Flamu's Discussion - WoWS: The Focus On Damage

[xScoundrelx]

It's a good video. It's worth watching.

 

 

 

[loppantorkel]

It is a good video. Get on with it WG

[Nechrom]

Yup, I saw it yesterday and I completely agree with his sentiment.

[BarthalomewKuma]

As much as I value flamu , some of his points are very flawed. I agree with most , but it's already stupidly easy to top score in dd without doing anything worth mentioning. 

 

Fundamental problem with bbs not wanting to push into caps is reset mechanic.

 

Anyone who knows how capping works in for example total war arena knows ... the difference. Even attempt to cap and just trying to seize base gives massive REWARDS to player.

 

In WoWs lets say ... such bb comes to cap - and it will get farmed for defense ribbons by opponent and even if it caps with help of allies on end game screen his capture points will be something like 2/120 3/120 - trully REWARDING.

 

I disagree as someone who can play dd and on many occassions i had unicum and more standing for my gameplay in dd - that mechanics favour bbs in current meta. Not true.

 

Actually quiet opposite BBs are not rewarded for tanking that much , they are neither rewarded for capping for above reason - so there is no reason for them to close in !!

Therefore flamu ideas to give them pretty ribbons for tanking is completely irrelevant. He can have his ribbons, I want real rewards like credits and xp if I'm going to bleed for bunch of randoms.

 

Another flawed argument he used is to reward for proper use of radar - while i agree it's problem - it raises yet another problem - what about ships like hindenburg/zao/henri etc that DO  NOT HAVE ACCESS to radar consumable.

Des moines and moskva (maybe mino too) will reap bigger rewards when mentioned ships won't be able to get as big game rewards again.

 

Pro tip how to top score in game as dd with mere 40-50k damage, get into cap spot enemy dd cross fingers your team pounds him hard , bait him into shooting you then smoke up and farm him up - it's just and example, then proceed to next cap. Get  like 2 full caps deal some pitiful damage and bammmm top 1 ... done this so many times that i lost count.

 

If you can't get consistently top 1 spot in game with dd you are doing something wrong.

 

Now to do so in bb you need to actually be able to aim and position yourself not like total idiot. Because forget easy massive xp rewards for capping .

 

Now I have other suggestions - if BB gets into cap (who would think someone not camp but comes to cap in BB !!??) then he should cap 3x faster than DD and cruiser cap 2x faster. Reward those in easily spotted ships for capping aswell. The game is not only about dds ! Also maybe use Total war arena system - that even attempt to play around objective aka contesting cap will give you money and xp aswell - becaue even if you fail - you tried to do the PROPER thing aka get your objectives.

As it is now if you don't fully cap you get no rewards, heck evne if you cap - you get no rewards because you were reset so many times that your contribution is close to 0 ...

 

Give me reason to close in ... then i will (actually i charge anyway but would be cool to get rewards ;))

[Covinus]

Agreed..

[AnotherDuck]

25 minutes ago, BarthalomewKuma said:

If you can't get consistently top 1 spot in game with dd you are doing something wrong.

No, it means you're an average player. And your description of how to do it is basically, "outplay a decent portion of the enemy team". You follow that up with saying that "aiming and positioning yourself not like a total idiot" in a BB is harder than that. No.

 

Anyway, I definitely agree with the overall notion that non-damage-centric tasks should be more rewarded. Giving rewards for attempting to cap would be one of those. Showing the rest of the tram who caps would also help. Tanking rewards for potential damage should've been implemented the moment they started showing that stat. Spotting damage should be displayed like normal damage.

[TheFierceRabbit]

Not keen on Flamu at all, so not going to watch the video. From the comments in this thread, two things I would like to see implemented:

• Visible rewards for spottng damage
• Visible rewards for tanking damage

As a predominant DD player, I would say that a lot of cruisers and bb's do hang at the back with the exception of those with radar. Cruisers with radar tend to advance and hide behind islands which spotting damage would encourage further. And those BB's with radar who do advance, like the Missouri, would continue to do the same thing they do: move to the cap, turn on their radar and then reverse back to where they started until their radar is off cool down, thus encouraging that gameplay further.

[loppantorkel]

4 minutes ago, TigerMoth said:

Not keen on Flamu at all, so not going to watch the video. From the comments in this thread, two things I would like to see implemented:

The gist of it is that more instant, visible encouragements are given in battle for other things than damage dealing. You should be given more distinct encouragements for helping the team, for you and the team to see. Everyone see when you get a Kraken, but something for taking 3 million potential damage or capping 3 caps could have some special ribbon too. You can see at the scoreboard after the battle that someone did good, but seeing it in battle probably would encourage teamwork and positive feedback from team members. It's a good idea imo.

[philjd]

1 hour ago, BarthalomewKuma said:

Pro tip how to top score in game as dd with mere 40-50k damage, get into cap spot enemy dd cross fingers your team pounds him hard , bait him into shooting you then smoke up and farm him up - it's just and example, then proceed to next cap. Get  like 2 full caps deal some pitiful damage and bammmm top 1 ... done this so many times that i lost count.

Isn't that actually fulfilling the role of a DD perfectly though.. take cap, kill other DD's... with secondary role of damaging other red ships. 40k damage done to red DD's is worth an awful lot more than 40k damage done to BB's and much more useful in helping the team to win.

So if you perform your role perfectly, why shouldn't you be rewarded appropriately.

[Infiriel]

1 godzinę temu, BarthalomewKuma napisał:

Pro tip how to top score in game as dd with mere 40-50k damage, get into cap spot enemy dd cross fingers your team pounds him hard , bait him into shooting you then smoke up and farm him up - it's just and example, then proceed to next cap. Get  like 2 full caps deal some pitiful damage and bammmm top 1 ... done this so many times that i lost count.

And you assume said DD won`t spot you back, and murderize you along with his allies? Or smoke himself up?

 

31 minut temu, loppantorkel napisał:

The gist of it is that more instant, visible encouragements are given in battle for other things than damage dealing. You should be given more distinct encouragements for helping the team, for you and the team to see. Everyone see when you get a Kraken, but something for taking 3 million potential damage or capping 3 caps could have some special ribbon too. You can see at the scoreboard after the battle that someone did good, but seeing it in battle probably would encourage teamwork and positive feedback from team members. It's a good idea imo.

This
It`s one of Flamu`s videos i agree with (Unlike e.g. Asashio assesment), and i`m still wondering why such achievments aren`t a thing in this game.
Technically "Clear Sky" is one of those "supportive" achievments done right,  but good luck getting it against any decent CV player.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

2 hours ago, xScoundrelx said:

It's a good video. It's worth watching.

 

 

I manage to watch it yesterday and I agree with most of the things he said!

 

I especially also dislike the current model where player has no feedback regarding almost everything except the damage...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Phlogistoned]

Agree with the ideas he puts forward, and I was something of an eye opener for me.

 

I have already suggested and/or agreed with various suggestions for rewarding tanking and such, but I hadn't seen the big picture - I.e. how damage (dev. strike for example) is rewarded immediately, and tanking damage (f.ex. fireproof) is rewarded after the game.

 

Immediate encouragement for dealing damage versus disconnected encouragement for taking damage. As a long time UI designer, I'm a bit embarrassed I didn't make the connection earlier.

[BarthalomewKuma]

13 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

And you assume said DD won`t spot you back, and murderize you along with his allies? Or smoke himself up?

 

This
It`s one of Flamu`s videos i agree with (Unlike e.g. Asashio assesment), and i`m still wondering why such achievments aren`t a thing in this game.
Technically "Clear Sky" is one of those "supportive" achievments done right,  but good luck getting it against any decent CV player.

No they don't i play this game.

[CleverViking]

I agree with most of Flamus points, but I think most of these should've been implemented months ago rather than churning out new lines or at the very least with the same priority.

 

Stuff like getting xp/ribbons for spotting torps or spotting in general would guide new DD players into how to fulfill their role. This would work much better than some tutorials or a couple of tips on the loading screen that nobody reads. It's so annoying when your only DD smokes up and starts farming BBs when a friendly BB right beside him is in the process of getting bu**f***ed by an enemy DD (which happened yesterday when a Farragut thought it a great idea to farm a Tirpitz rather than scout the enemy DD in our cap).

 

It would also add some fun with other ribbons to "aim for" while trying to win a match. 

 

Along with these changes I think Clear Sky should be modified, I've never gotten it myself and I've only ever seen anyone getting it once. 

[Phlogistoned]

@BartholomewKuma: You are missing the point, and are de-railing the thread.

 

The point is not how easy it is to get top-of-the-team.

 

The point is that all damage-related rewards are visibly handed out *immediately*, while the 'tanking' rewards are handed out after the battle.

 

This violates the feedback principle of user interface design; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_user_interface_design

[Nechrom]

1 hour ago, BarthalomewKuma said:

As much as I value flamu , some of his points are very flawed. I agree with most , but it's already stupidly easy to top score in dd without doing anything worth mentioning. 

 

Fundamental problem with bbs not wanting to push into caps is reset mechanic.

 

Anyone who knows how capping works in for example total war arena knows ... the difference. Even attempt to cap and just trying to seize base gives massive REWARDS to player.

 

In WoWs lets say ... such bb comes to cap - and it will get farmed for defense ribbons by opponent and even if it caps with help of allies on end game screen his capture points will be something like 2/120 3/120 - trully REWARDING.

 

I disagree as someone who can play dd and on many occassions i had unicum and more standing for my gameplay in dd - that mechanics favour bbs in current meta. Not true.

 

Actually quiet opposite BBs are not rewarded for tanking that much , they are neither rewarded for capping for above reason - so there is no reason for them to close in !!

Therefore flamu ideas to give them pretty ribbons for tanking is completely irrelevant. He can have his ribbons, I want real rewards like credits and xp if I'm going to bleed for bunch of randoms.

 

Another flawed argument he used is to reward for proper use of radar - while i agree it's problem - it raises yet another problem - what about ships like hindenburg/zao/henri etc that DO  NOT HAVE ACCESS to radar consumable.

Des moines and moskva (maybe mino too) will reap bigger rewards when mentioned ships won't be able to get as big game rewards again.

 

Pro tip how to top score in game as dd with mere 40-50k damage, get into cap spot enemy dd cross fingers your team pounds him hard , bait him into shooting you then smoke up and farm him up - it's just and example, then proceed to next cap. Get  like 2 full caps deal some pitiful damage and bammmm top 1 ... done this so many times that i lost count.

 

If you can't get consistently top 1 spot in game with dd you are doing something wrong.

 

Now to do so in bb you need to actually be able to aim and position yourself not like total idiot. Because forget easy massive xp rewards for capping .

 

Now I have other suggestions - if BB gets into cap (who would think someone not camp but comes to cap in BB !!??) then he should cap 3x faster than DD and cruiser cap 2x faster. Reward those in easily spotted ships for capping aswell. The game is not only about dds ! Also maybe use Total war arena system - that even attempt to play around objective aka contesting cap will give you money and xp aswell - becaue even if you fail - you tried to do the PROPER thing aka get your objectives.

As it is now if you don't fully cap you get no rewards, heck evne if you cap - you get no rewards because you were reset so many times that your contribution is close to 0 ...

 

Give me reason to close in ... then i will (actually i charge anyway but would be cool to get rewards ;))

You missed the entire point Flamu was making. Did you actually watch the video?

 

Most good players will already know what gives rewards and what contributes towards victory.

But for players who for whatever reason hasn't figured this out there is almost nothing indicating to them that spotting, tanking, capping and resetting caps are things they should do. Meanwhile there are tons of awards and direct feedback that tells them that doing damage is a good thing.

 

While I would love to get actual rewards for more actions contributing towards a victory, Flamu is talking more about pushing the majority of uninformed players towards doing those things in the first place. They don't know what actually gives them any rewards so changing the rewards distribution wouldn't affect their playstyle unless you also started rolling out achievements and ribbons for those things at the same time.

 

The video isn't supposed to be a final draft to be immediately implemented into the game tomorrow, no need to pick out tiny possible issues like radar ships getting better rewards. That is by the way already a huge part of the game. Ships aren't balanced against each other when it comes to rewards. DDs who are good at capping and fighting other DDs get more rewards than those specializing in fighting BBs. Practically any ship whose niche is fighting BBs will get worse rewards.

[BarthalomewKuma]

1 minute ago, Phlogistoned said:

@BartholomewKuma: You are missing the point, and are de-railing the thread.

 

The point is not how easy it is to get top-of-the-team.

 

The point is that all damage-related rewards are visibly handed out *immediately*, while the 'tanking' rewards are handed out after the battle.

 

This violates the feedback principle of user interface design; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_user_interface_design

But here you are wrong - topic is about how to top scoreboard.

 

And I disagree - it's not all about damage. Take 3 caps , deal 0 damage you are still good trust me ...

 

Until that is fixed that as bb/ca you can't reliably get such rewards other stuff is irrelevant.

 

DD life is easy and trust me i did play my share of dd games !! Heck my stats show that from all ships i play DD best , not BB or CA.

 

DD is just joke easy. All you have to do is get to cap and dont die like pleb to first torp volley and on higher tiers only extra thing is to watch minimap for possible radar cruisers in area. No rocket science.

 

So he is wrong in that regard - it's not just about damage i often had 700k credits game in non premium ship like fletcher without flags/camo just premium account and i didnt deal that much damage in first place. I just zoned caps. And I was rewarded .

 

Sadly Flamu thinks BBs job is only to soak damage and act as target practice... it should be more than that. 

 

BBs/CAs should be rewarded for contesting , even if they dont capture in the end. For effort to do right thing. Any other solution is plain wrong - and won't improve situation. I need be able to get my cap rewards not just act as fire support. 

 

My ideas about about bigger ships capping faster and getting rewards for contesting is good. I don't see drawbacks. But please show me if there are any (not coocky actually im curious maybe i missed something)

[CleverViking]

9 minutes ago, BarthalomewKuma said:

But here you are wrong - topic is about how to top scoreboard.

 

No, it is not. Rewatch (or watch if you haven't in the first place) the video. Flamu planely says that he's ----> OK with rewards like flags, exp etc. being largely unchanged <--- but that ribbons and medals can be used as a ---->  guide to show new players that doing something like spotting is a good thing <--- many new DD players don't know that they should spot, to be frank most new players don't know anything but how to steer the ship and click LMB. Giving them some indication that playing for the team is beneficial is surely a good thing?

 

I took the liberty of highligthing some key points since you obviosuly can't be bothered to read what others write to you.

[BruceRKF]

Actually, I believe that doing no damage and only capping (same as shooting down planes) will reward you nothing and only acts as an xp modifier. At least from my experience: solo-capped in my DD at the start of the match, then got deleted by a lucky torpedo thrown into the cap - zero xp. Got disconnected in my Hipper - carrier deleted me right when I loaded back into the game. Three planes shot down, but zero xp as well. Also something that probably should be adressed. And potential damage seems to gain only very minor xp and credits, since I had a game once in my Roon where I was focused quite a bit. Was only able to do about 70k damage, mostly on BBs, so not worth much, but tanked close to 3 Million - Still landed far down in the scoreboard.

 

I agree with the assessment however, that other things than dealing damage or hitting stuff should be visibly rewarded with ribbons, so you know that you are contributing. Playing the objective is what ultimately gets you the win and therefore more xp and credits than just racking up damage.

[ForceM1782]

1 hour ago, TigerMoth said:

Not keen on Flamu at all, so not going to watch the video. From the comments in this thread, two things I would like to see implemented:

• Visible rewards for spottng damage
• Visible rewards for tanking damage

As a predominant DD player, I would say that a lot of cruisers and bb's do hang at the back with the exception of those with radar. Cruisers with radar tend to advance and hide behind islands which spotting damage would encourage further. And those BB's with radar who do advance, like the Missouri, would continue to do the same thing they do: move to the cap, turn on their radar and then reverse back to where they started until their radar is off cool down, thus encouraging that gameplay further.

Well, there are no BBs like the Missouri. She is the only one with radar, as far as i know. There are some with Hydros, but not with radar. And she has been removed, so newer players won’t ever get her either...

Therefore encouraging that style of gameplay would only apply to the Missouri, unless we include german BB Hydro in which case we have more BBs suited for capping.

[BarthalomewKuma]

6 minutes ago, CleverViking said:

No, it is not. Rewatch (or watch if you haven't in the first place) the video. Flamu planely says that he's ----> OK with rewards like flags, exp etc. being largely unchanged <--- but that ribbons and medals can be used as a ---->  guide to show new players that doing something like spotting is a good thing <--- many new DD players don't know that they should spot, to be frank most new players don't know anything but how to steer the ship and click LMB. Giving them some indication that playing for the team is beneficial is surely a good thing?

 

I took the liberty of highligthing some key points since you obviosuly can't be bothered to read what others write to you.

No it is ... it is ! The higher you are on scoreboard the better rewards you get ... really. More free xp,more commander xp, more xp , more credits.

 

And right now damage is prelevant for CERTAIN classes like bbs/cas/carriers. But not for destroyers.

 

I really fear what will happen if we would implement his ideas without consideration that there is already class heavily rewarded even if it doesn't deal damage. Because lets remember his point was that its all about big damage numbers.

Now it's not for destroyers - yes i play them , i play bbs i play cas ... i don't play CVs much thats it.

 

End result will be that already well rewarded class destroyers will get even bigger rewards.

 

And btw no hate speech against dds i like to play dd myself. But for sake of balance we need to give BBs other way to earn thier money/xp beside just soaking damage ... thats really not convincing ...

[CleverViking]

1 minute ago, BarthalomewKuma said:

No it is ... it is ! The higher you are on scoreboard the better rewards you get ... really. More free xp,more commander xp, more xp , more credits.

Dude, the point I'm trying to make is that it is NOT about xp or the position on the scoreboard only visual feedback, like ribbons or spotting damage showing up along with damage so people can see that doing something else than damage is beneficial. No xp modifiers need to be touched, the only thing he asks for is ribbons and achievments i.e. visual feedback showing that stuff like tanking and spotting is positive.

 

I don't really want WG to do any massive changes to xp modifiers myself, only give some visual aid to new players so they know that spotting for your team actually is rewarded.

 

XP isn't even part of the main point Flamu is trying to make

[GulvkluderGuld]

11 minutes ago, BarthalomewKuma said:

No it is ... it is ! The higher you are on scoreboard the better rewards you get ... really. More free xp,more commander xp, more xp , more credits.

 

And right now damage is prelevant for CERTAIN classes like bbs/cas/carriers. But not for destroyers.

 

I really fear what will happen if we would implement his ideas without consideration that there is already class heavily rewarded even if it doesn't deal damage. Because lets remember his point was that its all about big damage numbers.

Now it's not for destroyers - yes i play them , i play bbs i play cas ... i don't play CVs much thats it.

 

End result will be that already well rewarded class destroyers will get even bigger rewards.

 

And btw no hate speech against dds i like to play dd myself. But for sake of balance we need to give BBs other way to earn thier money/xp beside just soaking damage ... thats really not convincing ...

 

It is not.

Topping the scoreboard and earning visible rewards in the game for doing the right things are different. 

You can adjust the xp scoring of dds downward as you propose without giving out out any visible rewards.

It is also possible to hand out loads of visible medals for small tasks that only give a litte xp, and thus it is necessary to farm a lot of them to top the scoreboard.

[ForceM1782]

4 hours ago, BarthalomewKuma said:

No it is ... it is ! The higher you are on scoreboard the better rewards you get ... really. More free xp,more commander xp, more xp , more credits.

 

And right now damage is prelevant for CERTAIN classes like bbs/cas/carriers. But not for destroyers.

 

I really fear what will happen if we would implement his ideas without consideration that there is already class heavily rewarded even if it doesn't deal damage. Because lets remember his point was that its all about big damage numbers.

Now it's not for destroyers - yes i play them , i play bbs i play cas ... i don't play CVs much thats it.

 

End result will be that already well rewarded class destroyers will get even bigger rewards.

 

And btw no hate speech against dds i like to play dd myself. But for sake of balance we need to give BBs other way to earn thier money/xp beside just soaking damage ... thats really not convincing ...

BBs have another way of scoring than being a huge piñata, which is causing damage.

 

The problem i see is that the best way of tanking damage and causing it, is doing it in small doses, in skirmishes. If you advance to a cap, what will happen is that a 5 or 6 will constantly pop up in your priority warning, and you will get torped to boot!

 

No matter how good you angle or know your BB. This kind of focus will kill you really fast. And i don’t really see a way to change that, it lies in the nature of the game really.

 

So it’s nearly always better to hold back in a BB, cause more damage over a long game and tank more over time than you ever could while charging into a cap. At least you need a plan of disengaging, and that’s also difficult since you tend to get sucked in into battle once you do get a bit closer in a BB. The moment you turn away you show broadside and if any other BB still shoots AP you will get punished for doing it.

 

o mostly agree with Flamu concerning visible rewards for tanking and capping. But honestly, i could never understand the useless BB critique he has going every vid. If you, as a BB with no other trick but beefiness up your sleeve go charging in, unless your enemy has been thinned out a lot, you will die and accomplish nothing! You have to see the opportune moment to do so, but pushing right away, unless on a secluded flank ina concerted push, you die, end of story!

[SeaWolf7]

Perhaps getting rid of damage counter or ad least making it less noticeable (eg make ribbons visually a priority over damage counter) would help too.

 

How can the average player/below average player improve their understanding of the game  When the damage counter at top right of screen  is nearly always the thing you focus on. Greater damage = mentally "ohhh im having a better game" whilst simultaneously completely ignoring the objective that's going on around them. so yeah I think the video gives a good argument.

If you cant educate players because they choose to skip tutorials the game needs to Visually steer you in the right direction. So a better indication of what your doing right has never been a big focus on this game and that needs to change.

 

 

29 minutes ago, BarthalomewKuma said:

 

 

And right now damage is prelevant for CERTAIN classes like bbs/cas/carriers. But not for destroyers.

 

I really fear what will happen if we would implement his ideas without consideration that there is already class heavily rewarded even if it doesn't deal damage. Because lets remember his point was that its all about big damage numbers.

Now it's not for destroyers

 

 

 

 

which is ironic since each topedo strike gives one of the highest amount of damage in the game not to mention damage racked up by a good salvo and active flooding.

So DD's already have the capability to rack up huge Damage numbers.