BBs that outspot cruisers

[wilkatis_LV]

Obviously BBs outspotting cruisers isn't anything new (as evidenced by the fact that NC has that same 11.8km detection as Conq), decided to make a list of all BBs which outspot cruisers that they can meet in their games, I mean - how many there could be, right? 39. That's how many

 

All the comparisons are at max concealment or those ships, so with camo (if applicable), with concealment expert skill, as well as concealment module (if applicable)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MMASK]

Nobody outspots Fuso!!!

[IanH755]

Thats some very good work there but the real shame is that WG will do nothing about it, because they are so utterly lost on how to balance something as simple as "Big BB should have bigger detection than smaller CA/CL" - I mean that "MUST" be impossible to balance, right??????

[piritskenyer]

Good work! You sometimes surprise me @wilkatis_LV, I must say. 

 

Perhaps this could be fixed by reversing the percentage of the bonus in the CE skill, to give 14% to cruisers and 12% to battleships. Would need some testing though. 

[lameoll]

21 minutes ago, MMASK said:

Nobody outspots Fuso!!!

NOOO dont tell WG that 

[Major_Damage225]

21 minutes ago, MMASK said:

Nobody outspots Fuso!!!

Or Nagato 

[Prospect_b]

It is ridiculous at the moment. Something along piritskenyer idea would be a start, though with higher difference.

 

Also, I don't see roon or hipper, they get outspotted by bb all the time.

[wilkatis_LV]

6 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

Good work! You sometimes surprise me @wilkatis_LV, I must say. 

 

Perhaps this could be fixed by reversing the percentage of the bonus in the CE skill, to give 14% to cruisers and 12% to battleships. Would need some testing though. 

In almost every case it's straight up "outspot at any level of concealment" thing, very rarely (like GK and Moskva) it comes down to BB can outspot CA bcuz of those 2% extra

 

4 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

Also, I don't see roon or hipper, they get outspotted by bb all the time.

Hipper goes down to 10.92 (so it's 0.03 better than Monarch)

Roon's at 11.06 - so you can see it in Monarchs list (next closest - Roma with 11.22 - is already above it).

 

So no, they actually don't.

[Prospect_b]

3 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Hipper goes down to 10.92 (so it's 0.03 better than Monarch)

Roon's at 11.06 - so you can see it in Monarchs list (next closest - Roma with 11.22 - is already above it).

 

So no, they actually don

My bad

 

Plenty of time to turn away once they are spotted. Lucky cruisers...

[wilkatis_LV]

17 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

Perhaps this could be fixed by reversing the percentage of the bonus in the CE skill, to give 14% to cruisers and 12% to battleships. Would need some testing though. 

I already forgot where I was going with it, but basically the ratios for stealth modifiers are as follows:

 

• sub8 CA vs 8+ BB -> 1.137 (includes Arkansas Beta)
• 8+ CA vs 8+ BB -> 1.023
• sub8 CA vs sub8 BB -> 1.024
• 8+ CA vs sub8 BB -> 0.921

 

I guess that shows the advantage that BBs get from those extra 2%

[tank276]

50 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Obviously BBs outspotting cruisers isn't anything new (as evidenced by the fact that NC has that same 11.8km detection as Conq), decided to make a list of all BBs which outspot cruisers that they can meet in their games, I mean - how many there could be, right? 39. That's how many

 

All the comparisons are at max concealment or those ships, so with camo (if applicable), with concealment expert skill, as well as concealment module (if applicable)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thnx for the effort man. +1

It is a bit silly that BBs outspot cruisers in general, I agree. Didnt really know there are so many cases involved though.

 

[wilkatis_LV]

4 minutes ago, tank276 said:

Thnx for the effort man. +1

It is a bit silly that BBs outspot cruisers in general, I agree. Didnt really know there are so many cases involved though.

 

17 of them are Moskva and Kirov alone

[philjd]

Nice work, thank you and well done.

 

On the general principle, the larger the ship the easier the spotting of it should be, then the Moskva is probably in the right place as it is not a small ship - there wa s post earlier this week, which I cannot find, that had a pictorial of all the ships in the game to scale in order of size, I wonder if there is a correlation between the two things?

[wilkatis_LV]

12 minutes ago, philjd said:

Nice work, thank you and well done.

 

On the general principle, the larger the ship the easier the spotting of it should be, then the Moskva is probably in the right place as it is not a small ship - there wa s post earlier this week, which I cannot find, that had a pictorial of all the ships in the game to scale in order of size, I wonder if there is a correlation between the two things?

If I remember correctly the spotting distance is supposed to be connected with the highest point of the ship - the higher up you go, the easier to spot you are. Something like a Kawachi which looks almost like a CV with bunch of turrets piled on top of it stays stealthy, while something like the 4th baguette (Duguay-Trosomething), which is actually larger than most BBs of its tier, is outspotted by basically everyone.

 

I'm taking a wild guess here, but I think that "highest point" is "highest point of your hitbox model" - if you look in game at the armour model things like masts aren't actually hitable zones, effectively they're just visual details on the ship.

[philjd]

Which will be why the Roma's beer can isn't a hit box :)

[piritskenyer]

2 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

In almost every case it's straight up "outspot at any level of concealment" thing, very rarely (like GK and Moskva) it comes down to BB can outspot CA bcuz of those 2% extra

 

[...] 

 

In my opinion (without doing the math, mind) it would reduce the margin just enough for it to be less weird. I can understand that spotting distance can be tied to ship size (or height, see prebuff Pepsi), but I would imagine that cruisers are easier to hide than a ship as big and obvious as, say a Montana or a GK. 

I'm not saying that any cruiser should always be stealthier than a BB (Moskva and HIV come to mind), but it would make more sense to me that the majority of cruisers would be. 

[El2aZeR]

6 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

Mikasa op, pls nerf. 

 

On a more serious note, now ofc comes the question whether or not it would harm BB gameplay too much if you were to raise their concealment by 1km or so to make them outspot fewer cruisers.

I reckon that it won't.

[Sub_Human]

Mabe wg could change consealment expert so that the percentage is the same, 10% for all classes... It would not make a huge difference, but would balance it a little. And bigger ships would still gain more than smaller from the perc.

[lup3s]

Monarch is quite insane though ..

[GulvkluderGuld]

1 hour ago, lup3s said:

Monarch is quite insane though ..

And it is still an awful boat and a step down from KGV, concealment or no. Just goes to show how bad those guns (angle, dispersion, penetration) really are.

[wilkatis_LV]

18 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

And it is still an awful boat and a step down from KGV, concealment or no. Just goes to show how bad those guns (angle, dispersion, penetration) really are.

Guns would be workable if the platform that they are mounted on wasn't so terribly bad

[Spellfire40]

9 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

If I remember correctly the spotting distance is supposed to be connected with the highest point of the ship - the higher up you go, the easier to spot you are. Something like a Kawachi which looks almost like a CV with bunch of turrets piled on top of it stays stealthy, while something like the 4th baguette (Duguay-Trosomething), which is actually larger than most BBs of its tier, is outspotted by basically everyone.

 

I'm taking a wild guess here, but I think that "highest point" is "highest point of your hitbox model" - if you look in game at the armour model things like masts aren't actually hitable zones, effectively they're just visual details on the ship.

if so only partly or every t6 plus ijn dd would have the same detection. Overall size also plays a role withing a class. The real problem is between classes CE profits larger vessles more wich is total BS. Not that it really maters between BBs and CAs since CAs to mantain any DPM give up any kind of stealth while BBs can usally fade between salvos at higher tirs.

[Ferry_25]

I think you're putting the finger on one of the most insane game mechanics in this game OP. Thanks for that. I know: it's not a historical accurate game. Lots of realism but it's an arcade game nevertherless. Like that or don't. That's not the point. In this game setting my opnion is a BB should never ever outspot a cruiser. no matter the tier difference. Your examples are stuff of legend. No matter how small the difference. It shouldn't be possible. As a matter of fact: i dare the community to name 1 cruiser which outspots a DD. Regardless of tier difference. (within the +/- 2 difference which we are all facing in randoms). I really think if this quick win is fixed it'll be a huge step in the right direction to make cruisers be more significant in this game.

 

tl;dr: BB's should never outspot a CA. A CA should never outspot a DD.

 

Regarding CV's... I feel general consensus is they shouldn't be here in the current game meta in the first place.

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, Ferry_25 said:

i dare the community to name 1 cruiser which outspots a DD.

 

...I think Mino outspots Khaba, 

[Ferry_25]

3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

...I think Mino outspots Khaba, 

Maybe. I mean fully stealth specced. And TBH: I don't acknowledge both as ships.... Halfcow being a island lover. Doing nothing 99% of the battle time and pop up when all planets align to get his/ her monster dmg. And Khaba as a one trick pony: sail at M5 and pewpewing his pathetic guns. Needing the same planet alignment to make it work. That 1 to 3 YT epic battles in it. I never saw that ship shine when caught in a corner... Same as the 99% battles in which I faced the demi-cow (and all inflatable rafts below that). I've gave up grinding the Rusian DD line because of the boring pewpewing. And never gave the RN cuiser boat line a serious shot. A cruiser without HE? What's next? A RN BB which shines in HE? (oh wait...). Looking forward to the RN DD line!!! A DD line whithout torpedo's...