Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
loppantorkel

Game complexity grows, game quality degrades?

25 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[UNICS]
Players
3,284 posts
13,006 battles

Just saw the end of the Flamu video where he expresses a bit of frustration over the playerbase that in his eyes is getting worse - 'The average level of play has gotten significantly worse from a year ago'. Maybe it's the steam release, or maybe something else.

The thing is, when you start a MP game with 2 ship lines, most newcomers will learn the basics fairly quickly and the game quality holds up pretty good. The game expands, complexity increases and people enjoy the increase in depth, newcomers aren't overwhelmed, but a few years down the line, you suddenly have a pretty complex game with 100s of ships, each with their special quirks, radars, hydros, deep water torps, different armour layouts, captain skills, IFHE (but not for German cruisers because they have special pens), smoke detectability, etc, with plenty of things changing with each new update (are the RN bbs now citadellable??).

 

For a game like WoT where the playerbase is huge (I kind of assume the player retention is a bit higher than in WoWs) game complexity may not play as big role, but in WoWs where I think you've got a fairly small group of dedicated players and maybe higher turnover of players, you end up having a big pool of newcomers trying to learn a very complex game from the start, and a group of veteran players not enjoying the game because the level of play is too low.

 

Sooo... Does WoWs benefit from adding new ships, increase of depth and complexity at this rate or should it be scaled back to earlier less complex iterations and move more slowly, maybe with greater focus on maps, modes and fluff?

 

I realise that 'WG shouldn't cater to the lowest common denominator' and such and that there might be some delusions about educating the playerbase. I'm not advocating they dumb the game down, but there might be a point in the gameplay degradation over time in WoWs. Not sure, but maybe. It's a good game, I hope it stays afloat.

  • Cool 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[H_FAN]
Players
2,071 posts
25,873 battles

Interesting post to discuss from OP even if I don not necessary agree on everything. New maps, new ships are on the other hand needed to retain people/players.

 

But to the feeling that the playerbase are getting worse, sure it might be so that the first influx of players were more dedicated and have less ships and maps to learn and worry about, I mean how many times I have played the Solomons 800-1200? or so. I have even played ocean a few hundred because back then it was common in mid tiers.

 

But you have an effect with that back then Flamus (and other veterans) relative experience gap was less superior, as most palyers were new, now when I play at lower tiers you some times feel like a god against the new broadside BB players, straight line travelling ships are many more, but i think partly this is because you recognize the bad/new players so easily because it is easy to see the difference after a few torp walls f.e.  Players that do not know or understand their job, and to make best use of their ship. So the skill difference is by definition higher when you have many players that have several thousand games and those with a few hundred that ends up at T5, that is unavoidable, but it is also a psychological feeling among the veterans as they are better recognizing the faults.

 

We veterans have also have had a easier progress as we played and built the lines from the start when there was 2 and then kept pace with the new lines, even with my pace of games, it is difficult to start now and to the same without far heavier investments in flags , XPcamos than earlier so F2P was not the same issue then, now to get a reasonable grind you have to pay, that is one reason that all these more expensive flags and camos with far better XP generation than before have a market, both for the company to sell and for people to buy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
503 posts
1,785 battles
4 minutes ago, Gnirf said:

But you have an effect with that back then Flamus (and other veterans) relative experience gap was less superior, as most palyers were new, now when I play at lower tiers you some times feel like a god against the new broadside BB players, straight line travelling ships are many more, but i think partly this is because you recognize the bad/new players so easily because it is easy to see the difference after a few torp walls f.e.  Players that do not know or understand their job, and to make best use of their ship. So the skill difference is by definition higher when you have many players that have several thousand games and those with a few hundred that ends up at T5, that is unavoidable, but it is also a psychological feeling among the veterans as they are better recognizing the faults.

I agree that this is probably a significant element to this, for every 200 matches or so I play I find myself getting increasingly frustrated with the plays my teammates do. Not sure if I'd call myself a veteran or even a good player though. When I was still "innocent" at 2-300 battles I just focused on what I was doing myself and was mostly under the impression that people knew what they were doing.

 

However, I'd argue that there feels like it's been an increase in totally clueless players that I did not notice a year ago (DDs sailing behind cruisers and BBs, smoking up to farm damage against enemy BBs rathern than cap or screen for torps etc.) It's become a trend to exclusively use HE in BBs, at mid or low tiers (T7 and below) most DDs on my team have been naked in the matches I've played since I picked the game up again etc. 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[H_FAN]
Players
2,071 posts
25,873 battles
3 minutes ago, CleverViking said:

I agree that this is probably a significant element to this, for every 200 matches or so I play I find myself getting increasingly frustrated with the plays my teammates do. Not sure if I'd call myself a veteran or even a good player though. When I was still "innocent" at 2-300 battles I just focused on what I was doing myself and was mostly under the impression that people knew what they were doing.

 

However, I'd argue that there feels like it's been an increase in totally clueless players that I did not notice a year ago (DDs sailing behind cruisers and BBs, smoking up to farm damage against enemy BBs rathern than cap or screen for torps etc.) It's become a trend to exclusively use HE in BBs, at mid or low tiers (T7 and below) most DDs on my team have been naked in the matches I've played since I picked the game up again etc. 

Yes, I feel the same, I know that I am not a good DD player especially at the beginning at my career, but then you always moved to the cap or scouted, even if you did not do it well or were bad at torp aiming you at least had the right intentions, now when a DD hides behind he is not use to anyone not even himself as he cant reach anything with his fire and only torp his own team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,823 posts
16,490 battles
4 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Just saw the end of the Flamu video where he expresses a bit of frustration over the playerbase that in his eyes is getting worse - 'The average level of play has gotten significantly worse from a year ago'.

i agree 100%

 

4 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Maybe it's the steam release, or maybe something else.

 probably a part of the problem

 

4 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

The thing is, when you start a MP game with 2 ship lines, most newcomers will learn the basics fairly quickly and the game quality holds up pretty good. The game expands, complexity increases and people enjoy the increase in depth, newcomers aren't overwhelmed, but a few years down the line, you suddenly have a pretty complex game with 100s of ships, each with their special quirks, radars, hydros, deep water torps, different armour layouts, captain skills, IFHE (but not for German cruisers because they have special pens), smoke detectability, etc, with plenty of things changing with each new update (are the RN bbs now citadellable??).

 

For a game like WoT where the playerbase is huge (I kind of assume the player retention is a bit higher than in WoWs) game complexity may not play as big role, but in WoWs where I think you've got a fairly small group of dedicated players and maybe higher turnover of players, you end up having a big pool of newcomers trying to learn a very complex game from the start, and a group of veteran players not enjoying the game because the level of play is too low.

 

Sooo... Does WoWs benefit from adding new ships, increase of depth and complexity at this rate or should it be scaled back to earlier less complex iterations and move more slowly, maybe with greater focus on maps, modes and fluff?

i would be VERRY cautious to establish any causality between the game becoming "more complex" and the player base mean skill degrading!

there might be some  correlation and even causality there but imho i do not  think players are overwhelmed.

 

the main reason i see  why the "teams gotten so shitty" is the constant flood of missions that often skew MM and set bad incentives to  players ingame!

 this together with competetive modes beeing active a lot of the time sucking the better skilled part of the comunity out of the MM queue.

 

those are the real culprits

 

4 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

I realise that 'WG shouldn't cater to the lowest common denominator' [...]

 

but thats what they do.... releasing more and more ships with all over the place dispersion  is  making ships that people with no aim will still land hits but people with good aim wont hit much more than people with average aim....

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[EST]
[EST]
Players
873 posts
19,383 battles
1 hour ago, CleverViking said:

It's become a trend to exclusively use HE in BBs, at mid or low tiers (T7 and below)

It has been always like that. They used to be  just called noobs,but after brit BB everybody assumes that these players used AP before.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
779 posts
11,843 battles

 New prem camos, new major economy flags, economy changes in general on maintanance of the ships (high tiers in particular), rigged MM to boost newcomers and keeping them interested, made the game progression between tiers WAY to fast. Old economy kept the majority of new players in between tier 5-7 because it was hard for them to maintain credits past tier 8. Now, taking a prem camo for tier 10 and putting on few flags makes it the same as making credits on tier 5.

 WG deliberately made the game simple so that every handicaped person or apes from the zoo could play the game with 0 effort, throwing in some cash by taking a bundle once in a while. They succeded, enjoy the results.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
204 posts
329 battles

This game is not everiones cup of tea. The steam release introduced a lot  more mainstream gamers so till they get a feel for it or drop it, we will haw dreadfull MM. WoWs is a niche game after all. Game mechanics wise its laughable compared to games like eve online or EQ2, etc.

 

And as a general rule of thumb: the more complex the mehanic, the less people bothering to reach the treshhold of competitivnes because nowadays it's more about fun and engaging gameplay and not about pitting elbow grease to be better than everyone. For me personally WoWs functions around teamplay a lot more than WoT and there are almost no mechanics in place to make solo play wiable, so i'll stick to ships till tier 5 for now.

 

Btw: the introduction of game changing consumables like radar and hawing teams that can extend its duration X3 times longer by activating them one by one at a time isin't fun - it's a stalemate of not doing anyting, just playing defensvely. So you kill off the badly positioned ships out first and the battle is decided allreaddy. I lost count how many games i saved by bush camping in WoT solo vs 3-5 guys. WoWs is a different game in this regard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester, Players
5,317 posts

what u expect , faced yesterday  div of 3x bb ( free fr bb , via mission ) all 3 with t8 fr bb, max ships t3-5 all of them 40-43%, thats what is current player base , when wg gives free ships

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
993 posts
21,888 battles

Its actually quite clear: there are TWO WoWS-game-experiences:

 

1st

Wows played with ships tiers 1 u/i 6 + some premium tier 7 ships: thats the wows ALL like..thats the wows why people become longtime subscribers...thats the Wows with real GREAT entertainment value...great experiences...great fun. My rating for this Wows was and still is for sure 9,5 out of 10. Simply great!:cap_like:

 

2nd

Wows played with ships tiers 8 u/i 10: this is a totally different game (not even a game anymore, its more like "doing-dull-working-hours". This Wows make people wonder: "why would I ever decide to spend 20 mins in such dull/boring battles. No fun there...no entertaining value there...for very many not worth considering playing it. This Wows I for sure rate with a 4 out of 10. Dull, boring, no-fun and no entertaining-value whatsoever. Kind of "doing "working-hours" there..instead of enthousiastic gaming:cap_fainting:

 

Luckily we have the great WoWS (T1-T6) which gives me the real "drive" to play this game!!...(.....otherwise I would have quitted the game already some years ago,, for sure):cap_popcorn:

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[H_FAN]
Players
2,071 posts
25,873 battles
56 minutes ago, Yaskaraxx said:

Its actually quite clear: there are TWO WoWS-game-experiences:

 

1st

Wows played with ships tiers 1 u/i 6 + some premium tier 7 ships: thats the wows ALL like..thats the wows why people become longtime subscribers...thats the Wows with real GREAT entertainment value...great experiences...great fun. My rating for this Wows was and still is for sure 9,5 out of 10. Simply great!:cap_like:

 

2nd

Wows played with ships tiers 8 u/i 10: this is a totally different game (not even a game anymore, its more like "doing-dull-working-hours". This Wows make people wonder: "why would I ever decide to spend 20 mins in such dull/boring battles. No fun there...no entertaining value there...for very many not worth considering playing it. This Wows I for sure rate with a 4 out of 10. Dull, boring, no-fun and no entertaining-value whatsoever. Kind of "doing "working-hours" there..instead of enthousiastic gaming:cap_fainting:

 

Luckily we have the great WoWS (T1-T6) which gives me the real "drive" to play this game!!...(.....otherwise I would have quitted the game already some years ago,, for sure):cap_popcorn:

 

You quit the game before release?:cap_haloween:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
4,525 posts
9,851 battles
3 hours ago, Azalgor said:

 New prem camos, new major economy flags, economy changes in general on maintanance of the ships (high tiers in particular), rigged MM to boost newcomers and keeping them interested, made the game progression between tiers WAY to fast. Old economy kept the majority of new players in between tier 5-7 because it was hard for them to maintain credits past tier 8. Now, taking a prem camo for tier 10 and putting on few flags makes it the same as making credits on tier 5.

 WG deliberately made the game simple so that every handicaped person or apes from the zoo could play the game with 0 effort, throwing in some cash by taking a bundle once in a while. They succeded, enjoy the results.

 

You off all people are in no position to complain about other players in this game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
3,984 posts
14,858 battles

The problem with the playerbase getting worse comes not from the game having got more complex. It didn't. In fact, some parts of the game were made way too easy.

 

The main problem with the playerbase is, that way too many players don't have the tinyest bit of knowledge of tactics. Zero... nil... none whatsoever. Even if they would know ship stats in and out, they would still be sheeples who just follow the herd, so they don't have to think for themselves. Because thinking might hurt.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
1,589 posts
13,507 battles

The fact that WG is not educating the players is the biggest problem IMO. 

These guys are not keeping up with the latest like us that hang around the forums. So you end up with "casual" players that have around 40% WR and don't know basics. 

Basics like repair bill. Yes players STILL think saving HP on ships is good for saving credits. Yes STILL!

 

So if anything WG needs to educate these players. And only after they do that we will maybe see some increase in "player skill" . But if they don't, we will have sniping Tirpitz's that save HP for lower repair costs. 

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,638 posts
14,640 battles
14 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

...Just saw the end of the Flamu video where he expresses a bit of frustration over the playerbase that in his eyes is getting worse - 'The average level of play has gotten significantly worse from a year ago'...

I have no evidence to back up my opinion, but at mid tier I think the player base has gotten slightly better.

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[UNICS]
Players
3,284 posts
13,006 battles
49 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

The problem with the playerbase getting worse comes not from the game having got more complex. It didn't. In fact, some parts of the game were made way too easy.

 

The main problem with the playerbase is, that way too many players don't have the tinyest bit of knowledge of tactics. Zero... nil... none whatsoever. Even if they would know ship stats in and out, they would still be sheeples who just follow the herd, so they don't have to think for themselves. Because thinking might hurt.

I doubt the knowledge of tactics has decreased. These people have always been around, but now you have a small group of players with knowledge of tactics and that have played each map several hundred times. Of course there will be a huge skill gap. You may close the gap a tiny amount by adding tutorials, but you'll always have the bot-like players in the game. Either you narrow the skill gap by changing mechanics/meta or by changing the MM. ..or you accept the widening gap of player skills and try alleviate the effects the best you can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,380 posts
245 battles

I have to admit, the tutorial is pretty bad and as per usual teaches you nothing but the bare minimum of the game, i might start getting back into the game, also this game does remind me of world of tanks in some way especially the rng which (is not the only thing) drives me around the bloody bend.

 

although i played when we still had only usa and jap ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SNUBS]
Players
79 posts
10,323 battles

Also, I have to add something,

It's been proven scientifically that when you have a very wide variety of choices you usually end up choosing nothing.

Usually, when I get tired of a ship, like Kamika or Yamato, I just end up leaving the game because I can't decide what to play next.

I get a headache whenever I take a look at the ship lines. There's way too many of them. There isn't any info in the tech tree about what's special about that ship line. The only thing old players know is which of the ships are worth playing in a certain line, nothing more. 

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
581 posts
3,759 battles

Yeah playerbase sucks more and more because mid/high tier ships are handed out (paid or gifted) to anybody who happens to install the game. When one sails t6-8 ships with only 10 battles under his belt, idiocracy is unavoidable...

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
[NWP]
Players
8,241 posts
11,737 battles

I actually think both WoWS and WoT is simply too complex for the average gamer.

 

As a very casual player can yolo but still get kills and probably enjoy themselves even if what they do is completely wrong and idiotic. 

 

It takes a lot of time to learn both games properly. I'm a dirty WN8 user in WoT and the amount of people with tens of thousands of games who don't even know basics like avoiding open ground, how to ridge line and when to F**king withdraw is staggering...

 

It's part of WG's model for Random Battles. You can either rage about it or harvest the tomatoes and potatoes all the way to Unicum status.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
803 posts
4,376 battles

I actually think the game is too simple, yet is unclear in its mechanics at the same time.

 

If it was simple yet clear, it would be enjoyable, if it was complex yet unclear, it would also be enjoyable and enthralling, as a challenge.

 

But if it was complex, yet clear and intuitive, it would be a god-tier game.

 

I wish it were a god-tier game experience. (currently the only thing that comes close is T10 competitive level CV play.)

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[MORIA]
Weekend Tester
465 posts
16,433 battles
On 10.03.2018 at 8:49 AM, loppantorkel said:

Just saw the end of the Flamu video where he expresses a bit of frustration over the playerbase that in his eyes is getting worse - 'The average level of play has gotten significantly worse from a year ago'. Maybe it's the steam release, or maybe something else.

Agree with that.

I am playing with matchmaking monitor for a long time and probably many of you is doing that.

In most of games you can see players with less then 40% WR!!! and very low damage. Ok, matchmaking monitor shows stats  only for the ship is in battle but if you have time and want to check, you will notice that all his stats are the same if you check players stats.

And the problem is that those players, who was bad stats at low tier few months ago, now they have same bad stats at high tier because they finished the grind.

 

Ex: 2 days ago i was playing kamikaze in a tier 7 game on Two Brothers.  AONO div of 3 in enemy team. Game started, all team on one side, except a DD from my team who was deleted in 3 minutes after the game started, i couldn`t help him too much. On the other side, we lost 3 or 4 in same time. Game waas lost obviously. I turned from the side with dead DD and i pushed mid, in enemy base, starting to cap. Enemy team came back, i start to kill, running, etc. 5 kills, but at the end one of AONO div killed me till the end. Surprise: my team start to swear and insulting me on main chat "noob kamikaze, visa player, etc, while AONO complimented and start explain to my team that i carried the team close to a win. When game finished, i had 3 compliments and 3 reports.

This was to show that players don`t care if you play, they care that u died and you lost the game.

 

Like a conclusion: WG must implement at the beginning of the game a training, for each class. 4 short trainings for each class is not a big deal...

I still meet playes who call other player cheaters because they use hydro on german DDs.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[H_FAN]
Players
2,071 posts
25,873 battles
48 minutes ago, Mandyxx said:

Agree with that.

I am playing with matchmaking monitor for a long time and probably many of you is doing that.

In most of games you can see players with less then 40% WR!!! and very low damage. Ok, matchmaking monitor shows stats  only for the ship is in battle but if you have time and want to check, you will notice that all his stats are the same if you check players stats.

And the problem is that those players, who was bad stats at low tier few months ago, now they have same bad stats at high tier because they finished the grind.

 

Ex: 2 days ago i was playing kamikaze in a tier 7 game on Two Brothers.  AONO div of 3 in enemy team. Game started, all team on one side, except a DD from my team who was deleted in 3 minutes after the game started, i couldn`t help him too much. On the other side, we lost 3 or 4 in same time. Game waas lost obviously. I turned from the side with dead DD and i pushed mid, in enemy base, starting to cap. Enemy team came back, i start to kill, running, etc. 5 kills, but at the end one of AONO div killed me till the end. Surprise: my team start to swear and insulting me on main chat "noob kamikaze, visa player, etc, while AONO complimented and start explain to my team that i carried the team close to a win. When game finished, i had 3 compliments and 3 reports.

This was to show that players don`t care if you play, they care that u died and you lost the game.

 

Like a conclusion: WG must implement at the beginning of the game a training, for each class. 4 short trainings for each class is not a big deal...

I still meet playes who call other player cheaters because they use hydro on german DDs.

I want to adress a few issues:

 

You will not make a player good watching a few tutorials, in a game that needs lots of experience, as the experience gap does not let it close itself for a few hours of guides.

 

Who do you think will start to play a game that advertises itself - by the way to perform well against the veterans you need to watch our 20 guides of 1 hour sessions and then play 200 games in coop, before you play 1000 games up to t5 then 1000 more in T6-9 before ypu get to the Yamato or whatever you dream of , it will require you to play for 500 hours before you reach the top tier and you may be battered in chat a lot by the veterans.

 

Well a little harsh maybe, but there are lots of tutorials, even map tutorials both by WOWS and by others for those who wants it, problem is that it is a thin line between forcing people to them, those that are interested seems to pop up here anyway, I doubt that the 40%WR players will end up here in any large numbers.

 

But you have also a normal distribution curve, sometimes the number of players that seem to have sub 40% WR seem to be very large, but they are not that frequent, you may notice them and they might be that low in particular ships but not overall. Most hover around 50% by default and the numbers thin out rapidly below 40% overall WR and 60% +. 

 

Yes you meet a lot of potatoes but I who have played 15000 games + do not recall many players that call players cheaters becuse German hydro on DDs - can not remember one but it may have happened a few times anyway- aimbots etc are on the other hand relatively frequent

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DAVY]
[DAVY]
Moderator
1,478 posts
5,947 battles

In my opinion,

the decrease of the quality of the team-play and game-play has nothing to do with the game being more complex.

Actually it is the opposite. WG is trying to dumb down to the game, make it more simple, and this way a lot of windowlickers can have at least a little bit of fun and can grind through to the tier X

 

The problem is, If the game is harder, *edited* "Playing fpr PHUN!" guys.. will get bored and stop playing after grinding to the tier 4 or 5 tops..

But If you let them go broadside and gets unpunished in their mighty BB, then they will sail in straight lines and be torped by other windowlickers in DDs, after that you let them see the torps coming away from miles. then more and better windowlickers starts to have fun whatever idiotic behaviour they do in the battle...

 

If you want to increase the team and gameplay quality. You need to make the game harder and more complex.

But then you will loose players left and right. You will have a handful of really good players, having fun everyday with each other.

 

We can see it in wot.. I am playing that game for years.. 20K battles in it..

Wlickers cannot live long enough! BUFF THE ARMOR

wlickers cannot give damage! GIVE PREMIUM AMMO PENETRATION

Wlickers being hunted by light and med tanks flanking! MORE CORRIDOR AND CITY MAPS

wlickers cannot do damage! MAKE HIGH PEN HIGH ALPHA TDs TO HIDE! (yes I am looking at you borsig! and skorpion!)

 

Without going more into tanks..

dumbing down the game.. is never an answer...

 

you have to pick one of two from below..

 

1) good game experience: complex game, less players, more waiting times, may be you cannot have F2P

2) average / bad gaming experience: game dumbed down day by day, a lot of players, no waiting times, always F2P

Edited by Daxeno
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inappropriate remarks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[O-P-C]
Players
407 posts
8,833 battles

I think that in chasing profits and new lines coming all the time -they put themselves into corner , the dont fix old problems yet pile up new issues (expected and unexpected) because of the rush to expand player base and game ,meaning too little people on the particular task solving ,and making more and more problems overall...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×