells. Those can fail to do damage if you hit zones too armored as well, but have a chance to cause fires.


The best thing I can suggest is to go check the game guides for in-depth guides on ammunition.

 

Here is a good start:



 

I tried various angles, even risked broadsiding Battleships, frontal, rear various angles..   I'll have a read on that ..

 

Cheers :) 

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8 minutes ago, Sark74 said:

I tried various angles, even risked broadsiding Battleships, frontal, rear various angles..   I'll have a read on that ..

 

Cheers :) 

 

Well, it's always a bit hard to tell what works, especially on low tiers.
Some BBs have ridiculously high amounts of armor everywhere, and your guns quite inaccurate, so what may not work on some T4 battleships can find themselves working quite well on some T5 battleship.

As a rule of thumb, using cruiser AP on targets facing you or facing away is utterly pointless. Switch to HE .
After that, you get used to what angles work or not. It's trial and error, mixed with some prior knowledge. Take your time on tiers 3 and 4. Those have preferential matchmaking, and are much simpler to learn with than tier 5s.
 

 

You're currently faced with one of the most complex parts of the game, so I'm very glad that you came to the forums to ask.
Feel free to ask about anything. 
Newcomers willing to learn are the most welcomed sight.

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27 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

You're currently faced with one of the most complex parts of the game, so I'm very glad that you came to the forums to ask.
Feel free to ask about anything. 
Newcomers willing to learn are the most welcomed sight.

Every game i play i have to get into it and play it well.. not just the type of person that wants to spam 1 button and gets mad when i loose.. my last match .. i helped a DD cap a zone in my Phoenix, pushing the opposing DD back, raining shells all over the smoke.. even had the nerve to chase it down and not let him get away, how rude of me!! When i play Destroyer, seems everyone else is scared to engage and going round in circles. =/ waiting to be told what to do =( 

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Also note that when you reach tier 5 you lose your protected matchmaking and can meet ships 2 tiers higher, which might make choosing the right ammo type even more important.

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AP shell can do more damage than HE, but only if it penetrates and on the other hand doesn't over penetrate.

And if it's blocked by armor because of lacking power to penetrate it doesn't even have fire chance unlike HE.

Also if AP hits too thinly plated target fuze doesn't arm and or time delay can allow shell to exit other side causing overpenetration and only 10% of shell damage...

Though in some cases AP overpen can do almost same as normal HE penetration. (looking at you Scharnhorst...)

Obviously also AP which hits at too big angle (from normal of surface) bounces, unless it can overmatch:

AP shells always penetrate plating which is less than ~1/14 of its caliber.

 

HE does less damage and rarely gets citadel hits (Danae's rear deck and low tier carriers are good for that) but never bounces and never overpens.

But normally it penetrates only plating under 1/6th of its caliber. (<25mm for 152mm)

So you want to aim HE at weakly armored parts of battleships, like superstructure.

Though USN BBs with all or nothing armor scheme are very weak against small caliber spam so its very easy to do damage to Wyoming and New York.

Other battleships are lot more proof against small caliber spam and you rely more on fires.

Also water line belt armor of cruisers blocks HE.

 

Game client has armor viewer which is excellent for studying where to hit various ships.

Just go to Tech Tree and select ship and then in port view in top right area select Armor model/viewer or something.

Then just move mouse cursor over plating whose thickness you want to see.

 

 

And if you want us watch what happened in some particular situation you can enable replays:

https://na.wargaming.net/support/en/products/wows/articles/128/

You can then either attach file to message or put into any online file storage/sharing site.

Thise files are opened by simply dargging and dropping it into WorldofWarships.exe or associating file to be opened with it.

 

Print Screen key again takes screenshot during match/replay playback.

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52 minutes ago, Sark74 said:

When i play Destroyer, seems everyone else is scared to engage and going round in circles. =/ waiting to be told what to do =( 

Don't worry, that will chance with tiers with especially German cruisers getting better hydro...

Or because some enemy players are just too thick and keep pushing into your smoke screwing you if you don't have torps ready when enemy reaches close range.

And then starting from Tier 7 cruisers start getting radar.

With ~85,km range for Atlanta and Belfast (which can have nearly as good stealth) and ~9,5km for Indianapolis.

 

So in destroyer always be ready to get "ouf of Dodge".

Especially if there are enemy destroyers left you don't want to risk loosing lots of hitpoints.

Also in end game with few enemies left having lots hitpoints can allow destroyer to rush battleship for closer range sure hits if if own team's ships aren't in condition to fight it.

Though except for USN BBs their secondaries are going to do lots of damage to you.

 

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OP: first: welcome in wows and on the Forum. Second: I love your asking for advice to death. Seeing your stats I'd say you're not doing half bad at all. You diversify well. My advice is to add more BB and CV experience in wows. But by all means: keep your questions coming. You'll find out the only true stupid question you can make is the one you don't ask...

 

Edit: to prove my point, you're getting answers by players who forgot more about wows than I'll ever manage to learn. I truly hope to see you in combat very soon. In my case: on my side. But always honored to have a good fight with one of my Forum mates. You are a very promising player OP.

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19 hours ago, domen3 said:

Also note that when you reach tier 5 you lose your protected matchmaking and can meet ships 2 tiers higher, which might make choosing the right ammo type even more important.

 

 I started playing on a friday night, Being a Brit, i started with the British Cruisers, climbing the Tiers and making nice progress, after 2 days i had th Emerald, and literally lost every game i played with it 5-0... i was out of my depth, :D Hence im sticking with Tier 3-4 for now. I still play my Emerald but in Coop battles.. as people's accuracy greatly improves at T5.. lol :D My Poor cruiser doesnt deflect BB's shells well at all.. 

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4 minutes ago, Sark74 said:

 

 I started playing on a friday night, Being a Brit, i started with the British Cruisers, climbing the Tiers and making nice progress, after 2 days i had th Emerald, and literally lost every game i played with it 5-0... i was out of my depth, :D Hence im sticking with Tier 3-4 for now. I still play my Emerald but in Coop battles.. as people's accuracy greatly improves at T5.. lol :D My Poor cruiser doesnt deflect BB's shells well at all.. 

 

To be fair, I think most players didn't fair to well with the Emerals - imo it's the worst ship of the RN CL line and probably the worst ship in the entire game ..

But salvation is near! The Leander is a LOT better and the Fiji is a real beast (in my opinion).

 

Do know that RN CLs have thin armour and their citadel is quite easy to hit, so you'll have to play them careful / smart. Positioning is key.

RN CLs also don't have HE shells, but SAP shells (semi-armour piercing); very potent against broadside targets but nearly useless against angled targets - they require practice and experience (target picking is important, but again, positioning is key)

 

Starting at the Leander, the RN CLs get a smoke consumable - use this one wisely - smoke screens are a torpedo magnet (try to sync your smoke screen usage with your hydro consumable so you get an early warning of incoming torpedoes). Also, it's not because you're concealed inside a smoke screen that you can't be hit - some players are actually quite good at shooting unspotted ships in a smokescreen, using the muzzle flashes of the ship inside the smoke as an indicator where to aim.

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1 hour ago, Sark74 said:

 

 I started playing on a friday night, Being a Brit, i started with the British Cruisers, climbing the Tiers and making nice progress, after 2 days i had th Emerald, and literally lost every game i played with it 5-0... i was out of my depth, :D Hence im sticking with Tier 3-4 for now. I still play my Emerald but in Coop battles.. as people's accuracy greatly improves at T5.. lol :D My Poor cruiser doesnt deflect BB's shells well at all.. 

UK CLs are one of the hardest ships in wows to master...it could be just that.

I know I can't play them right

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1 hour ago, lup3s said:

To be fair, I think most players didn't fair to well with the Emerals - imo it's the worst ship of the RN CL line and probably the worst ship in the entire game ..

 

Emerald isn't that bad. Imho it's actually a great improvement over the Danae (which I consider the worst of the RN CL line). At least Emerald has smoke. The things that are the real shockers and what I suspect most players have problems with is the positioning and the harsh MM.

 

Emerald has below average range for its tier and is just as squishy as the previous RN CLs (even DDs will gleefully load the AP to citadel an Emerald). The smoke is supposed to allow people to play around that range limitation and vulnerability, but the problem is getting into a position where you can make good use of your guns despite the poor range ... and not trading a crapton of HP trying to get into that position.

And then there's the double whammy MM. Tier V loses the protected MM and also happens to be uptiered against tier VI and VII ships a lot and going from tier V to VI there's quite a significant powerjump for cruisers, battleships and aircraft carriers. All of which can stomp a spotted Emerald with contemptous ease if they know halfway what they're doing.

 

RN CLs aren't easy to make sing though if one doesn't know where to put oneself.

 

It's in the OP's best interest to start a more beginner-friendly line to get a good idea of the maps, where to be (and more importantly: where not to be), when to be there and how to get the hell out of dodge once the enemy team comes gunning for you in force.

 

US cruisers are a pretty good learning experience along with the IJN cruisers. US cruisers are also going to split sometime in the near future from tier VI onwards, so that's another good reason to learn with those.

 

 

Also, mandatory advice:

Play all ship classes to at least tier VI to get an idea of how they play, what their limitations are and how players using them think. The experience is invaluable in judging the flow of a match and anticipating enemy actions so you can counter them.

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as a rule of thumb when on CA/CL use HE for DDs and BBs (can use AP when they show broadside)

most of the times you should use HE on DDs unless you recieve a boradside gift from CA/CL

on BBs you shoul use mostly AP even on DDs that dont have citadel. switching shell type will waste time !

 

guys please correct me if i am wrong

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1 hour ago, lup3s said:

 

To be fair, I think most players didn't fair to well with the Emerals - imo it's the worst ship of the RN CL line and probably the worst ship in the entire game ..

But salvation is near! The Leander is a LOT better and the Fiji is a real beast (in my opinion).

 

Do know that RN CLs have thin armour and their citadel is quite easy to hit, so you'll have to play them careful / smart. Positioning is key.

RN CLs also don't have HE shells, but SAP shells (semi-armour piercing); very potent against broadside targets but nearly useless against angled targets - they require practice and experience (target picking is important, but again, positioning is key)

Fiji is "OP" because she is first ship in Tea Kruzers line that actually fixes lack of firepower - light cruiser, with standard 8s reload with only 8 (if not less) 152mm guns... Just no. Also she finally gets actually useful range, unlike earlier ships.

ANd British cruiser citadel plating is actually on par with other nations at the same tier. What makes them vulnerable is rather exposed citadel and underarmored hull - all cruisers are vulnerable to small caliber HE and only from tier 8 onwards they actually can shrug off 203mm shells when ricochet can occur

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1 hour ago, Atorpad said:

most of the times you should use HE on DDs unless you recieve a boradside gift from CA/CL

Destroyer AP works just fine if some all or nothing armored BB like Arizona/New Mexico, Colorado or Nagato shows side.

That 25mm plating outside belt armor of USN BBs is very easy to pen and also Nagato has weaker armor around upper decks.

 

Soviet DDs can use AP all the way to AFT buffed ranges.

Once saved Fuso from bow tanking Colorado doing nearly 20k damage to it.

 

You just have to check armor layouts of battleships to see you can pen with AP.

"Tapered" armor schemes with those ~50-100 mm platings are bad targets for DD APs. (32mm and below good for DD AP)

 

 

1 hour ago, Panocek said:

ANd British cruiser citadel plating is actually on par with other nations at the same tier. What makes them vulnerable is rather exposed citadel and underarmored hull - all cruisers are vulnerable to small caliber HE and only from tier 8 onwards they actually can shrug off 203mm shells when ricochet can occur

All all or nothing armor scheme ships are flimsy taking lots of damage from even smaller caliber shells.

But not all cruisers are such with that thick mid ship plating of IJN cruisers starting T5:

Already 15mm plating is enough to auto-bounce 203mm APs if angled enough. (AP overmatches plating with thickness less than 1/14,3 of its caliber)

Also over 33mm plating is thick enough to block 203mm HEs.

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2 minutes ago, EsaTuunanen said:

All all or nothing armor scheme ships are flimsy taking lots of damage from even smaller caliber shells.

But not all cruisers are such with that thick mid ship plating of IJN cruisers starting T5:

Already 15mm plating is enough to auto-bounce 203mm APs if angled enough. (AP overmatches plating with thickness less than 1/14,3 of its caliber)

Also over 33mm plating is thick enough to block 203mm HEs.

 

Hightier cruisers with plating of 25mm can shrug off DD and CL sized HE if its without IFHE perk. And nearly all cruisers besides lowtier protected/armored ones have all or nothing scheme, though no idea why WG gave 25mm amidships to Furrytaco/Aoba/Myoko. Not that I'm complaining, as these are fine boats to boat around

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2 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Emerald isn't that bad. Imho it's actually a great improvement over the Danae (which I consider the worst of the RN CL line).

 

Each player has a different experience :Smile_Default: I liked the Danae more than the Emerald (probably due to the protected MM).

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BB's can be broadside to u , the dreadnoughts at that tier will let most 152mm ap shells shatter even if broadside, 

 

Shatter means , it tried to pen but the armor was to thick.

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