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NothingButTheRain

What is the BB meta?

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I've been around for about half a year now and I keep reading about how BBs are supposedly too powerful or the players in them are supposedly camping at the edge of the map all the time. But I've also come across people who insist that during the time I've played WoWS, BBs hadn't received any nerfs, which is blatantly untrue.

 

I'd like to know what the actual problem with BBs are supposed to be? I mean, if these players play DD instead of BB, it would probably be the same level of fail for the winning chance of that game. Even worse if my CV player is one of those BB edge camping persons and the CV player on the other side is a routinier.

So when it comes to edge camping, I don't really understand why it's so bad to edge camp in a BB when fail carrieing is probably even worse and fail-DDing is also likely to be just as bad.

 

People will play like crap no matter what ship you put them in, but I hear a lot of complaining about BBs as well. So what's the deal with this BB meta I keep hearing a lot about? Why should BBs need more nerfs? What's the problem with BBs and what's so special about this supposed problem? Could anyone explain this to me?

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There are too many BBs.

Too many BBs leave cruisers not much room to breath and do their job.

 

High number of BBs are caused by their strength (real, imagined, ease of play) and popularity.

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Bbs are the most forgiving class to play. They do however have a harder time contributing in securing a win than a DD or CV. The former inherently attracts a certain type of hyper passive player that, due to the latter, will exclusively rely on their team to carry them, even if they don't realize that is what they are doing. They will often cite a bbs lack of maneuverability and concealment (lol Brits) as the reason for this.

 

And no, bbs have not been DIRECTLY nerfed as a class in an age and a half. You may think that smoke changes and dwts were nerfs, but they weren't. They were mechanics that AFFECTED bbs, but also did so for every other class in the game. Particularly negatively for cruisers.

 

Also, just because a CV or DD can play poorly in their own way doesn't make red line sniping in a BB any less of a shitty idea.

 

 

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Once we get to T10..cruisers become insanely powerfull. Thats when DDs suffer the most IMO. BBs are more forgivingly in mistakes. 

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On 3/5/2018 at 3:07 PM, FishDogFoodShack said:

Bbs are the most forgiving class to play. They do however have a harder time contributing in securing a win than a DD or CV. The former inherently attracts a certain type of hyper passive player that, due to the latter, will exclusively rely on their team to carry them, even if they don't realize that is what they are doing. They will often cite a bbs lack of maneuverability and concealment (lol Brits) as the reason for this.

 

And no, bbs have not been DIRECTLY nerfed as a class in an age and a half. You may think that smoke changes and dwts were nerfs, but they weren't. They were mechanics that AFFECTED bbs, but also did so for every other class in the game. Particularly negatively for cruisers.

 

Also, just because a CV or DD can play poorly in their own way doesn't make red line sniping in a BB any less of a shitty idea.

 

 

Just to get this misunderstanding out of the way right away, it's irrelevant whether a nerf is direct or indirect, to me a nerf is a nerf. It's about gameplay and if some change effects BBs negatively compared to other classes, then to me it was a nerf for BB gameplay (which constitutes to a nerf to BBs, which in the end is all the same thing anyway).

 

The question whether or not this was enough of a nerf to BBs is more of a subjective one. But BB gameplay (and thus BBs) have gotten at least one nerf, which to me makes the statement "BBs never gotten a nerf!" simply incorrect, which makes me wonder if other statements made by the people who mention this is actually correct as well. So I really want to get these misunderstandings out of the way as I want to learn to understand what the main issue is here.

 

About DDs and cruisers, I do think these both are harder to play for newer players. I had a very rough time playing Mahan without the CE skill :Smile_facepalm:

I don't really see the smoke changes to cruisers being more of a nerf as they can still fire from within smoke without being detected. With BBs this seems night on impossible now. I actually like these changes, playing cruiser is already quite challenging.

 

On 3/5/2018 at 2:49 PM, ColonelPete said:

There are too many BBs.

Too many BBs leave cruisers not much room to breath and do their job.

 

High number of BBs are caused by their strength (real, imagined, ease of play) and popularity.

But if there's a max of 5 BBs each team, wouldn't that be enough to prevent a BB overflow? I mean the waiting times for BBs is actually a good thing for most other classes as I can get into battle almost instantly :Smile_great:

I stopped playing DD because I had a harder time without the CE skill. That's the main reason I quit DD. I don't play cruiser as much as I used to either (I kinda got standed with Pepsi and Hipper, both ships are not really impressive to me and often feel more like dead weight. Cleveland was fun to play though!).

 

Btw, why did they nerf those IJN torps anyway? Maybe they overdid this chance? This was from before my time so I don't know how it was before.

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41 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I've been around for about half a year now and I keep reading about how BBs are supposedly too powerful or the players in them are supposedly camping at the edge of the map all the time. But I've also come across people who insist that during the time I've played WoWS, BBs hadn't received any nerfs, which is blatantly untrue.

 

I'd like to know what the actual problem with BBs are supposed to be? I mean, if these players play DD instead of BB, it would probably be the same level of fail for the winning chance of that game. Even worse if my CV player is one of those BB edge camping persons and the CV player on the other side is a routinier.

So when it comes to edge camping, I don't really understand why it's so bad to edge camp in a BB when fail carrieing is probably even worse and fail-DDing is also likely to be just as bad.

 

People will play like crap no matter what ship you put them in, but I hear a lot of complaining about BBs as well. So what's the deal with this BB meta I keep hearing a lot about? Why should BBs need more nerfs? What's the problem with BBs and what's so special about this supposed problem? Could anyone explain this to me?

BBs are too powerfull.

 

only BB can with one shell do 8-9 k to DD

the most powerful AAA on ship is on BB

BB can oneshoot cruiser

Highest firestarter in game is BB

BB have best armor

BB have best health

BB have radar/hydro/deff AAA

BB have best torp protection.

BB has best heal in game

BB has most range

BB has most health

to kill BB in 2 minutes you need focusfire from 4 ships

any threat to BB is nerfed to ground - torpedos (IJN dd) primarly

 

what is true enemie of bb?....other BB

 

 

Hard to kill, longest range, no need to change shells type in new BBs, no natural enemies = BB meta

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3 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

But if there's a max of 5 BBs each team, wouldn't that be enough to prevent a BB overflow? I mean the waiting times for BBs is actually a good thing for most other classes as I can get into battle almost instantly :Smile_great:

5 BB is still too many, 5BB, 5DD and 2CA/CL are quite common, especially at higher tiers.

 

And amount of BBs is that high MM can't cope with them and spew battles like 12v12 BB... which are even more campfest than usual

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6 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

But if there's a max of 5 BBs each team, wouldn't that be enough to prevent a BB overflow? I mean the waiting times for BBs is actually a good thing for most other classes as I can get into battle almost instantly :Smile_great:

I stopped playing DD because I had a harder time without the CE skill. That's the main reason I quit DD. I don't play cruiser as much as I used to either (I kinda got standed with Pepsi and Hipper, both ships are not really impressive to me and often feel more like dead weight. Cleveland was fun to play though!).

 

Btw, why did they nerf those IJN torps anyway? Maybe they overdid this chance? This was from before my time so I don't know how it was before.

You have 3 (4) classes in game and 12 ships per team. Do you not think that 5 ships of one class per team is a bit much (and this is with soft cap of 5 ships). Without a cap you would regularly see more than 5 BBs per side.

 

The IJN torpedos got reworked because some BB players whined too much. Something bad BB players are known for.

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1 hour ago, NothingButTheRain said:

But I've also come across people who insist that during the time I've played WoWS, BBs hadn't received any nerfs, which is blatantly untrue.

 

 

The last and the most recent buff for a ship was for a BB, Gascogne getting 2 seconds shorter reload.

 

All the nefs to the other classes (AFT nerf. stealth firing nerf, smoke nerf, etc.) were indirect BB buffs.

 

Even the recent Detonation change is again a BB buff, because cruisers and destroyers instant death is caused not so much by Detonation, but by Devastating Strikes from BB (with the amazing BB AP on DDs efficiency)

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18 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

But if there's a max of 5 BBs each team, wouldn't that be enough to prevent a BB overflow?

If the limit was 3, that would be the case. It's not.

 

Basically, it's not about BBs being too powerful - or even about 5 BBs being a disaster. It would be perfectly fine to see 5 BBs (or, hell, even more) per team once in a while. But the number of BBs ensures that 5 BBs per team are the norm. Sometimes it's 4. I don't say that low BB matches don't happen but they are very rare - and that's what the term "BB meta" or more precisely "BB-heavy meta" comes from. This situation breeds pathology in the game, where bow-tanking is all-important, pushing in means exposing broadside (because you can't angle against whole enemy fleet when you're close), cruisers need to spend the match hidden behind islands. Btw, one of the by-products of the BB-heavy meta is also overrepresentation of DDs because cruisers can't threaten them properly (too risky with all these BBs). So we end up with loads of torpboats hoping to prey on BBs - and loads of gunboats who're there to hunt these torpboats.

 

Although, I must say, I don't believe (low) hard caps on classes would really save the day - I like the idea of there being 5+ BBs and/or 5+ DDs... only I'd like these situations to be a rare special match rather than something that happens every other game.

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On 3/5/2018 at 3:29 PM, Panocek said:

5 BB is still too many, 5BB, 5DD and 2CA/CL are quite common, especially at higher tiers.

 

And amount of BBs is that high MM can't cope with them and spew battles like 12v12 BB... which are even more campfest than usual

This seems interesting actually. Can't remember having had a 12 vs 12 BB battle myself, even though I played higher tier BB over 100 times now.

 

I don't get many games with only 2 cruisers each team though. Most battles I see do have 5 BB for each team, but this includes tier 5 and up.

On 3/5/2018 at 3:48 PM, 22cm said:

 

Last and the most recent buff for a ship was for a BB, Gascogne getting 2 seconds shorter reload.

 

All the nefs to the other classes (AFT nerf. stealth firing nerf, smoke nerf, etc.) were indirect BB buffs.

Isn't this to be expected from a new line and new premium? This is also just a single ship. That seems to have very little to do with the whole BB meta problems.

 

Yes and all the nerfs to BBs (including smoke nerf) were indirect non-BB buffs. You're not making a lot of sense to me.

On 3/5/2018 at 3:29 PM, 15JG52Adler said:

BBs are too powerfull.

 

only BB can with one shell do 8-9 k to DD But DD can with 1 torp do similar amount of damage and cause flooding on top of that.

the most powerful AAA on ship is on BB Which one? BBs don't have defensive fire consumable, right?

BB can oneshoot cruiser DD can onetorp BB

Highest firestarter in game is BB You mean the Britisch BBs? Or do you mean highest fire chance per salvo? or per minute? What do you mean exactly by this?

BB have best armor Yes

BB have best health and BB has most health True

BB have radar/hydro/deff AAA Cruisers have more radar/hydro/deff AA

BB have best torp protection. Other classes have the agility and consumables to actively avoid getting torped.

BB has best heal in game true, but worst stealth.BB has most range Don't CV have more range? Their planes can get across the entire map.

to kill BB in 2 minutes you need focusfire from 4 ships Or a good crossdrop or a Flint or whatever.

any threat to BB is nerfed to ground - torpedos (IJN dd) primarly What was BB like before these nerfs?

 

what is true enemie of bb?....other BB I'm actually mostly worried about DDs and depending on the BB, enemy CV.

 

 

Hard to kill, longest range, no need to change shells type in new BBs, no natural enemies = BB meta

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time agreeing with you or to take your point of view seriously. No offense but you seem to be somewhat exaggerating.

 

On 3/5/2018 at 3:35 PM, ColonelPete said:

You have 3 (4) classes in game and 12 ships per team. Do you not think that 5 ships of one class per team is a bit much (and this is with soft cap of 5 ships). Without a cap you would regularly see more than 5 BBs per side.

 

The IJN torpedos got reworked because some BB players whined too much. Something bad BB players are known for.

I think the cap of 5 each team is a good one. But I think it would be better to make cruisers more attractive to play. Right now they seem a bit uninteresting.

What would you reckon from map design? Would you think that plays a role in this problem?

Btw, I'm not really sure is fewer BBs are a good idea. I see enough battles with less then 5 BBs, though 2x5 BB matches are very common.

 

Too bad WG seemed to listen to these whiners then. Perhaps it would be better to not listen to whiners anymore?

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Map design could play a role. Many agree that high tier maps are too open and make cruiser life harder.

But I am not sure that changing the map design will change class numbers much, since using terrain to your advantage is a sign of skilled play and that is not common.

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1 minute ago, NothingButTheRain said:

This seems interesting actually. Can't remember having had a 12 vs 12 BB battle myself, even though I played higher tier BB over 100 times now.

 

I don't get many games with only 2 cruisers each team though. Most battles I see do have 5 BB for each team, but this includes tier 5 and up.

Isn't this to be expected from a new line and new premium? This is also just a single ship. That seems to have very little to do with the whole BB meta problems.

 

Yes and all the nerfs to BBs (including smoke nerf) were indirect non-BB buffs. You're not making a lot of sense to me.

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time agreeing with you or to take your point of view seriously. No offense but you seem to be somewhat exaggerating.

Best AAA in game = Montana

Most fire chance per minute = Conqueror

True that CA have more hydro/radar/def aaa but dont have 50% torp reduction, 100k health, ability to oneshoot dd...BB has all of that with no drawback

almost any of your response is that some other class can do something BB can do it too....but NONE OF THEM can do it all together....BB can

 

problem is here that BB can fit in all roles and made CA totally obsolete. Why do you think in clan wars number of BBs are limited to 1....because nobody would take cruiser if he can take BB. 

 

Also did i mention that some of BBs have better stealth than cruisers?

 

 

DDs need special topic to explain how they got fucked by BBs whining:

 

- detection of torps fucked, so BBs dont need to do preemptive maneuvers but still can avoid most torps when they see them

- spread....over 10 km torps spread that much that even full broadside BB will get max 2.

- stealthfire - gone

- AP before did only overpen, so 6 hits on DD would mean 5 -6 k...now 6 hits = dead DD....nothing has so deadly ammo as AP from BB that does double penetration values od DD.....in fact DDs have citadel now

- introduction to radar, hydro, double spoting planes - everything that forces DD to fire from longer range aka have bigger dispersion on their torps

 

dd can oneshoot BBs if they come to 2 km from him...and not all.....KM t10 dd if hits ALL torps (8) can not one shoot BBs

 

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On 3/5/2018 at 4:14 PM, ColonelPete said:

Map design could play a role. Many agree that high tier maps are too open and make cruiser life harder.

But I am not sure that changing the map design will change class numbers much, since using terrain to your advantage is a sign of skilled play and that is not common.

I'd tend to agree with the higher tier maps being very open. I still remember one game where I got spotted while playing on a map that had all landmasses in the mid part of the map, the top part and bottom part being without islands, and I was running for half the game while trying to evade shots from far away.

I think making changes to maps will help to a degree, particularly the gameplay that requires parking a cruiser behind an island and spamming HE and perhaps even yoloing DDs who try to rush from around a corner :P

Having a map that is more like a maze of islands also prevents camping BBs from having a good shot from across the map.

 

Wouldn't it be interesting to have some counterpart to the Ocean map? One map filled with landmasses, being a maze of islands from border to border, bad for BBs but good for the smaller craft? Would also need good thought to prevent bad gameplay though, but perhaps worth to take into consideration.

 

On 3/5/2018 at 4:20 PM, 15JG52Adler said:

Best AAA in game = Montana

Most fire chance per minute = Conqueror

True that CA have more hydro/radar/def aaa but dont have 50% torp reduction, 100k health, ability to oneshoot dd...BB has all of that with no drawback

almost any of your response is that some other class can do something BB can do it too....but NONE OF THEM can do it all together....BB can

 

problem is here that BB can fit in all roles and made CA totally obsolete. Why do you think in clan wars number of BBs are limited to 1....because nobody would take cruiser if he can take BB. 

 

Also did i mention that some of BBs have better stealth than cruisers?

 

 

DDs need special topic to explain how they got fucked by BBs whining:

 

- detection of torps fucked, so BBs dont need to do preemptive maneuvers but still can avoid most torps when they see them

- spread....over 10 km torps spread that much that even full broadside BB will get max 2.

- stealthfire - gone

- AP before did only overpen, so 6 hits on DD would mean 5 -6 k...now 6 hits = dead DD....nothing has so deadly ammo as AP from BB that does double penetration values od DD.....in fact DDs have citadel now

- introduction to radar, hydro, double spoting planes - everything that forces DD to fire from longer range aka have bigger dispersion on their torps

 

dd can oneshoot BBs if they come to 2 km from him...and not all.....KM t10 dd if hits ALL torps (8) can not one shoot BBs

 

I agree with you that cruisers could use a helping hand. One option could be to give cruisers the option to carry both AA and hydro module at the same time. Some cruisers seem to really can make use of a RoF buff. But to me this seems more a problem with cruisers being somewhat UP then with BBs being OP.

 

And how do you measure how good the AA of a ship is? I think I'd prefer cold hard stats compared to your perhaps not unbiased opinion (no offense). And I thought Atlanta and Flint had better AA? And Montana doesn't have the AA consumable, right?

 

I mentioned before that other classes have hydro and can see torps earlier. They are smaller targets meaning a spread of torps is less likely to hit more torps then a similar spread of torps vs a BB and BBs are less agile.

 

I don't agree with you that only BB can do all that stuff you mention all together. I do agree with you that the concealment values of cruisers are a bit meh compared to BBs, but perhaps cruisers need some love here and not BBs needing some hate.

 

I had already understood that the AP shells were bugged or something?

 

Wait..DDs have citadels? Is this true or not?

 

Frankly, I don't see how stealth fire was a good thing. It seems to have been mostly annoying.

 

Like I said before, radar and hydro are more a cruiser thing. I don't see it as a problem that a very few BBs have these. I do agree that radar is very annoying for DD gameplay but perhaps this is indeed more for another topic?

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1 hour ago, 22cm said:

 

All the nefs to the other classes ( smoke nerf, etc.) were indirect BB buffs.

This one wasn't. I don't consider preventing BBs from stealth firing to be buff for them

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4 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I agree with you that cruisers could use a helping hand. One option could be to give cruisers the option to carry both AA and hydro module at the same time. Some cruisers seem to really can make use of a RoF buff. But to me this seems more a problem with cruisers being somewhat UP then with BBs being OP.

 

And how do you measure how good the AA of a ship is? I think I'd prefer cold hard stats compared to your perhaps not unbiased opinion (no offense). And I thought Atlanta and Flint had better AA? And Montana doesn't have the AA consumable, right?

 

I mentioned before that other classes have hydro and can see torps earlier. They are smaller targets meaning a spread of torps is less likely to hit more torps then a similar spread of torps vs a BB and BBs are less agile.

 

I don't agree with you that only BB can do all that stuff you mention all together. I do agree with you that the concealment values of cruisers are a bit meh compared to BBs, but perhaps cruisers need some love here and not BBs needing some hate.

 

I had already understood that the AP shells were bugged or something?

 

Wait..DDs have citadels? Is this true or not?

 

Frankly, I don't see how stealth fire was a good thing. It seems to have been mostly annoying.

 

Like I said before, radar and hydro are more a cruiser thing. I don't see it as a problem that a very few BBs have these. I do agree that radar is very annoying for DD gameplay but perhaps this is indeed more for another topic?

AAA is pure math....you calculate DPS from all sources and all talents and Montana is the king here....yes in def AAA window DM is king, but in pure AAA power Monty rules.....also AP bombes oneshotes DM but does low dmg to Monty...so overall strongest AAA on a ship is on Monty.

 

DD does not have citadel, but right now, and it is not from last patch but it last almost a year+ now AP from dd does multiple pen values....so if regular pen dmg from AP is 3-4 k it can douple pen DD and do 8 k without problem, that is like DD have citadel but only for BBs.

 

Stealthfire probably was not needed but it was another + to BBs.

 

BBs need change in gameplay, they need to be be more rewarded for tanking, and less for 20 KM HE spam.

They need to use more of team play for DD protection than their own tools.

 

Right now we have situation like this.

 

CV almost nonexistent

CA – obsolete because anything CA can do, BB can do it too, but with less risk of instaglibing.

DD – fitted to role of spotter and capper if there are caps in game.

 

And that is why this meta is called BBs meta. BBs rules high seas, and also BBs right now host biggest amount of idiots who have no idea how to play game because they don’t need skill to live longest and to do for them ok dmg….t 10 BBs spaming from 20km in reverse in 20 minutes will do 80.k dmg…..while any other class must work their [edited]off to do that numbers and is every time in risk of instadeath.

 

 

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2 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I'd like to know what the actual problem with BBs are supposed to be? I mean, if these players play DD instead of BB, it would probably be the same level of fail for the winning chance of that game. Even worse if my CV player is one of those BB edge camping persons and the CV player on the other side is a routinier.

So when it comes to edge camping, I don't really understand why it's so bad to edge camp in a BB when fail carrieing is probably even worse and fail-DDing is also likely to be just as bad.

 

The reason why DDs (and CVs) has so much impact on matches is related to the state cruisers are in. Big numbers of BBs in queue forces matchmaking to put 5 battleships per team on most matches and leaves only 7 spots for other 3 classes (DDs, cruisers and one/two carriers). This leads to matches where not only there are small amount of cruisers (because match filled with BBs and DDs), but those cruisers that already are in the match cant effectively use their radars/hydro/def AA/high HE dpm to help destroyers because of threat that those 5 enemy BBs pose.

 

And that is BB meta:

 

DDs fighting each other on their own without support from cruisers means that team with better DDs has huge advantage.

 

Due to CVs hard countering DDs, every match with 5 BBs and a CV is decided by how well carriers play, because again cruiser cant help DDs on cap with defAA.

 

This situation is further bolstered by the fact that BBs with radar, hydro and good AA exists, making some cruisers obsolete; eg. why play Moskva when you can play Missouri.

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55 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Yes and all the nerfs to BBs (including smoke nerf) were indirect non-BB buffs.

 

You can't consider change of detection in smoke while firing a nerf to BBs. Not a single one of BBs, for now, have its own smoke or it is balanced around it. RN Cruisers and DDs are designed to use smoke and they sacrifice something for it. It is essential for their survival and gameplay. BBs just like any other class previously could use/abuse someone else smoke  but it is not their primary tool.

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1 minute ago, fumtu said:

 

You can't consider change of detection in smoke while firing a nerf to BBs. Not a single one of BBs, for now, have its own smoke or it is balanced around it. RN Cruisers and DDs are and they sacrifice something for smoke. It is essential for their survival and gameplay. BBs just like any other class previously could use/abuse someone else smoke  but it is not their primary tool.

You can't consider it a buff either. While i do agree with what you've said, as soon as you had a competent DD on your team he could smoke up half of your team and make it almost invincible for a duration. It sure happened often enough

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27 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I agree with you that cruisers could use a helping hand. One option could be to give cruisers the option to carry both AA and hydro module at the same time. Some cruisers seem to really can make use of a RoF buff. But to me this seems more a problem with cruisers being somewhat UP then with BBs being OP.

 

And how do you measure how good the AA of a ship is? I think I'd prefer cold hard stats compared to your perhaps not unbiased opinion (no offense). And I thought Atlanta and Flint had better AA? And Montana doesn't have the AA consumable, right?

 

I mentioned before that other classes have hydro and can see torps earlier. They are smaller targets meaning a spread of torps is less likely to hit more torps then a similar spread of torps vs a BB and BBs are less agile.

 

I don't agree with you that only BB can do all that stuff you mention all together. I do agree with you that the concealment values of cruisers are a bit meh compared to BBs, but perhaps cruisers need some love here and not BBs needing some hate.

 

I had already understood that the AP shells were bugged or something?

 

Wait..DDs have citadels? Is this true or not?

 

Frankly, I don't see how stealth fire was a good thing. It seems to have been mostly annoying.

 

Like I said before, radar and hydro are more a cruiser thing. I don't see it as a problem that a very few BBs have these. I do agree that radar is very annoying for DD gameplay but perhaps this is indeed more for another topic?

DDs and cruisers are (usually) more nimble than BBs, but even single torpedo hit can be crippling do them. AP suffers from occasional "multiple detonation" bug, when shell basically explodes twice/thrice and deal multiple (or random at times) amount of damage.

 

DDs have no citadel, but regular penetration from BB AP shell deals damage comparable to one. And with hightier, rather big DDs regular pens are quite common if target angles away. If DD stays broadside then she will catch more shells for overpens, lose/lose situation. And you can't be angled/broadside to all 5 BBs, nor track them all AND DDs/cruisers you're up against now.

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1 minute ago, domen3 said:

You can't consider it a buff either. While i do agree with what you've said, as soon as you had a competent DD on your team he could smoke up half of your team and make it almost invincible for a duration. It sure happened often enough

 

I didn't say it is a buff and I definitely don't consider it as a buff. BBs lost possibility so somewhat abuse mechanic that they are not intended to use in the first place. Yes BBs now basically could use smoke only to brake contact and repair if they could before resume fighting. But still it isn't a nerf. They are not balanced to fight from smoke like the ships that have it in the first place which trade something for that.

 

Smoke changes did impact teamplay significantly tho and now dds usually use it more selfishly, but BBs and cruisers that can't smoke are playing the same now as they did when they didn't have any access to smoke from team. So they can't consider it as a nerf directly but as a some kind of "nerf" to more effective teamplay.

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Outright, IMO, the issue is BB popularity, there are so many of them being played because we the players prefer them en masse to the other classes in the game. Hence the soft cap of 5 per game. In detail, each nerf to non-BB's is portrayed as a buff to all BB's, which they are indirectly. There have been more nerfs hitting other ships/classes than BB's, hence the vitriol.

 

In reality, the whole premise of the game is difficult to balance, CV's should totally dominate a battle (rl classes 1941+), followed by the BB's, with the CA's and DD's tasked with scouting and protecting the BB's from their equivalents. Which is why the game attempts the rock paper scissors approach to balancing classes, which may work if the numbers crunch correctly, but they don't usually.

 

Some ships used to be able to invisible fire (CA's and DD's), but that was taken away (which I agree with) as on balance it was detrimental to overall gameplay. This was a 'buff' to BB's more than any other beneficiary as they suffered the most from it.

 

Invisible firing torps are not so bad as they can be dodged or avoided in the first place, WASD 'hacks', (with a hard look towards deepwater torps here). WG have tried a number of approaches to torpedo's none of which brought about a broad concensus, jury is out on deepwater, we'll see how those work out, but seem to be fairly well received at present.

 

Anyways, the game is fun and engaging regardless :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, eliastion said:

If the limit was 3, that would be the case. It's not.

 

Basically, it's not about BBs being too powerful - or even about 5 BBs being a disaster. It would be perfectly fine to see 5 BBs (or, hell, even more) per team once in a while. But the number of BBs ensures that 5 BBs per team are the norm. Sometimes it's 4. I don't say that low BB matches don't happen but they are very rare - and that's what the term "BB meta" or more precisely "BB-heavy meta" comes from. This situation breeds pathology in the game, where bow-tanking is all-important, pushing in means exposing broadside (because you can't angle against whole enemy fleet when you're close), cruisers need to spend the match hidden behind islands. Btw, one of the by-products of the BB-heavy meta is also overrepresentation of DDs because cruisers can't threaten them properly (too risky with all these BBs). So we end up with loads of torpboats hoping to prey on BBs - and loads of gunboats who're there to hunt these torpboats.

 

Although, I must say, I don't believe (low) hard caps on classes would really save the day - I like the idea of there being 5+ BBs and/or 5+ DDs... only I'd like these situations to be a rare special match rather than something that happens every other game.

 

Yep, 5 BBs and 5 DDs in tier X matches is an all too common occurrence, which basically means the team that wins the DD fight ultimately wins the game.

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33 minutes ago, philjd said:

Some ships used to be able to invisible fire (CA's and DD's), but that was taken away (which I agree with) as on balance it was detrimental to overall gameplay. This was a 'buff' to BB's more than any other beneficiary as they suffered the most from it.

 

Wasn't playing the game during that meta phase, but being hit by invisible tank fire in WoT can be extremely annoying. Problem is, as soon as a cruiser opens fire now, it is lit up to the entire map. A hail of fire from the entire enemy team rains in, so now they play more defensively than the BB's. Chances are, the cruiser is going to be broadside to a BB not visible before it opened fire.

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2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

only BB can with one shell do 8-9 k to DD

No it can not. Highest AP shell dmg in game is 14900 which would leave 4967 dmg as the highest dmg per 1 shells penetration.

 

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

the most powerful AAA on ship is on BB

Just wondering - aren't Minotaur and DesMemes better than Montana at AA? plus Bbs don't get DefAA which is a massive gamechanger

 

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

Highest firestarter in game is BB

Per single salvo? Yeah, probably. per minute? BBs compared to CAs - that's not even a competition

 

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

BB have best armor

No way, weren't DDs supposed to carry more armour than BBs?!?!?!

 

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

BB have best health

Naah, small ships like DDs should have 500k hp at least! I mean, DD can tank a whole fleet, BBs should be going down to a single hit!

 

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

BB have radar/hydro/deff AAA

*Only Missouri

*Only DoY, Bismark, FDG, GK

*Uh... Hood I guess? None of the others have it

 

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

BB have best torp protection.

Noooo, can't be! DDs have torpedo bulges 3 times larger than the ships iself, how come they don't get it?!?!

 

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

BB has best heal in game

BB has most range

BB has most health

to kill BB in 2 minutes you need focusfire from 4 ships

Straight up wrong.

When comparing a "normal" heal cruisers have it identical except that they can heal 23% extra citadel dmg

When comparing RN superheals, while RN CLs get 10% less repair from pens than RN BBs they get 40% extra citadel healing

And then of course there's Colorado which has a normal heal but can randomly heal extra 3% over others

So effectively cruisers actually have the best heals

 

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

BB has most range

I wonder why DDs 100mm hand-loaded shell doesn't go as far as a BBs shell :cap_yes: no way it's something to do with things like propellant behind it

 

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

BB has most health

to kill BB in 2 minutes you need focusfire from 4 ships

Or a spread of torps just like on any other ship

 

2 hours ago, 22cm said:

The last and the most recent buff for a ship was for a BB, Gascogne getting 2 seconds shorter reload.

Gascogne has not been changed since its release, at least not to my knowledge. Most recent buff you ask?

 

patch 0.7.2

flag_Japan.pngpremium.pngVIII HSF Harekaze: Turret rotation speed increased from 6 deg/s to 6.9 deg/s for the hull "Harekaze 1-4". This will allow the destroyer to deal more damage with her main battery while actively manoeuvring and avoiding enemies' salvos.

 

Is Herakaze a BB now? :fish_book:

 

2 hours ago, 22cm said:

smoke nerf, etc.) were indirect BB buffs.

Go ahead now, explain how removing BBs ability to use any smoke is a buff. Please do :Smile_teethhappy:

 

1 hour ago, 15JG52Adler said:

Most fire chance per minute = Conqueror

Assuming you run 419s with DE, both fire flags and MBM3 and your target is a CV without DCSM1 or FP you get the potential off 10.47 fires / min. That's the highest any BB can go.

 

DesMemes without MBM3, without DE, without fire flags shooting at that CV - 10.99 fires. First cruiser I picked, as low of a fire chance as it could get against that same target and you already have more than Conq can do. Good job on that fail m8 :Smile_sceptic:

 

1 hour ago, 15JG52Adler said:

but dont have 50% torp reduction

Uhh, Apart from Yamato and Musashi - is there any other BB with 50%? Don't think so. Most are somewhere between 20 and 30 %

 

1 hour ago, 15JG52Adler said:

AP from dd does multiple pen values....

Because of a bug any ship can fire an AP shell against any target that will do damage of multiple hits. It's in no way limited to DDs.

 

1 hour ago, 15JG52Adler said:

Stealthfire probably was not needed but it was another + to BBs.

Yeah, all those shatters from DDs on BBs "hurt" so badly. Oh wait, no they didn't. Problem is that a ship going full speed while it's undetected can't be hit back - thus if you are firing but your target can't do anything about it there is no counterplay to it. And no counterplay is synonymous with a "toxic mechanic", even if it doesn't do much.

There are 2 similar ways to stealthfire. Smoke is a very limited and very obvious area, you can't keep running full speed through it. And islands require some actual knowledge of your ship and the map - plus you will be stationary so as soon as you're spotted - you're probably screwed.

 

1 hour ago, 15JG52Adler said:

they need to be be more rewarded for tanking

Now this finally is something I agree with you on. Yet according to WGs decision in 0.6.7 to nerf it that's not seen as the case

 

 

 

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