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_Elin0s_

Ideas for CV-rework

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Hi, recently i've started playing CV a lot.

And I would really like to see get a CV-rework soon. So here are some ideas to improve the CV Gameplay.

I found 3 main Problems wich are: 

 

1. Playing CV feels like a different game because you mainly fight against the enemy CV and take out some ships from time to time.

2. CV Players mostly stay with thier ship at the edge of the map.

3. 3. Good Carrier Players can solocarry a match while unexperienced Players have no chanse do do sth. usefull. 

Problem 1:

 

1. only one fighter-squadron per CV

          Reducing the squadrons to one would force the Player to focus on enemy ships and not to fight the enemy carrier first because there is no fighter threat from enemy planes.

2. Add stuff like radar-planes and smoke-planes

           A plane that can radar a spot (slightly larger than a smoke Screen) for sth. like 30 secs. would improve the nessessay teamplay and a plane that can smoke up an allied ship in danger can be extremly usefull too

 

Problem 2:

1. Add sth. like an oporational range to the CV (like the range of the main armament)

         This would force the player to sail along with his fleet (Cap and stuff like that)

2. Allow the Carrier Player to actively aim with his guns and buff thier range. (Still automaticly firing on half range when u are in Plane Controlling mode)

        if the Carrier is pushing a cap along with some BB's, CA's or CL's, (i guess DD's would be in the first line so no where near the CV) he Needs sth. to efectively defend him self. The gunrange should be at DD lvl from the same Tier.

3. Buff the concealment (between average cruiser concealment and average destroyer concealment)

       the Carrier still shouldt be spotted all the time when he is with the fleet so a good concealment is necessary.

optional: Add a fuel System.

     Planes with limited airtime  would make the gameplay more difficult and might take some fun so this idea should only be realized if the CV's are to strong

 

Problem 3:

Reducing the number of fighterplanes is also an option for this problem

 

1.Unlimited planes

      Specially for bad Players, who just waste thier planes one by one this would be really helpfull.

2. Reduce the number of damage dealing planes

     instead of additional TB and DB the metioned radar-planes and smoke-planes could have a bigger Impact which is not based on damage. so bad layers can still be effective with radar and smoke even if they don't manage to hit torps or bombs .

 

 

 

 

I think hese changes would improve the CV-gameplay a lot and make it more team-based.

 

Feel free to share you opinion in the comments :)

 

 

 

Sinscce english is not my native language, pls. excuse mistakes in grammar and spelling. 

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Only real idea for CVs is to remove them altogether.


On one hand, you can't balance a non-reprisal class that allows you to delete enemy ships more or less at will as long as you know what you're doing while they can't at least have a chance to fight back, at least not until the whole enemy team has collapsed (and even then if you've been lucky enough to stay away from his deadly fingers, because if you've been one of the ones blasted into oblivion by his "fair, fun, and balanced" torpedo planes or bombers good luck with that. And -THAT- if  you are lucky enough to land in the team with the skilled carrier. More on that next).

On the other hand, you can't balance a class that's crucially game deciding (where the team with the most skilled CV wins almost by default). I'm tired of carrier games because it's always the same, one of them is at least competent and worries about essential stuff like sending recon over the caps, trying to keep DDs spotted, etc, while the other is a derp who does nothing of the likes, vitally handicapping the whole team.

 Nothing you can do about it, unless you force in some way a skilled-based matchmaking WG has always refused to even consider. That not being an option, the class is unmanageable.

And finally, while the only real counter to a CV is another CV, on top of what I mentioned avobe (that the most skilled CV will dominate the less skilled one and let's face it there are complete oxygen thefts out there playing the class even at tier X) there are some soft counters like AAA. But randoms being randoms, unless you bring yourself an AAA murder ship , nothing short of divisioning up with teammates who do it instead of yourself will do. A CV bent on destroying you no matter the cost of planes lost, WILL destroy you no matter what, unless you're in a true plane murder ship, or not next to one. In randoms that means that a) there might no real antiair ship in your team, and b)even if there is nothing guarantees you'll spawn close to him ,or that he has any clue on what he's doing.

So playing solo you have no answer to that threat. No counterplay, because you depend on others, and randoms are randoms (and again given no skilled MM, RANDOMS are usually VERY random, you get my drift). And most people play solo, so there you go. And even for divisions there should be no demand on the players to FORCE them to bring an AAA ship in a division just in case carriers happen. So that, again, it's not balanceable.


Only solution to make the class work is not to have it. Even with all the quirks and problems with UI, balance, etc, in the end the team with the best carrier will have a huge (and completely unfair) advantage over the team that's laden with the derp. Total random team composition worsen it, given the lack of guarantee your team will have AAA means and players skilled enough to use them to any effect. No consideration for a skill-based matchmaking ends up meaning that a class that powerful can't be allowed to exist. Simple as that.

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Thats why i want to reduce the range of the cv so he has to decide for one side only. 

And reducing the damage dealing squadrons means, that a100 to 0 attack should no longer be possible anymore.

I think the CV's should Support and not win the match alone

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28 minutes ago, _Elin0s_ said:

Hi, recently i've started playing CV a lot.

And I would really like to see get a CV-rework soon. So here are some ideas to improve the CV Gameplay.

Maby look on the forums to see what othere people have come up with .... ?

 

 

mang

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Biggest threat a CV means is not really the damage. The damage part of the equation is why most players despise the class with all your guts, because in a multiplayer game like this it's impossible for anyone to like someone who's hitting you without giving you any real chance of retribution or fighting back.

But that's only the tip of the iceberg. Sure, damage impacts gameplay, but the REAL threat of the CV is exactly being support, much more than their damage dealing ability. Games are really won and decided (most times) by the side with the DDs that perform the best/are most capable. DDs provide spotting, torpedo damage and a HUGE psychological impact on other players who have to watch their step at every second just in case one of those things is close by and dropping their fish on your direction. And obviously they're the main tool for a team to contest caps.

And the side with the good CV has a guarantee on having good or decent anti-DD spotting CV patrols, so they'll know the DD whereabouts, and will be able to shoot at them when spotted, and those DDs will be handcuffed to come close to a contested cap as a result - netting an incredible advantage.

Meanwhile the side with the derp is blind for good, because their own DDs will be put on lockdown by the enemy CV, while the enemy DDs are allowed to roam free, contest caps, terrorize everyone with their torps and generally speaking, deciding the game for good. So that's an almost guaranteed loss for them.


The only way to keep that crucial aspect at check is GUARANTEEING both sides have equal skill level CVs. And that's not going to happen, so the best way to balance CVs still is, then, to remove them completely from the game.

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35 minutes ago, _Elin0s_ said:

1. only one fighter-squadron per CV

 

On the contrary this will place further importance on fighter micro as you only have one of them.

 

35 minutes ago, _Elin0s_ said:

2. Add stuff like radar-planes and smoke-planes

 

Smoke is to deny vision, thus a partial counter to CVs. They must not be able to counter what is supposed to counter them.

 

35 minutes ago, _Elin0s_ said:

1. Add sth. like an oporational range to the CV (like the range of the main armament)

2. Allow the Carrier Player to actively aim with his guns and buff thier range. (Still automaticly firing on half range when u are in Plane Controlling mode)

3. Buff the concealment (between average cruiser concealment and average destroyer concealment)

 

Yeah, no. This would be a noob trap of the highest order. As soon as the CV is spotted (which is inevitable when the CV opens fire or the enemy decides to contest) he'll be focused down into oblivion.

 

35 minutes ago, _Elin0s_ said:

1.Unlimited planes

      Specially for bad Players, who just waste thier planes one by one this would be really helpfull.

 

No it won't. Bad players will keep wasting their planes on high AA targets, thus making the amount of reserves completely irrelevant. This would be a change that benefits only the higher skill levels.

 

35 minutes ago, _Elin0s_ said:

I think hese changes would improve the CV-gameplay a lot and make it more team-based.

 

CV play is already team based. Inherently a CV can do nothing but spot and defend your team from air strikes, if you want to deal damage either the enemy team has to severely misplay or your own team opens up a potential target for you.

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2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

On the contrary this will place further importance on fighter micro as you only have one of them.

 

 

Smoke is to deny vision, thus a partial counter to CVs. They must not be able to counter what is supposed to counter them.

 

 

Yeah, no. This would be a noob trap of the highest order. As soon as the CV is spotted (which is inevitable as soon as the CV opens fire or the enemy decides to contest) he'll be focused down into oblivion.

 

 

No it won't. Bad players will keep wasting their planes on high AA targets, thus making the amount of reserves completely irrelevant. This would be a change that benefits only the higher skill levels.

 

 

CV play is already team based. Inherently a CV can do nothing but spot and defend your team from air strikes, if you want to deal damage either the enemy team has to severely misplay or your own team opens up a potential target for you.

Thank you for sharing your opinion :)

 

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40 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

CV play is already team based. Inherently a CV can do nothing but spot and defend your team from air strikes, if you want to deal damage either the enemy team has to severely misplay or your own team opens up a potential target for you.

very nice told , u got my vote :P

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Vor 2 Stunden, _Elin0s_ sagte:

2. CV Players mostly stay with thier ship at the edge of the map.

Uh, no, only bad players do that. I see enough CVs in caps ;)

 

I think players should have more than just 200 CV games before proposing such a big rework. You don't even have a T8 CV yet and your skills at T6 and T7 leave a lot to be desired. You need more experience. You need to understand how CVs work before you can think about how to change them.

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2 hours ago, RAMJB said:

And finally, while the only real counter to a CV is another CV, on top of what I mentioned avobe (that the most skilled CV will dominate the less skilled one and let's face it there are complete oxygen thefts out there playing the class even at tier X) there are some soft counters like AAA.

 

You will often hear "The counter to a CV is teamplay." which is right. Your CV can't be everywhere at once nor should he be obliged to be. The best defense against a CV are two or three (or more) ships with moderate to good AA and the CV will think twice to attack this AA blob or rather the single BB cruising somewhere in the no man's land.

Sure, it is much harder to do this as a solo player but if others don't want to stay with you, you should try to stay with them.

 

1 hour ago, _Elin0s_ said:

Thats why i want to reduce the range of the cv so he has to decide for one side only. 

And reducing the damage dealing squadrons means, that a100 to 0 attack should no longer be possible anymore.

I think the CV's should Support and not win the match alone

 

Which will lead to total and utterly bull§hittery at the beginning of each battle. CVs will wait until it is clear where the enemy CV is so they can go to the other side and don't have to deal with enemy fighters. Same for BBs and DDs. And all the AA CAs will want to go to the flank where there are actually planes to get some plane kills. I don't even want to imagine how the "Funny and sad game situations shown with map screenshots" thread will grow after such a change...

And to be fair, this 100% to 0 strikes have a "reload time" of several minutes and it isn't even guaranteed that you do full damage.

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this makes me laugh first have you tried playing tier 8+ cv's? the aa on pretty much every bb/cruiser is like :cap_rambo:and you lose whole squads of planes to a single ship, i mean my NC is a killer of planes with a level 13 captain and a AA rating technically over 100 was at 99 before i took advance fire control.

 

the skill required to micro manage planes as well as your ship should not be understated here it does take skill to play cv effectively and i am by no means a expert.

 

the skill to play battleships, dont show broad side use the information given to you (distance,shell flight time) and learn what the crosshair does and how to use it to lead your shots i watched 1 video on youtube and my hit rate went up by a factor of 10, once you got this down bb's are by far the easiest clash to play, long range guns, great armor, tons of hp

 

your idea is flawed on so many levels infinite planes, in that case your right cv's will solo the battle, as it currently stands i do 31k average damage in my tier 8 lexington and according to wows-numbers.com that is considered green (good)  don't sound like they dictate the battle to me.

 

but like many have said cv's help with spotting and thats there strength otherwise dd's would just dominate bb's by kiting them outside of view range   

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2 hours ago, Tungstonid said:

 

You will often hear "The counter to a CV is teamplay." which is right. Your CV can't be everywhere at once nor should he be obliged to be. The best defense against a CV are two or three (or more) ships with moderate to good AA and the CV will think twice to attack this AA blob or rather the single BB cruising somewhere in the no man's land.

Sure, it is much harder to do this as a solo player but if others don't want to stay with you, you should try to stay with them.

 

This is excellent advice, and I try and live by it. But sometimes (quite often actually) the situation is out of your hands.

 

EXAMPLE:

I am in a tier 5 cruiser (say, Koenigsberg) in a largely tier 6 game.

I join 4 other ships heading to contest a cap, maybe a "Texas", a "Cleveland" and two DDs.

We meet 5 enemy ships and after a hot battle they are all sunk, but only my ship and a DD survive from our team. Both half dead.

Planes from an enemy CV arrive and decide I am the easiest target and sink me while I frantically try to get back to friendly ships that have some good AA.

What on earth am I guilty of in that situation? Being a survivor of the original battle!

 

BUT FOR BALANCE

On the other hand the AA power of some ships is just incredible. And with a lot of ships able not just to defend themselves as if they are gods, but also neighbouring teammates, then it is the CV which is at an unfair disadvantage.

 

Relying on teamplay being part of the balancing of any ship class is asking for trouble. I wish it were otherwise .... I really do. Some games you don't even get a response when you ask for plans at the start of the battle. Some put it down to people not understanding each other due to language barriers. (Miserable sods, more like)

 

I think we need to forget teamplay for Random battles and just ensure that both CVs and non-CVs have realistic capabilities to hurt each other if played competently. Neither "No Fly Zones" nor "No AA Ships" should not exist IMHO.

 

 

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Its quite simple

1) Reduce the skill required to play a high tier CV even competently by needing less micro management of fighters the whole time which is what the strafe mechanic demands.   I don't mean completely remove all micro management from CV's but its frankly ridiculous now with the dancing that goes on with fighters

2) Reduce the impact of AA skills and modules on a ships overall AA performance.  At present almost any high tier BB can be turned into an AA fortress that's almost untouchable for most CVs.  Instead the main deciding factor should be the ship itself and any hull upgrades.   A same tier CV should in the main be able to attack any BB that has nothing within 10km of it on its own side that wasn't built for the US Navy after 1935 and come away with more than three quarters of its full strike wave.  Stuff like the Conqueror and German BB's don't need nuts AA potential to be very strong ships.  There may be odd exceptions to this like Colorado and the odd premium already in game which could be removed from sale to make up for it (Kii, Texas)

3) Some CVs may need rebalancing (again) after strafe is removed but that can be done without an issue.   The Saipan was very playable even before the strafe became its hallmark. The way strafe has gone has turned me off playing my CVs completely.  

4) If you are going to pigeonhole US CV's with only one available load out, this must be done to IJN CV's as well to keep things fair.  particularly in ranked and competitive

5) When this is done, please for heavens sake bring out at least one Royal Navy Carrier so we can see what the style of play might be for these.  We are three years into the game and an entire class only has two lines and the Graf Z (which doesn't count)  But do this carefully not like Graf Z was done.  Every other class has three, four, five lines.  Its time to produce some new and original content for carrier players and to encourage players to return to carriers at all tiers.  If there were only two BB lines at this point, people would be going ballistic.  

6) STOP buffing AA levels by adding stupid AA ships or increasing raw AA damage.  This isn't the way to attract new and returning players to try carriers

7) If you are going to keep strafe, then tier 5 CV's should NOT see tier 6 CV's under any circumstance except divisions because either all CV's on a field should have it or none should and CV's should only generally see one tier up (certainly tier 6 CV's) if AA stays the same because the idea of tier 6 CV's running into tier 8 BBs' is ridiculous.  Its not like say a Warspite or a Farragut doing so because an Independence cannot approach an NC or one of its sisters with planes whereas either of those ships can do damage to one and CV hangars double moving from tier 6 to tier 7 so an Indi has three plane squads in reserve and that's it whereas the Ranger has a lot more

 

I know there are BBabies about, but every ship needs a counter and its about time BBs actually had one.  DDs and CVs have been continually nerfed over two years.  I don't think Asashio helps because its now harder than it should be to remain undetected in a DD around battleships.  Also, no BB should have any cruiser unique modules.  This includes both Hydro and Radar.  The whole point of Cruisers was these unique modules and their versatility.  BBs should NOT bring versatility

 

Please don't stat bash me.  I'm not the best player in the world but I've done ok in my more recent CV line (IJN) and the premium CV's though I haven't had a lot of games in Kaga or Hak admittedly.  I also have played about a sixth of my total number of games in CV's so I hardly play exclusively CV's and indeed have gone completely off them in the last year or so with the amount of micro management needed to play any of mine except Kaga and I feel playing that wouldn't be fair since it is so ridiculously overpowered when top tier as my six games in it have proven

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6 minutes ago, lankylad11_lankylad said:

1) Reduce the skill required to play a high tier CV even competently by needing less micro management of fighters the whole time which is what the strafe mechanic demands.   I don't mean completely remove all micro management from CV's but its frankly ridiculous now with the dancing that goes on with fighters

 

On 2/10/2018 at 11:07 PM, El2aZeR said:

Problem with trying to remove strafing is that fighters would once again become worthless against massed strikes as they were in CBT.

On 2/11/2018 at 2:01 AM, El2aZeR said:

The most fighters you have is usually two, split across two flanks. Bombers tend to number in 4 all the way up to 6. There is no way you can clear them all out without some kind of AoE attack unless you up fighter dps to ridiculous levels. As in full AA spec DM + DFAA levels.

You could also simply kill fighters with your bombers by picking two skills that were previously noob traps (Evasive Maneuver + Expert Rear Gunner). That'd still devalue fighters completely as a both an active and passive air denial tool. You could basically only intercept if your enemy is about to drop which really will not do anything given the small time window.

Also this assumes your enemy is simply going to let himself be intercepted as he can see your fighters coming from miles away. When you try to save an ally you usually have only a small time window to prevent enemy planes from causing catastrophic damage which prevents a click engagement entirely. If your fighters are in the area anyway, the enemy CV simply won't go there.

Not to mention that this would once again promote selfish play. Lock enemy fighters with your own, go deal catastrophic damage to your target. Doesn't matter if your team is left without air cover once you do, at least you get some sweet sweet numbers out of it. There's nothing you can do to cover your team with only click fights anyway, either the enemy also simply locks your fighters with his or he chooses a target you're not in place to protect. And after enemy bombers have dropped their ordinance any kind of attempt to kill them would kill your own fighters.

 

Considering the current state of CV play and what fighters would look like without it strafing is not only a perfectly fine mechanic, I would even go as far as calling it essential as with it fighters pose the serious threat to air strikes they should quite frankly be. Unless you replace it with an equally dominant mechanic there is simply no way you can remove it.

 

Instead, let new players actually know that something like strafing exists, how to look for it (maybe a better visual indicator is needed here, currently you can only see an enemy fighter squad strafing if you're way too close for comfort or if you can recognize the particular behaviors the s***ty UI tends to exhibit when an enemy squad strafes. Also it is obviously mandatory that the UI is fixed), how to dodge it and how to counter it. Same things applies to strafing out.

 

What many people forget is that strafing was actually a most welcome solution to a big problem, namely that fighters were completely, utterly worthless as air denial tools. Even with the rework I don't see how strafing can be removed unless replaced by an equally dominant mechanic (or the gameplay concept is thrown completely on its head).

 

Although judging by their most recent comments WG seems to want to make CVs a reliable and potent damage dealing class, which is completely contradictory to the current design.

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so.. tell me If I am wrong,

 

but you want,

 

Planes with radar capabilities, (cruisers)

Planes with smoking capabilities, (DDs and Cruisers)

you want main battery guns for CV, (all ships except CVs)

you want unlimited planes,

you want concealment BETTER than cruisers

So you want every ability from every ship to be available for CVs.. (because reasons?)

and while you are automatically fighting close Quarters fights with your CV, you want to smoke yourself, radar the enemy and torp them with unlimited planes and because you dont want to worry too much about the fighters, you want them limited to 1 Squadron...

 

Some points you missed.. I wanted to add.

CVs must do 35knotts min.. and shoud have a rudder time of 2 seconds.

 

WTF just did I read?

Really??

What are you using? 

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1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

so.. tell me If I am wrong,

 

but you want,

 

Planes with radar capabilities, (cruisers)

Planes with smoking capabilities, (DDs and Cruisers)

you want main battery guns for CV, (all ships except CVs)

you want unlimited planes,

you want concealment BETTER than cruisers

So you want every ability from every ship to be available for CVs.. (because reasons?)

and while you are automatically fighting close Quarters fights with your CV, you want to smoke yourself, radar the enemy and torp them with unlimited planes and because you dont want to worry too much about the fighters, you want them limited to 1 Squadron...

 

Some points you missed.. I wanted to add.

CVs must do 35knotts min.. and shoud have a rudder time of 2 seconds.

 

WTF just did I read?

Really??

What are you using? 

Nah, he only wants win button with CV icon on it:Smile_smile:

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I presume you're referring to El2aZeRs post. Just put him on your ignore-list. He's a CV fanatic and doesn't want them to be balanced to the same level as the other classes.

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Just now, Phlogistoned said:

I presume you're referring to El2aZeRs post. Just put him on your ignore-list. He's a CV fanatic and doesn't want them to be balanced to the same level as the other classes.

I dont know @El2aZeR personally,

But Have seen him playing a CV.. a couple times we were in the same team..

Have you seen him playing a good battle in a CV?

Have you really read what he writes?

 

In my opinion there is no way to completely balance the CVs..

WG has another arty situation in their hands..

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And the other hand you can do everything needed for the team, completely outplay / deplane the enemy CV, and still lose because you're in a team full of potatoes.

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I'm sure WG can balance CVs, but I'm not sure they have the willpower to do it.

 

It would require them to completely rework the CV mechanics, opening up for possible refund claims, in addition to the cost of the actual rework being done. That is an expense they have to be able to earn back in the 'new' game after the rework.

 

The thing in favor of rework is that CVs make the game less fun for the majority of players, so a rework may (hopefully) increase the player base.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Phlogistoned said:

The thing in favor of rework is that CVs make the game less fun for the majority of players, so a rework may (hopefully) increase the player base.

 

 

Source for this statement, or is it merely a 'I feel this way thus the majority feels this way' kind of statement...

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20 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Source for this statement, or is it merely a 'I feel this way thus the majority feels this way' kind of statement...

Well from the amount of CV crying threads you could say that lot of people think that way. And I have to admit that when I'm playing a DD my first reaction when checking the team line-ups is "well sh*t it's a CV game", but still I think CVs have their place in the game and should be reworked in collaboration with actually good CV players, don't make it another click to be successful no counterplay. (Looking at you Conqueror :Smile_child:)

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6 dakika önce, Naesil dedi:

don't make it another click to be successful no counterplay. (Looking at you Conqueror :Smile_child:)


No counterplay? Holy crap

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45 minutes ago, Phlogistoned said:

I'm sure WG can balance CVs, but I'm not sure they have the willpower to do it.

 

It would require them to completely rework the CV mechanics, opening up for possible refund claims, in addition to the cost of the actual rework being done. That is an expense they have to be able to earn back in the 'new' game after the rework.

 

The thing in favor of rework is that CVs make the game less fun for the majority of players, so a rework may (hopefully) increase the player base.

 

 

No they cant... yes they can but not making a great portion of the player base unhappy..

So as I've said before,

They have the exact same situation with the ARTY in their hands.

 

They have a complex game mechanic which makes a part of the player base unhappy,

no small changes or tweaks will make that part happy and carries the risk of making a happy player group slightly unhappy,

They cant completely rework the class because that doesnt guarantee to make both parties happy but evidence suggest it will not.

The complete arty rework in WOT only decreased the unhappy population %10 but made arty players unhappy at least %70..

 

so.. they will not take that risk in wows, to give that much resource and time to rework CVs..

 

and on the otherhand, WG numerously stated that they will not open the door for refunding no matter what.

Nothing will ever NERFED or which may slightly considered as a NERF chaged in premium ships..

 

Yes they can globally change a mechanic which will ultimately affects the CVs.. like they can change torp mechanics completely.. but that is too much and too risky to do..

 

 

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182 posts
3,092 battles
1 minute ago, Accelerated said:


No counterplay? Holy crap

Let me guess you will now say that just focus it down with 5 ships and it's dead? Now tell me how that is counterplay when every other ship in the game goes down even faster when they get the same treatment :D

And I don't personally have issues against Conq, it's just that below average players can have similar effect on the match than above average player in any other BB. Unicums be unicums and tomatoes be tomatoes no matter what ship they sail.

 

Why I commented what I did was because I want to keep at least some skill elements in this game, WG commented something like making CVs more friendly to use (in other words take skill elements away from the class) similar how Conqueror can just spam HE and heal absurd amount of his HP and also go stealth easily by not firing and be almost impervious to citadels.

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