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dreddwales

Surface Radar

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On 12.03.2018 г. at 5:10 PM, AnotherDuck said:

So the Japanese, German, and French cruisers are crap at T8+?

Against DDs and for pushing caps (in Tier VIII+):

IJN and French cruisers - dedicated long-range HE spammers. Useing them for a brawl is not advisable.

German cruisers - only effective in mid to short ranges(brawl) when hydro is active. Yeah they have cruiser version of turtle-back armor, but they tend to suffer a lot of random penetracion dmg and have slow rudder + big turning circle.

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On 13/03/2018 at 1:00 PM, Excavatus said:

you seem to present your ideas on the extereme sides.. like,

You seem to suffer from confirmation bias.

 

On 13/03/2018 at 4:50 PM, BuccaneerBill said:

Lot's of stupid things, like how are destroyers invisible up to 6km, cloak? Just accept it how the game works and move on.

If you don't even try to understand what I'm saying, why are you responding? Are you not understanding that you're not understanding, perhaps?

 

On 13/03/2018 at 5:23 PM, OTECa1 said:

Against DDs and for pushing caps (in Tier VIII+):

IJN and French cruisers - dedicated long-range HE spammers. Useing them for a brawl is not advisable.

German cruisers - only effective in mid to short ranges(brawl) when hydro is active. Yeah they have cruiser version of turtle-back armor, but they tend to suffer a lot of random penetracion dmg and have slow rudder + big turning circle.

Are you still saying those cruisers don't get better at higher tiers? That they just remain at the same strength they were before?

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On 07/03/2018 at 9:40 PM, dreddwales said:

Hello, 

Before I give up on this mostly enjoyable game ....... will the developers ever do anything about Surface Radar working through land masses??

You can hide in smoke quite well. You can hide behind land masses quite well and this makes playing as DD enjoyable but add in Radar and its pointless? You can spend time pushing and find your self spotted through a billion tonnes of rock?

Line of sight works quite well with regards to general detection and again, also in smoke ....... why cant the same principles be added to Radar??

Radar should be for spotting those in smoke or those with a smaller detection radius, where they can spot you but you cant' see them!!

 

Please say this will be addressed ..... or ..... sniff's ...... I'll cut my investment in the game and take my leave :(

If they were going to make Radar 'Realistic'  It has a MASSIVE spotting range far greater than the traditional LoS and is far more accurate to in terms of targetting over distance.

 

So what you seem to be looking for is Realistic Radar where you can be spotted (and remember it doesnt switch off in reality unless damaged) from any distance (over unrealistic Radar where the range and duration are unrealistic but traded off against magically looking through rocks.) 

 

Its a sacrifice to Gameplay - as are most things - Live with it. or take your leave and play a 'SImulation'

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On 8-3-2018 at 6:47 AM, AnotherDuck said:

But others can. It's stupid, and it should be fixed. Preferably by removing radar entirely. Would make for a better game.

as a dd-player myself I think there has to be some way for cruisers to fight-back against dd's. Radar as a tool, ok, np with me. Kind of knife-fighting between dd's and radar-cruisers (cat & mouse lol). However, maybe balancing bit better is required: 12 kms radar is realy immense range (!) and radar lasting 35 secs is a very long active-time. Maybe look at radar-range + radar-active-time to get better balance and better battles. Nowadays I see too much radar-cruisers 12kms covering 2x cap same time..tic-tac-tic-tac...no real counterplay possible as a result of which battles end very, very soon in those cases. so balancing in order here? maybe, lets wait and see. Give it time.

 

Anyway, in general imo radar is a good tool for the battles(!!): otherwise dd's would have it tooooooo easy torping defenseless battleships etc. We dont want that either.

 

Again, imo, balancing takes time. Constructive input helps. Eventually it will all be balanced well. I do not doubt that. It only takes time to accomplish such (just as all achievements in rl, nothing new here):cap_popcorn:

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36 minutes ago, Yaskaraxx said:

as a dd-player myself I think there has to be some way for cruisers to fight-back against dd's

What stops cruisers fighting DD's is the BB heavy meta that turns them into XP pinata unless they do anything but long range he spam.

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2 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

What stops cruisers fighting DD's is the BB heavy meta that turns them into XP pinata unless they do anything but long range he spam.

 

Exactly this.

 

As a mostly DD and Cruiser player (I have BB's to T10, but I'm not fond of the gameplay) the reason cruisers struggle to take on DD's is the very real risk of deletion by BB unless there's a suitable island to camp and on higher tier maps that's not common. With typically 5 BB's per side angling is very difficult ranging to impossible due to crossfire.

 

There's nothing critically wrong with the current radar mechanics, while they're not realistic, as has been pointed out this isn't a simulator game, not even partially.

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5 hours ago, Capra76 said:

What stops cruisers fighting DD's is the BB heavy meta that turns them into XP pinata unless they do anything but long range he spam.

That's my line of thinking as well. The idea of radar giving cruisers a weapon isn't bad in theory, but it ends up shooting themselves in the foot, since what it's the most effective against at is reducing the threat BBs face.

 

6 hours ago, Yaskaraxx said:

as a dd-player myself I think there has to be some way for cruisers to fight-back against dd's.

They already have tools like that.

 

6 hours ago, Yaskaraxx said:

Anyway, in general imo radar is a good tool for the battles(!!): otherwise dd's would have it tooooooo easy torping defenseless battleships etc. We dont want that either.

We do want that. The problems cruisers have is that battleships can sail as they want, in large part because of radars. The main balance problem of the game is first CVs, because they're broken any way you cut it, and the second balance problem is too many battleships. They already have it too easy, and they don't need it easier.

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1 hour ago, AnotherDuck said:

That's my line of thinking as well. The idea of radar giving cruisers a weapon isn't bad in theory, but it ends up shooting themselves in the foot, since what it's the most effective against at is reducing the threat BBs face.

:fish_palm:

1 hour ago, AnotherDuck said:

They already have tools like that.

Yeah it's called Radar:cap_old:

you seem to present your ideas on the extereme sides.. like,

You seem to suffer from confirmation bias.

Funny coming from you :cap_wander:

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3 hours ago, OTECa1 said:

:fish_palm:

:cap_old:

:cap_wander:

When you have nothing intelligent to say and just want to insult someone, just spam emoticons and pretend that's clever in any way whatsoever.

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As a DD player I welcome radar as it make playing a DD more of a challenge but surely it must be accurate.. My only gripe is that being set stationary ready to ambush a GK the other day a DM also behind the GK flicks radar and I am detected...:Smile-angry: He is at a point where the island is directly between him and me... Result is that I have have to leave my ambush position and I am a target for every enemy ship close by... I lose 2/3rds of my full health before reaching a point beyond radar range..with DM sat hugging the damn rocks again out of line of sight... I did get my GK kill but not in the manner planned. I know it's a game, I know the realism is limited but fair play surely?

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5 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

We do want that. The problems cruisers have is that battleships can sail as they want, in large part because of radars. The main balance problem of the game is first CVs, because they're broken any way you cut it, and the second balance problem is too many battleships. They already have it too easy, and they don't need it easier.

No we don't. You do.

BB overpopulation is indeed a problem, but I don't want to remove radar to try solving this issue. That would result in another plague, most likely the DD overpopulation, without any absolute certainty that it would efficiently decrease the BB problem. The easiest solution is nerfing BBs directly, like making them more vulnerable to citadel damage. Don't link everything to the radar, that's just ridiculous.

What don't you understand in the sentence "radar is a part of the current balance"?

You can stop your anti-radar crusade, WG will never remove that consumable.

The fact that it goes through island is another matter, which could be adressed though.

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Radar is almost always not as big of a problem as a lot of people make it out to be. The only situation where it becomes a real threat and really scary is when a cruiser sneaks up from behind cover and thus dramatically closes the distance. Punishing that guy for a good play and an awareness mistake on your part is the wrong way to go. 

 

Of all the radar cruisers Moskva is the most scary, not because of its radar range per se, but due to its shell velocity. A good player will hit you from 10km. I'd still wager I could spend an entire duration near desmos max radar range and the guy would be unlikely to kill me at that range. Without radar dds would flat out dominate way too much and would become its own bane, as the z-52 Would just murderdeathkill anything within its range without counter. 

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3 hours ago, elblancogringo said:

What don't you understand in the sentence "radar is a part of the current balance"?

 

Balanced in what way?

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1 hour ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Radar is almost always not as big of a problem as a lot of people make it out to be.

 

So radar seeing through Islands is okay in your opinion and is fair?

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32 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

So radar seeing through Islands is okay in your opinion and is fair?

Yep as there are so many Islands.

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10 minutes ago, BuccaneerBill said:

Yep as there are so many Islands.

Mmmm.. you're just one of those self opinionated biased BB/CE captains aren't you :Smile_sceptic:...sigh.. lol (jk).

 

But seriously, radar makes DD play more of a challenge, I love my DD's and the challenge radar brings but make it right and allow islands to block the waves... It's all about the waves y'know.

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No cause cruisers tend to have to go behind islands in order to use radar effectively, or they get deleted.  Would seriously screw the radar cruisers over.  Except the Missouri ofc, which should never have radar.

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6 minutes ago, BuccaneerBill said:

No cause cruisers tend to have to go behind islands in order to use radar effectively, or they get deleted.  Would seriously screw the radar cruisers over.  Except the Missouri ofc, which should never have radar.

Okay, maybe that's true, but should their radar be capable of seeing through an island? I have no problem with radar... but being in ambush as DD and then being spotted by radar from behind an island isn't right in my opinion.

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Predicting the radar is part of DD play I guess.  I actually prefer being able to hydro, radar or just passive spot through Islands, enables more dynamic, attacking tactics.

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7 hours ago, elblancogringo said:

No we don't. You do.

There are more people than me who want that. "We" is completely correct. And pointing out that word choice is at best pedantic.

 

7 hours ago, elblancogringo said:

Don't link everything to the radar, that's just ridiculous.

Yes it is, but I've not done that. Interpreting what I said as linking everything to radar is just ridiculous.

 

7 hours ago, elblancogringo said:

What don't you understand in the sentence "radar is a part of the current balance"?

What don't you understand in the sentence, "I think it's stupid and should git gone from the game"?

 

Besides, if "x is part of the current balance" is a valid argument, then you can apply that to any suggestion or complaint about anything that exists in the game, regardless of how stupid it is. If that's the argument you want to use, you should be opposed to any and all changes and additions to the game. If you're not, you're using an argument you don't actually believe in, which is hypocritic.

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11 hours ago, elblancogringo said:

BB overpopulation is indeed a problem, but I don't want to remove radar to try solving this issue. That would result in another plague, most likely the DD overpopulation, without any absolute certainty that it would efficiently decrease the BB problem. The easiest solution is nerfing BBs directly, like making them more vulnerable to citadel damage.

That would no more certainly result in another plague than it would efficiently decrease the BB problem.

 

I don't think making BBs more vulnerable is actually the best solution. And WG clearly thinks that's a bad idea since the latest patch made it easier to citadel BBs and WG responded to that by quickly declaring it a bug and immediately announcing they were working on fixing that. The best solution would probably me more in line with not allowing BBs to delete cruisers or DDs as easily as they can now, especially at long ranges. If there were less instant deletions from BBs in the game then more players could join in on the fun part of the battles, which is where you aren't trying to shoot as far as possible (not counting RU DDs).

 

11 hours ago, elblancogringo said:

The fact that it goes through island is another matter, which could be adressed though.

Radar going through islands is bad. I'd also suggest using radar should also make your ship visible to anyone within radar range since having radar gather very crucial at the same time as it is a giant "I'm here!" sign is a balance feature that's been used successfully in many games where stealth is important. I don't see why it couldn't work well here.

 

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1 hour ago, Runegrem said:

Radar going through islands is bad. I'd also suggest using radar should also make your ship visible to anyone within radar range since having radar gather very crucial at the same time as it is a giant "I'm here!" sign is a balance feature that's been used successfully in many games where stealth is important. I don't see why it couldn't work well here.

 

 

It couldn't work here because of the extremely fragile nature of the Radar ships (excluding Missouri obviously) as T7-10 BB's which are in a massive abundance, one could easily state vastly overpopulated, can and do delete radar cruisers consistently.

 

There's a reason that many games with the default 5 BB's also have 3-5 DD's and that's because cruiser play is downright punishing so people that can't face playing BB's swap from their cruisers to DD's, I certainly did largely for that reason. 

 

We see in Clan Battles where there's max 1 BB (some teams don't bring one) , dynamic fights happening with pushing at caps and brawls at relatively short ranges, this is fun, but ONLY possible as there aren't many BB's deleting the cruisers and DD's (yes BB AP is superb at blasting DD's out of the water as has been demonstrated many times and is even a bug that's very long standing, unlike the BB citadel issue that's taken about a week to address).

 

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the radar mechanics, they are relatively short range, not massive duration (max 56s on Des Moines with Radar upgrade fitted) and have a sizable cooldown. As a DD player it can be a pain, but it's a risk that can be mitigated, the biggest risk is a BB with his guns pointed your way and not reloading when caught in a radar.

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1 hour ago, BeauNidl3 said:

...There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the radar mechanics...

I would argue otherwise, as the rational for there introduction, how they were implemented, and the results to game play are fundamentally flawed.

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8 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

I would argue otherwise, as the rational for there introduction, how they were implemented, and the results to game play are fundamentally flawed.

 

There? Where?

 

The fact is the game HAS radars, many ships are balanced around radar existing and the results to gameplay make the few cruisers remaining worth playing as at least they can contribute a bit more than being XP pinatas.

As someone that plays DD's a lot radar isn't impossible to deal with, it's inconvenient and can be fatal, but it's not game breaking, not by a long margin.

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