Destroyer imbalance.

[Oderisson]

Guys, I dont know if anyone else shares my opinion, but recently I have noticed something strange about DD players. Either you get great ones, You know, torping ships, caping, spoting, distracting biger ships with HE shells, actively carrying game to victory, or You get complete baboons on higher tiers. Holding behind battleships and cruisers in shimakazes, sitting in smoke in already capped cap, while BB/CA line is already 5 km further on map, or eating torps that were lunched and spotted 10 km before. Not to mention sailing into other end of the map, while unspotted, trying to find god nows what. Its like this class become black/white with middle ground compleatly wiped out by some deasease. This is main class that determines Victory and like his, with dd scarsity, this is becoming a strange game when You have on each team 5 BBs, 5 CAs, and 2 DDs, which of course, in one team, get killed both right away, and other team DDs wreck havoc.

[AnEvilJoke]

6 minutes ago, Oderisson said:

Guys, I dont know if anyone else shares my opinion, but recently I have noticed something strange about DD players. Either you get great ones, You know, torping ships, caping, spoting, distracting biger ships with HE shells, actively carrying game to victory, or You get complete baboons on higher tiers. Holding behind battleships and cruisers in shimakazes, sitting in smoke in already capped cap, while BB/CA line is already 5 km further on map, or eating torps that were lunched and spotted 10 km before. Not to mention sailing into other end of the map, while unspotted, trying to find god nows what. Its like this class become black/white with middle ground compleatly wiped out by some deasease. This is main class that determines Victory and like his, with dd scarsity, this is becoming a strange game when You have on each team 5 BBs, 5 CAs, and 2 DDs, which of course, in one team, get killed both right away, and other team DDs wreck havoc.

 

Welcome to "play at weekends" lad.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

7 minutes ago, Oderisson said:

...Its like this class become black/white with middle ground compleatly wiped out by some deasease...

That disease is called WG balancing.  You can also see it when it comes to CVs.

[Oderisson]

Just now, Mandalorianer said:

 

Welcome to play at weekends lad.

If this was this weekends problem I would have mentioned it in the last 2,5 years, I have playing this game. This is something new, recent, something I havent observed before

[AnEvilJoke]

2 minutes ago, Oderisson said:

If this was this weekends problem I would have mentioned it in the last 2,5 years, I have playing this game. This is something new, recent, something I havent observed before

 

Forgive me but it did read like a typical weekend thread and well... My clock say's 10:10 P.M. on a saturday so...yeah...sorry?

[Oderisson]

1 minute ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

That disease is called WG balancing.  You can also see it when it comes to CVs.

Yeah, and I have noticed it and stopped playing CVs at tier 8. Kinda got tired of getting my [edited]handled to me on a platter. But there were no recent changes to DDs. Stelth firing was taken out, and I believe it was a smart thing, and long ago but thats pretty much it. Smoke change didnt effect DDs. Nothing did. Why middle ground left?

[CptQanuk]

What's so strange? It is normal matchmaking, with random players. How's this imbalanced? Get into that DD then and tip the scale!

[Zocker_Paradise]

Vor 13 Minuten, Oderisson sagte:

Guys, I dont know if anyone else shares my opinion, but recently I have noticed something strange about DD players. Either you get great ones, You know, torping ships, caping, spoting, distracting biger ships with HE shells, actively carrying game to victory, or You get complete baboons on higher tiers. Holding behind battleships and cruisers in shimakazes, sitting in smoke in already capped cap, while BB/CA line is already 5 km further on map, or eating torps that were lunched and spotted 10 km before. Not to mention sailing into other end of the map, while unspotted, trying to find god nows what. Its like this class become black/white with middle ground compleatly wiped out by some deasease. This is main class that determines Victory and like his, with dd scarsity, this is becoming a strange game when You have on each team 5 BBs, 5 CAs, and 2 DDs, which of course, in one team, get killed both right away, and other team DDs wreck havoc.

Well it's similar to CVs.. the gap between average/below average and good is big in here.

On DDs u got like 90 % average or below., 9% average to decent and less then 1 % really good players.

If you get one guy of the 10 % in the enemy team and got the 90 % average or below on yours and there is no CV in the game, the game is decided mostly.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

1 minute ago, Oderisson said:

Yeah, and I have noticed it and stopped playing CVs at tier 8. Kinda got tired of getting my [edited]handled to me on a platter. But there were no recent changes to DDs. Stelth firing was taken out, and I believe it was a smart thing, and long ago but thats pretty much it. Smoke change didnt effect DDs. Nothing did. Why middle ground left?

My opinion... only that.  At one point, DDs (US and Japan) had it too easy and were over played, so WG rightfully started to introduce counters... Russian DDs, hydro, smoke change (Version 1), smoke V2, radar, torpedo visibility, radar, etc.; and while I agree counters we good for the game, what the effect was... DDs became more complex to play...  more difficult to play well...  While at the same time BBs, which could have used some help were over buffed relative to the other ships type... easier to play. 

 

The end result is DD went from +5 per game to somewhere where around 3 per game.  The skill floor remained the same but the ceiling went up.  You can still just jump in and flop around but to actually have a strong impact you need to git gud.   A result of this is a lot of players gave up on DDs, resulting in less DD per game, which actually helps the more skilled DD players.  

 

To directly answer the question of why the mid ground left... because other types of ships now fulfilled their needs better.

[Zocker_Paradise]

Vor 14 Minuten, basti82_ sagte:

Well it's similar to CVs.. the gap between average/below average and good is big in here.

On DDs u got like 90 % average or below., 9% average to decent and less then 1 % really good players.

If you get one guy of the 10 % in the enemy team and got the 90 % average or below on yours and there is no CV in the game, the game is decided mostly.

very next game after this post.. game basically decided after 4 minutes.. all enemy DDs down.

[Oderisson]

12 minutes ago, basti82_ said:

very next game after this post.. game basically decided after 4 minutes.. all enemy DDs down.

Wow, this screen illustrates my point perfectly.

 

Look at Your DDs. Keeping with the main force, providing spot, or caping in Your case well defended spot with BB in the back providing backup and modest force in the middle. Other DD capped other point with rest of team supporting him. Proffesional.

 

And now other team. Two idiots rushed cap with no support, while rest of enemy team was all going left. Let me guess, they managed to push through, while Your right flank lost one or two ships while retreating, but in the end got outflanked. What were DDs thinking? That team will follow them, because they decided so? And decided to take a cap in the open without cover? Idiots.

 

And tis isnt weekend problem.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

17 minutes ago, Oderisson said:

...What were DDs thinking? That team will follow them, because they decided so?...

Actually yes.  

 

Most of the red BB and cruisers are completely out of position.

 

One of the red DD players is actually good, while the other is just average, but was out spotted and out gunned by his opponent Tier 9 vs Tier 7.  In a situation in which you are in an inferior DD engagement 'support' can easily make the difference, but much of the red team has moved to a position which supports nothing nor are they pushing anything.

[That_Other_Nid]

56 minutes ago, Oderisson said:

If this was this weekends problem I would have mentioned it in the last 2,5 years, I have playing this game. This is something new, recent, something I havent observed before

It's a sign that there is a mission somewhere to land 10 flooding hits or something similar. Some of our wildly unqualified BBabies take out DDs and play at their usual skill level. 

[GulvkluderGuld]

As has been said, many counters have been introduced to DDs since release, making DD play at tier 8+ hard. Reasons include:

- Balanced BB AP ^(TM) + 

- BBabies have discovered they can actually HIT dds at 10+ km (they didnt even try to shoot dds a year or two ago).

- Lots things that spot DDs have been introduced and there is plenty in each game: CVs, Radar, Z52 hydro, Lo Yang hydro and RN cruisers to mention a few. They all have fairly long range too.

- DDs have low hp pools and teams focus them REALLY hard compared to a year or two ago. 

- if you miss even one of the threats on enemy team, you die. 

 

To succeed as a dd, you must plan any approach to a place where enemy DDs might be so that you know

- No radar ships unaccounted for, none in range (or there is a fat island covering you) or radar already used (and not yet ready again).

- No CV or red CV planes busy on the other side of the map; also no CAs with fighter planes nearby

- No Z52, Lo Yang, german dds or BBs with hydro in spotting range or able to close to spotting range.

- How many DDs are unaccounted for? Can they outspot my DD and by how much, and can I fight them 1v1?

- How much backup is available for either team? Which backup is closest (backup from the spawn does no good)? It is usually the backup that decides DD fights and this judgement comes down to experience.

- If there is a DD I can fight, can it be approached from a position where all or most red backup guns are blocked by an island?

- Is smoke /speed boost /torps ready if it becomes necessary to disengage prematurely?

 

If all above checks out, it is possible to approach the cap with a good chance of not dying, but it may still cost 95% of hp.

 

Is it any wonder dd noobs and newbies get slaughtered and you probably see them in a big phat BB kemping border in the next match?

 

1 hour ago, Oderisson said:

Wow, this screen illustrates my point perfectly.

 

Look at Your DDs. Keeping with the main force, providing spot, or caping in Your case well defended spot with BB in the back providing backup and modest force in the middle. Other DD capped other point with rest of team supporting him. Proffesional.

 

And now other team. Two idiots rushed cap with no support, while rest of enemy team was all going left. Let me guess, they managed to push through, while Your right flank lost one or two ships while retreating, but in the end got outflanked. What were DDs thinking? That team will follow them, because they decided so? And decided to take a cap in the open without cover? Idiots.

 

And tis isnt weekend problem.

 

What I see is the Red team BBs and CAs are completely out of position. 

Typical camper team where you can tell by minute 2 the game is lost beyond all recovery, even a Unicum DD player couldnt carry this crop of weekend clowns (pardon me being harsh).

Compare the two teams: Green dds have support, red dds did not. Reason: red team is failing to support any capping activities, preferring to go hunting for Space Vikings in the corner and not get their pretty paint scratched. The red dds position were fine if their team actually wanted to play WoWs.

 

As a pretty decent DD player I would consider this team beyond carrying and just farm whatever damage and caps I could.

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, Mandalorianer said:

 

Welcome to "play at weekends" lad.

Apart from this happening every day in every class...

[Oderisson]

1 hour ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Actually yes.  

 

Most of the red BB and cruisers are completely out of position.

 

One of the red DD players is actually good, while the other is just average, but was out spotted and out gunned by his opponent Tier 9 vs Tier 7.  In a situation in which you are in an inferior DD engagement 'support' can easily make the difference, but much of the red team has moved to a position which supports nothing nor are they pushing anything.

But if they saw that they are not following they should react. Winning team didnt commit any dds to middle because without cover this would be suicide

[Profilus]

34 minutes ago, Oderisson said:

But if they saw that they are not following they should react. Winning team didnt commit any dds to middle because without cover this would be suicide

There's no point to follow your team into corner in a DD.

[Wildf1re]

1 hour ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

As has been said, many counters have been introduced to DDs since release, making DD play at tier 8+ hard. Reasons include:

- Balanced BB AP ^(TM) + 

- BBabies have discovered they can actually HIT dds at 10+ km (they didnt even try to shoot dds a year or two ago).

- Lots things that spot DDs have been introduced and there is plenty in each game: CVs, Radar, Z52 hydro, Lo Yang hydro and RN cruisers to mention a few. They all have fairly long range too.

- DDs have low hp pools and teams focus them REALLY hard compared to a year or two ago. 

- if you miss even one of the threats on enemy team, you die. 

 

To succeed as a dd, you must plan any approach to a place where enemy DDs might be so that you know

- No radar ships unaccounted for, none in range (or there is a fat island covering you) or radar already used (and not yet ready again).

- No CV or red CV planes busy on the other side of the map; also no CAs with fighter planes nearby

- No Z52, Lo Yang, german dds or BBs with hydro in spotting range or able to close to spotting range.

- How many DDs are unaccounted for? Can they outspot my DD and by how much, and can I fight them 1v1?

- How much backup is available for either team? Which backup is closest (backup from the spawn does no good)? It is usually the backup that decides DD fights and this judgement comes down to experience.

- If there is a DD I can fight, can it be approached from a position where all or most red backup guns are blocked by an island?

- Is smoke /speed boost /torps ready if it becomes necessary to disengage prematurely?

 

If all above checks out, it is possible to approach the cap with a good chance of not dying, but it may still cost 95% of hp.

 

Is it any wonder dd noobs and newbies get slaughtered and you probably see them in a big phat BB kemping border in the next match?

 

 

What I see is the Red team BBs and CAs are completely out of position. 

Typical camper team where you can tell by minute 2 the game is lost beyond all recovery, even a Unicum DD player couldnt carry this crop of weekend clowns (pardon me being harsh).

Compare the two teams: Green dds have support, red dds did not. Reason: red team is failing to support any capping activities, preferring to go hunting for Space Vikings in the corner and not get their pretty paint scratched. The red dds position were fine if their team actually wanted to play WoWs.

 

As a pretty decent DD player I would consider this team beyond carrying and just farm whatever damage and caps I could.

Well said.

[Kassiba]

Isn't it like that with every ship ? The only question is: how many and which class. You can win with 1 bad DD, BB or CA. But if all 4 dd are gone with less than 4 minutes played, you are screwed. And as for cv, unicum vs tomato, the worse one usually is enough to decide the match.

 

I had a Shima yesterday. He started moving 5 minutes after the match had started, and of course the enemy had taken the cap on this flank a long time ago. I don't think he ever was at the front line, on the contrary, usually behind everyone else. He didn't have to, 20 km torps ftw. The biggest surprise was he didn't team damage anyone. We lost, and he "scored" 11th place. And now you are telling me he soon can do this **i* in the Asashio at tier 6-10, too ?

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

1 hour ago, Oderisson said:

But if they saw that they are not following they should react. Winning team didnt commit any dds to middle because without cover this would be suicide

I think the green team did have a Z23 in the middle.

 

As a DD I like to start fast... get out there and spot for the team, because one of the great weaknesses of BBs, and to some extend CA, is the inability to disengage quickly from bad tactic situations.  If I head to a cap with a BB and Cruiser in support, and then come across the opposing team attacking with 4 BBs... my team has actionable intel that will allow them not to engage; and then I can fight a delaying action.  

 

What seems to have happened here is both of the red DDs went to B, found green had committed a minor force (DD, CA and a BB); which should have mean the red cruisers and battleships had a major numeric advantage.  The BB and cruisers should have moved up in force and supported... there was no logic reason not to, but they instead move to the 9-10 line far from any cap.

[Zocker_Paradise]

Well.. it was a mix of the enemy DDs not recognizing the game situation and the "backup" of them moving out of position on herd mentality.

From the DD point of view contesting B against a blocking DD of us plus the fact that A was beeing capped simultaneously was simply dumb. They sat inside B waiting to get flanked.

 

The only real option there was going with the fleet over C. Why were the enemy Cruisers and BBs out of position? Coz they had no DD support there and saw C getting capped with the logical conclusion that there is a DD sitting in front of them uncontested.

 

Games literally being decided after 3 or 4 minutes are weird for either side.. the thing is, that those situations happen frequently and sometimes even worse...

 

3 ships down after 3 minutes.. games was over after 9

Spoiler

We're not close to frequent WoT 5 minute games where u finish the game and think to yourself what was that and what did I do in this game?

But the feeling sometimes is close to it and I would prefer that WoWs keeps being the more decent strategic game instead of a 5 minute adrenaline rush experience.

 

[Gnirf]

10 hours ago, Oderisson said:

Wow, this screen illustrates my point perfectly.

 

Look at Your DDs. Keeping with the main force, providing spot, or caping in Your case well defended spot with BB in the back providing backup and modest force in the middle. Other DD capped other point with rest of team supporting him. Proffesional.

 

And now other team. Two idiots rushed cap with no support, while rest of enemy team was all going left. Let me guess, they managed to push through, while Your right flank lost one or two ships while retreating, but in the end got outflanked. What were DDs thinking? That team will follow them, because they decided so? And decided to take a cap in the open without cover? Idiots.

 

And tis isnt weekend problem.

Sure but at the same time if you are in a DD you kind of expected to scout and contest a cap, yesterday I played Trident (domination) in a Kamikaze and at left cap faced a Aigle which I outspotted , I stayed within thee band of spotting him without spotted myself for several minutes, he had two cruisers, Budyonny and one other as support, did my team help no Both a BB and a Cleveland started by going down to left corner after 5 minutes they returned. I am not good at DDs but we are far more dependent now on our team to take out the enemies than before, at hgighre tiers radar hydro ships etc and also to firing at our DD counterparts in the caps and be close enough. On two Brothers also in Kami I took the right cap and faced an enemy DD we were two DDs also a Farragut. 3 BBs went right bottom corner more or less. If you are in a BB go closer if your salvo can chunk off 2-4000 of a DD it is of great help, even if enemy does not sink , he will probably be cautios and retreat.

 

It is always a teamgame, where it naturally helps to be good at judgment, but in the end if you see that the rest of the team is useless I rather do something desperate (bad) to achieve something instead of seeing thae points deficit reaching catastrophic numbers.

 

This last thing is also something that many players regardless of class should be more careful about, especially if you are in marked shipdeficit or lead, so many games are unnecessary lost or won in the end.

 

[EmilyFara]

10 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

As has been said, many counters have been introduced to DDs since release, making DD play at tier 8+ hard. Reasons include:

- Balanced BB AP ^(TM) + 

- BBabies have discovered they can actually HIT dds at 10+ km (they didnt even try to shoot dds a year or two ago).

- Lots things that spot DDs have been introduced and there is plenty in each game: CVs, Radar, Z52 hydro, Lo Yang hydro and RN cruisers to mention a few. They all have fairly long range too.

- DDs have low hp pools and teams focus them REALLY hard compared to a year or two ago. 

- if you miss even one of the threats on enemy team, you die. 

 

To succeed as a dd, you must plan any approach to a place where enemy DDs might be so that you know

- No radar ships unaccounted for, none in range (or there is a fat island covering you) or radar already used (and not yet ready again).

- No CV or red CV planes busy on the other side of the map; also no CAs with fighter planes nearby

- No Z52, Lo Yang, german dds or BBs with hydro in spotting range or able to close to spotting range.

- How many DDs are unaccounted for? Can they outspot my DD and by how much, and can I fight them 1v1?

- How much backup is available for either team? Which backup is closest (backup from the spawn does no good)? It is usually the backup that decides DD fights and this judgement comes down to experience.

- If there is a DD I can fight, can it be approached from a position where all or most red backup guns are blocked by an island?

- Is smoke /speed boost /torps ready if it becomes necessary to disengage prematurely?

 

If all above checks out, it is possible to approach the cap with a good chance of not dying, but it may still cost 95% of hp.

 

Is it any wonder dd noobs and newbies get slaughtered and you probably see them in a big phat BB kemping border in the next match?

 

 

What I see is the Red team BBs and CAs are completely out of position. 

Typical camper team where you can tell by minute 2 the game is lost beyond all recovery, even a Unicum DD player couldnt carry this crop of weekend clowns (pardon me being harsh).

Compare the two teams: Green dds have support, red dds did not. Reason: red team is failing to support any capping activities, preferring to go hunting for Space Vikings in the corner and not get their pretty paint scratched. The red dds position were fine if their team actually wanted to play WoWs.

 

As a pretty decent DD player I would consider this team beyond carrying and just farm whatever damage and caps I could.

Completely agree. The biggest 'problem' (and for me, challenge) is that as a good DD player you need to know so much knowledge. I have basically learned every ships hydro range, RADAR range, detection range with and without full concealment build, torpedo range, estimate torpedo reload and more. You need to do a full 'analysis' of the matchup during the load screen. Have a good hard look at the map. Check your spawn location, best way to approach something. And most of all, adapt to the situations your allies throw you in. I generally find it easier to predict my enemies movement than I do the movement of my own team.

 

Well, if you check the location where their DDs died, they were also out of position. They should never be in that spot when the team is clearly not helping. In this case it would've been better to go ahead of the fleet and secure C and abandon A and B to the enemy. The death of a DD is too crippling for a team. Some DDs also seem to have this crippling sense of entitlement, just like some BB players.

[Gnirf]

18 minutes ago, stewie533 said:

I generally find it easier to predict my enemies movement than I do the movement of my own team.

Thats quite natural, as you assume the enemy do the right/worst thing until proven otherwise and try to plan accordingly and the other way around for your team 

[GulvkluderGuld]

1 hour ago, stewie533 said:

Well, if you check the location where their DDs died, they were also out of position. They should never be in that spot when the team is clearly not helping. In this case it would've been better to go ahead of the fleet and secure C and abandon A and B to the enemy. The death of a DD is too crippling for a team. Some DDs also seem to have this crippling sense of entitlement, just like some BB players.

Yup agree on that. It was probably the best chance of getting a cap in that game.

 

Still, I like IJN dds around B for spotting on this map, assuming the team is decent and able to take advantage.