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RedAnark

A disruptive quick proposal on Kills calculation

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Simply, very often who got the kill is not the one that really destroyed that enemy ship, but just got the last hps shot.

 

So WG can change the way it calculates the kills: instead of the last xx HP,  the most of the HPs of that ship.

 

So a player A that damages that ship for 50% of the ship hp get 0.5 of the kill.

Or player B that damages same ship for 10% of the hp, get 0.1 of the same kill.

And so on (like, by the way, you can see on the top of Detailed page at the end of a Battle)

 

So that ship at the end of the Batlle is killed, destroyed, by Player A that did the majority of the damage and he get the Ribbon, only him, the others just get the damage  as usual.

 

ALTERNATIVE

 

WG sum all the percentages achieved by every player and if the sum is equal to 1 or more you get 1 or more kill ribbon

(0.5 +0.1+0.4) = 1 Destroyed or (0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1) = 1 Destroyed

 

In this was you get a more fair result on who really did the dirty job or who hit more citadels and you discourage those players who wait for the last hps of a ship to get the kill.

And it works also very well when in a Mission you're required to "Win and destroy one ship" for example, so every player plays a real Battle instead of everybody looking for a kill to get the Mission done.

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There are games that award the kill to the person that did the majority of the damage and an "assist" score to the people that did other significant damage.

 

There are many aspects of the scoring system in this game that could use a good rework, the kills flag is certainly one of them. As is spotting (CV's especially suffer from this with DD's a close second). The whole scoring system is far too damage centric at the moment and camping is partially down to this.

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[PARAZ]
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...I don't see why? Rewards are already calculated by percentage of damage dealt, with a kill rewarding a flat 15% (which is imo fair as securing a kill can be important).

Thus the player who does most of the work killing off a target is rewarded accordingly, while the guy who secured the kill gets only a small consolation price.

 

Unless you really want that red ribbon (or Kraken I suppose) killstealing does literally nothing to hinder you. You will still have gotten the rewards you are entitled to even if someone else got the kill.

 

I second that the reward system needs overhaul, though.

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3 hours ago, RedAnark said:

...Simply, very often who got the kill is not the one that really destroyed that enemy ship, but just got the last hps shot...

 

...more fair result...

 

...And it works also very well when in a Mission you're required to "Win and destroy one ship" for example, so every player plays a real Battle instead of everybody looking for a kill to get the Mission done...

Devils advocate: You are saying with the current system, that if I cause considerable damage to what I consider a primary target, I can expect others on my team to target them also?  They are hoping to get the kill, but I am getting my target 'primaried'.  Now under the system you propose, the 'kill stealers', would have little interest in targeting ships highly damaged by other, but would instead find their own undamaged targets.

 

Current system: I don't get a kill flag, but I am more able to control the flow of battle because everyone has incentive to focus on the weakest enemy ship.

 

You proposal: I might get a flag, and many most would still focus fire, but the subset of players that are 'kill stealers' would actively seek out undamaged ships to fire at.

 

Note: WG mission design is horrible. 

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Every kill counts on the team that gets the kill..

Stop thinking individual success in a team game..

If everybody does that, then we can step into the progress..

 

On a different note, @El2aZeR really explained the system well... There is no kill stealing in this game.

I always try to think, people are not trying to steal kills, but focusing on low damage targets to get rid of one set of guns faster.

Less guns, less danger...

Kill is a kill... it is just a stepping stone towards to the victory. Doesn't matter who gets it.

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[FRDF]
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K/D ratio in this game means pretty much nothing, I don't mind if I did 95% damage to a ship and someone finishes it, I wanted that ship dead and now its dead.

 

Sure it can be frustrating when you sit at 4 kills and someone snatches your kraken away, but I can guarantee that you have done the same at some point :D (everyone probably has those 30k damage done krakens also).

 

Edit:

But I agree that reward system could use some tinkering, mainly on the spotting and tanking rewards.

Edited by Naesil
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2 hours ago, Excavatus said:

 

 

On a different note, @El2aZeR really explained the system well... There is no kill stealing in this game.

 

 

You would think differently when trying to kill Russian ships to finish the ARP Nachi mission.
Hell, playing Russian ships during that time period was enlightening. I swear that my priority counter always showed a high number, but I would actually get shot at much less at full hp than at almost no hp :Smile_smile:

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6 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

You would think differently when trying to kill Russian ships to finish the ARP Nachi mission.
Hell, playing Russian ships during that time period was enlightening. I swear that my priority counter always showed a high number, but I would actually get shot at much less at full hp than at almost no hp :Smile_smile:

 

That is a totally different problem about mission / campaing designs..

Even WG, dumbs down this game into individual performance.. rather than teamplay with these missons and campaings.

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23 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

You would think differently when trying to kill Russian ships to finish the ARP Nachi mission.
Hell, playing Russian ships during that time period was enlightening. I swear that my priority counter always showed a high number, but I would actually get shot at much less at full hp than at almost no hp :Smile_smile:

I played RU ships during that time without much problems.

Some problems appear only in the eye if the beholder.

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15 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I played RU ships during that time without much problems.

Some problems appear only in the eye if the beholder.


And some people have very poor awareness :Smile_smile:

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10 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

That is another problem. One of the reasons we have topics about kill stealing.

 

"Hey look, here's a situation where kill stealing exists!"
"That doesn't count, kill stealing doesn't exist"

The Soviet way of dealing with food shortage ! :Smile_trollface:

 

 

 

Look, kill stealing is far from an actual problem.
Very far from it.
But I don't see how denying the fact that it does exist helps. The best way to deal with topics like these is to explain that you get XP according to damage, with the actual kill reward being very low, but to [edited] people by saying that everything is for the best in all possible worlds.

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While the idea itself is interesting, I would like to point out, that many games are lost because heavily damaged enemy ships are not finished off. Sometimes the person doing abysmal damage to enemy ships and just "killstealing" (not a thing btw) ie finishing them off is making much more of a difference than the one who put the most damage into the enemy ship. 

 

I don't exactly understand the why of your suggestion, but rest assured: reward wise the player who gets the best rewarded in the destruction of a ship is the one who has made the most damage in precentage of total HP to the enemy ship. So a guy beating down 90% of the HP of an enemy ship is getting more credits and xp than the guy who takes the remaining 10% for the kill. 

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10 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

"Hey look, here's a situation where kill stealing exists!"
"That doesn't count, kill stealing doesn't exist"

The Soviet way of dealing with food shortage ! :Smile_trollface:

 

 

 

Look, kill stealing is far from an actual problem.
Very far from it.
But I don't see how denying the fact that it does exist helps. The best way to deal with topics like these is to explain that you get XP according to damage, with the actual kill reward being very low, but to [edited] people by saying that everything is for the best in all possible worlds.

Kill stealling cannot exist. It is just not possible.

When I got a kill, nobody can steal that. That is not possible.

When I do not have a kill, nobody can steal that either, because I do not have a kill to steal.

 

Kill stealing is a logical fallacy of people who feel entitled to something they did not earn.

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5 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

There is no kill stealing...

In this game there are no dead hulks in the water waiting to be finished off, that Yamato on 1hp hits just as hard as the one on 97,000 hp. Better to finish them off as quick as your team can before he gets that devastating strike on one of your cruisers. Also 'kill stealing' can be a matter of perspective, players can be so focused on pounding the target they fail to notice that others are doing the same as well, or that someone else had been firing on the target and had only stopped because they had lost LOS and were finishing off the job when it reappeared. I've been reported for being a useless kill stealer when I did over 30k damage to a 47k health ship :Smile_amazed:

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26 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Kill stealling cannot exist. It is just not possible.

When I got a kill, nobody can steal that. That is not possible.

When I do not have a kill, nobody can steal that either, because I do not have a kill to steal.

 

Kill stealing is a logical fallacy of people who feel entitled to something they did not earn.

 

Semantics !
The best way to argue !

Because lets just ignore a minuscule minority of the playerbase holds their fire in order to be the ones securing the kill.

Everyone is talking about the kill the 1hp Yamato could do, but no one is thinking of the kill the 10k hp Yamato is doing because some moron in an HE spamming GK is holding his fire.

 

 

Again, it's a ridiculously rare problem, but to be adamant that it doesn't ever happen is helping absolutely no one.

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5 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

There is no kill stealing...

There is however poor target selection. This is when we add torpedoes into the equation. You can see friendly torps, so why fire on a target that's about to eat a load of them? This is particularly bad in operations, 2 bb's near each other, one on low HP and about to be hit by torps, the other with loads of HP and sailing broadside on to you, which would you fire on? Some players seem to forget there aren't even any stats to bolster for operations, or that damage rewards you more than kills.

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7 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Semantics !
The best way to argue !

Because lets just ignore a minuscule minority of the playerbase holds their fire in order to be the ones securing the kill.

Everyone is talking about the kill the 1hp Yamato could do, but no one is thinking of the kill the 10k hp Yamato is doing because some moron in an HE spamming GK is holding his fire.

 

 

Again, it's a ridiculously rare problem, but to be adamant that it doesn't ever happen is helping absolutely no one.

It is not semantics, but logic.

 

Holding your fire for the purpose of kill securing is illogical too.

In a game where ONE ship can bring down a full health ship to being sunk in an instant, it makes no sense to hold your fire for kill securing, especiallly when multiple friendlies shoot that target. Getting a kill that way is just luck and not a valid strategy. 

Not getting a kill because of such behaviour is just bad luck.

 

And most of the time it is unintentional.

If you and and a teammate shoot a full health ship and you bring it to 5% with one salvo and your teammate sinks it because he dared to shoot one second later, he did not know you would shoot and what effect your salvo would have.

 

Basicly, to make sure to never be accused of "kill stealing", you should never focus fire, only fire at other peoples targets when all shots at these targets landed and none are in the air and the targets have more than 50% life.

 

Good luck winning that way!!

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if i see a target very low HP, wich allready get focused fire, and near that target is a juisy broadside full hp target, i will prefer to use the full salvo on the full hp one(mode dmg potential=more credits/xp potential), than to waste it just to secure a kill. But indeed sometimes, the 1st target i deliberately ignored, is still alive, so i had to secure  it in the end :).

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8 hours ago, RedAnark said:

Simply, very often who got the kill is not the one that really destroyed that enemy ship, but just got the last hps shot.

 

So WG can change the way it calculates the kills: instead of the last xx HP,  the most of the HPs of that ship.

 

So a player A that damages that ship for 50% of the ship hp get 0.5 of the kill.

Or player B that damages same ship for 10% of the hp, get 0.1 of the same kill.

And so on (like, by the way, you can see on the top of Detailed page at the end of a Battle)

 

So that ship at the end of the Batlle is killed, destroyed, by Player A that did the majority of the damage and he get the Ribbon, only him, the others just get the damage  as usual.

 

ALTERNATIVE

 

WG sum all the percentages achieved by every player and if the sum is equal to 1 or more you get 1 or more kill ribbon

(0.5 +0.1+0.4) = 1 Destroyed or (0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1) = 1 Destroyed

 

In this was you get a more fair result on who really did the dirty job or who hit more citadels and you discourage those players who wait for the last hps of a ship to get the kill.

And it works also very well when in a Mission you're required to "Win and destroy one ship" for example, so every player plays a real Battle instead of everybody looking for a kill to get the Mission done.

You miss a couple extremely important aspects here:

 

1. On full hp people are, obviously, much bolder than with a slither of health left. I mostly play Akizuki and believe me: it's not rare for me to lose 50+% of my hp in the opening minutes. I push caps aggressively and trade hp generously - because I can afford it. I can take a hit (well, for a DD) and I can dish a lot of damage against enemy DDs in return. What it means that most of my health is lost early on... and yet I tend survive 'till the late game (or even survive the game altogether). Because after the initial struggle I switch to a much more cautious play. I'm unwilling to trade hp anymore (obviously, since I don't have much to trade) and so dealing damage to me is much harder. What it means is that the guy who manages to hunt me down and take away my last 10% hp is quite likely to have done more to kill me than the people who shaved off my first 50+%.

2. Damage isn't equally valuable in context of getting the enemy out of the match. Especially BBs can withstand lots of HE and fire damage - they just heal up afterwards.

3. Last hits can be difficult - people who are about to die often try to run or hide (they don't fancy being on the bottom, the scoundrels) so delivering the finishing blow can be harder and riskier than the amount of damage inflicted would suggest (this ties in to the #1 above, but I decided it deserves its own bullet)

4. Actually killing the enemy is important. It's usually more worthwhile to shoot a target you can kill even if there's an easier target elsewhere - you WANT these guns out of the battle. Why is it wrong to actually reward people who manage to remove the threat permanently?

5. Due to damage saturation mechanics low hp targets often literally take less damage from the same hits. It's again back to the "it's easier to hurt full hp targets" but this time it's not even due to player behavior but due to hard-coded rules of the game! Heavily damaged targets are harder to damage further (and kill).

 

Don't take me wrong. It's hardly uncommon to see an exposed target on low hp with the whole team and their mother firing at the poor sucker - with the "owner" of the kill being ultimately decided by luck. Still, securing kills is extremely important, much more important than dealing damage. If we really wanted to implement anything like your propositions, it should never be in the way you suggest. The only variation that wouldn't be completely ridiculous would be perhaps "the kill goes to the one who dealt the most damage within the last 10 seconds" or something like this... Or maybe some other ribbon for most damage, to make people feel good.

 

Still, I don't really think we need to add some strange, complicated mechanisms like this. The current system has its flaws but it seems good enough - and the reward for the kill ribbon isn't all that spectacular - it's equal to dealing 30% damage, if I remember well. It's a nice boost and there are bragging rights, but if you deal 60% enemy hp in damage and someone "killsteals" him with negligible damage, your contribution is still counted as twice as heavy as the "killer's". On the other hand, the guy still gets rewarded properly if that "killsteal" happened to mean hunting the low-hp target down at expense of own time and hp...

 

I don't think we really need changes here. And even if we did - I'm sure they shouldn't take the form of your propositions.

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A dead/sunk ship is a ship that cannot do any more harm to you or your team so who gives a :Smile_facepalm: who gets the kill

 

I have been in games with team mate were we as always focus fire at the end I have had no kills but team mate has 4 or 5 kills and the end score shows me above my team mate in experience and credits so I don't give a :Smile_facepalm: who gets the kill , what I don't understand is all the bull and crying about kill stealing

 

The only time I will not take a kill is if we are in a winning position and maybe someone can get Kraken his 5th kill

 

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[2CMF]
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8 hours ago, Excavatus said:

Every kill counts on the team that gets the kill..

@El2aZeR(...)

 

 

Unfortunately, mission goals requiring to kill x enemy ships think differently. It is quite hilarious when you're on a top tier BB and your best efforts to damage enemy ships help opportunistic shooters to meet THEIR goals while your own just drag and drag.

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