Buff needed to middle tier dds?

[loppantorkel]

Just a reflection since the release of French bbs which seem great vs cruisers. Tier 5-7 have been low on dds for a while but lately having no dds in game these tiers isn't uncommon. I've played Pan Asian dds tier 5-6 some games and they seem ok, but there are few other dds these tiers I'm tempted to play.

Cruisers tier 5-6 are in a pretty bad spot and it seems even tier 7 is worse off now, not to mention tier 8. If you choose to play cruiser tier 5-7 with 0-1 dds in game you play scissors against rock with no paper. Too many tiers are becoming restricted where you can perform well in cruisers.

 

Lots of complaint about high tier gameplay, but I think tier 5-7 need to be looked at before and especially the why the match ups are looking the way the do lately. I think dds tier 5-7 need an overall buff to counter bbs and make them more viable. It would also put the light cruisers tier 5-7 in a better spot. What's your opinion?

[Tekacko]

The problem with Tier 5/6 ships comes from bad MM, and not the ships being necessarily bad.

 

Tier 7 is, IMO, perfectly fine. Great MM and very solid ships (Fiji, Myoko, Shchors). I can´t think of any tier 7 ship that would require a buff.

 

A slight buff would maybe be appropriate for mid tier IJN DDs (looking at you, Hatsuharu), which I found to be quite a pain in the backside. The torps are simply bad, and the proliferation of mid tier CVs (often 2 per team), makes playing IJN DDs at those tiers a complete headache.

[Kenliero]

Yeah Farragut needs a buff. My winrate has already dropped from 84% to 80% (solo games in Asia account) Such weak ships.. also Kamikaze is very very weak...

 

To be fair, It is just few ships that are relatively weak due to their inconsistancy in hitting with torps... like IJN T6-8 for example. ..

[loppantorkel]

10 minutes ago, Kenliero said:

Yeah Farragut needs a buff. My winrate has already dropped from 84% to 80% (solo games in Asia account) Such weak ships.. also Kamikaze is very very weak...

 

To be fair, It is just few ships that are relatively weak due to their inconsistancy in hitting with torps... like IJN T6-8 for example. ..

You're bringing an Asia account and a removed OP ship into the argument..? I might have a better case than I thought.

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, Kenliero said:

Yeah Farragut needs a buff. My winrate has already dropped from 84% to 80% (solo games in Asia account) Such weak ships.. also Kamikaze is very very weak...

 

To be fair, It is just few ships that are relatively weak due to their inconsistancy in hitting with torps... like IJN T6-8 for example. ..

Really? That's impressive.

 

I have another solo account too (NA), went to mahan with around 65% in farragut.

 

It indeed is a very strong boat, but it sees tier 8 quite regularly, and that concealment difference (no module) is huge. Also, it is in typical belfast matchmaking tiers. How did you get that high? Nice though.

---

 

2 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

dds tier 5-6

 

Concerning topic. Limiting myself to t5-7

 

- t22 will be a turd forever in my opinion. I barely had any freexp on that account, but I spent it all to bypass that PoS after a handful games.

- I don't think minekaze/mutsuki are decent. A lot has to do with their matchmaking and quite a lot of cv, but even then, bleh.

 

 

Besides those I don't seem to recall any as particularly underpowered. There will probably be some nerds here to defend my list of dds from hell above

 

 

2 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Cruisers tier 5-6

 

Furutaka is a turd. Yea, good torp arcs. Yea, sometimes you can shoot AP on those idiots that still play cruiser. Still...

 

I never played Emerald myself, but people have certain feelings about it

 

York feels extremely underpowered after (re)discovering the monster that is Nurnberg.

 

===

 

 

Most of the ships in tier 5/6 just hurt from matchmaking. On NA there is an extreme amount of missouri spam, which drags tier 7 a lot into the joy of +2 mm too. I had a lot of Mahan and Yorck in tier 9, not a fan...

[loppantorkel]

18 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

Most of the ships in tier 5/6 just hurt from matchmaking. On NA there is an extreme amount of missouri spam, which drags tier 7 a lot into the joy of +2 mm too. I had a lot of Mahan and Yorck in tier 9, not a fan...

Maybe. I'll start a few tier 5-6 games too see what mm looks like. If it's 5 bbs per team and rest is cruisers aside from 0-1 dds per team, I still think there might be an issue.

[Prospect_b]

6 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

If it's 5 bbs per team and rest is cruisers aside from 0-1 dds per team, I still think there might be an issue.

I don't understand this comment.

 

 

part 1. 5 bbs per team is a given in 95% of the games, for a long while now. (I played since autumn 16, never knew anything else)

 

 

part 2. For BOTH the types of ships you started this thread for, your description (most cruisers except 0-1 dd) is pure heaven.

 

For a cruiser all those enemy cruisers are very good targets, while few dds means you won't be spotted too soon/too much.

For a DD it means there is none or only that one enemy dd that can spot you, so you can do all the fun dd stuff in peace.

 

 

Or am I misunderstanding smt? Where's the issue?

[PzAbteilung]

high tier dds are worst, they are always indanger due to radars, enemy dds, and aircraft.

[loppantorkel]

18 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

Or am I misunderstanding smt? Where's the issue?

I think there's an issue if there are next to none dds in the games. I'm playing a few games in Pan Asian dds, and I'm not complaining. It's more of reflection that for some reason people are avoiding dds in middle tier. Maybe they're having too much fun, idk.

[Prospect_b]

10 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

I think there's an issue if there are next to none dds in the games. I'm playing a few games in Pan Asian dds, and I'm not complaining. It's more of reflection that for some reason people are avoiding dds in middle tier. Maybe they're having too much fun, idk.

Well, for me the reasons not to continue playing dds from 5-7 once I unlocked the higher tiers, are

 

- the risk on bad matchmaking, as I said above. besides inherent advantages (better health, better firepower/torps), the higher tiers have way better concealment

(in essence, why would I play a mid tier dd when I have a higher and better tier dd of that same line?)

- too much carriers, which mainly is bad for that risk of me getting the saipan that has played 40 battles in total versus the good or better kaga (or whatever)

- too much belfast

 

 

edit:

 

- too much standard battles!!! (<< this one is huge for me, can't believe I forgot about it)

 

 

 

I would be curious to know if other people have other reasons that those too.

 

 

But if you meet 0 or 1 dds on these tiers all day, plz lemme know, I might take out my shino :P

[eliastion]

The only real problem middle tier DDs have is rooted in the extra upgrade slot acquired at t8 that gives you a concealment mod (and therefore better stealth than t6-7 counterparts. T8 DDs with decent (or better) anti-DD capabilities have a RIDICULOUS advantage over lower tiers, especially the fragile torpboats of t6-7 are screwed.

 

And as for MM set-up? We currently have

 - some missions that require you to play French ships

 - new BB line

 - missions that rely on main battery hits

 

Basically, it's a combo that ensures loads of french BBs, loads of french cruisers - plus some light cruisers of other nations. DDs are pretty much discouraged, because:

1. There are almost no French DDs

2. DDs that benefit from loads and loads of BBs are the torpboats that don't exactly score main battery hits

3. Increased numbers of cruisers, guaranteed 5v5 BBs and not that many torpboats (because missions) mean that gunboats aren't too inviting either.

Basically, we're seeing relatively few DDs but this tells us more about the event at hand than about DD balance.

[loppantorkel]

1 minute ago, PzychoPanzer said:

Well, for me the reasons not to continue playing dds from 5-7 once I unlocked the higher tiers, are

 

- the risk on bad matchmaking, as I said above. besides inherent advantages (better health, better firepower/torps), the higher tiers have way better concealment

(in essence, why would I play a mid tier dd when I have a higher and better tier dd of that same line?)

- too much carriers, which mainly is bad for that risk of me getting the saipan that has played 40 battles in total versus the good or better kaga (or whatever)

- too much belfast

 

I would be curious to know if other people have other reasons that those too.

 

 

But if you meet 0 or 1 dds on these tiers all day, plz lemme know, I might take out my shino :P

3dds in total this game. Seems to vary, but in low numbers. I don't see much reason to play dds these tiers either, aside from progressing. I think there should be a better spot for dds in these tiers to fill though.

[loppantorkel]

18 minutes ago, eliastion said:

The only real problem middle tier DDs have is rooted in the extra upgrade slot acquired at t8 that gives you a concealment mod (and therefore better stealth than t6-7 counterparts. T8 DDs with decent (or better) anti-DD capabilities have a RIDICULOUS advantage over lower tiers, especially the fragile torpboats of t6-7 are screwed.

 

And as for MM set-up? We currently have

 - some missions that require you to play French ships

 - new BB line

 - missions that rely on main battery hits

 

Basically, it's a combo that ensures loads of french BBs, loads of french cruisers - plus some light cruisers of other nations. DDs are pretty much discouraged, because:

1. There are almost no French DDs

2. DDs that benefit from loads and loads of BBs are the torpboats that don't exactly score main battery hits

3. Increased numbers of cruisers, guaranteed 5v5 BBs and not that many torpboats (because missions) mean that gunboats aren't too inviting either.

Basically, we're seeing relatively few DDs but this tells us more about the event at hand than about DD balance.

Yea, I figured the release of French bbs comes into play. I still think that dds in 5-7 are in a rough spot, which in turn make cruisers in the same tiers less interesting, save a few gems. Maybe not an issue in the end. Maybe the US cruiser split will solve the dd issue once and for all.

 

edit: ..and yes, the Concealment mod + high tier captain give a ridiculous advantage...

[Butterdoll]

2 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Just a reflection since the release of French bbs which seem great vs cruisers. Tier 5-7 have been low on dds for a while but lately having no dds in game these tiers isn't uncommon. I've played Pan Asian dds tier 5-6 some games and they seem ok, but there are few other dds these tiers I'm tempted to play.

Cruisers tier 5-6 are in a pretty bad spot and it seems even tier 7 is worse off now, not to mention tier 8. If you choose to play cruiser tier 5-7 with 0-1 dds in game you play scissors against rock with no paper. Too many tiers are becoming restricted where you can perform well in cruisers.

 

Lots of complaint about high tier gameplay, but I think tier 5-7 need to be looked at before and especially the why the match ups are looking the way the do lately. I think dds tier 5-7 need an overall buff to counter bbs and make them more viable. It would also put the light cruisers tier 5-7 in a better spot. What's your opinion?

 

From what I've been seeing French bbs suck balls, they don't hold a candle against other bbs especially against Germans and possible Americans.

Leave t6 ship out of this, but I agree with you about t5, there are good ships but they are not prepared to go against t7s .

t7 ships are not that special, overall they are kind of a strait downgrade, a far cry from t6 ships, maybe they are the "sweet spot" because they go against t5s, a transition tier.

yeah, yesterday was a day with very few dds and a lot bbs, I've had teams with no dds at all, and... well even with premium camo and concealment a cl still isn't as good as a dd.

Perhaps dds needs a buff.

37 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

- I don't think minekaze/mutsuki are decent. A lot has to do with their matchmaking and quite a lot of cv, but even then, bleh

 

you, know, I suck in dds big time.

I think they are not for me, the last time I took one out, Nicholas or something I tried to brawl a Emil bretin.

But I regret the time I decided to start the us line, they were "sold" as gun boats but you know what? their guns sucks big time.

Instead I should went for the IJN line, Akatsuki and the other one that can have 3 different guns .

Or going for the germans.

 

45 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

Furutaka is a turd. Yea, good torp arcs. Yea, sometimes you can shoot AP on those idiots that still play cruiser. Still...

 

I never played Emerald myself, but people have certain feelings about it

 

York feels extremely underpowered after (re)discovering the monster that is Nurnberg.

 

Sorry, there must be a typo or you confused Furutaka with Pensa. Wrong line, wrong ship, wrong tier. The TURD lives in t7 in US line.

And thanks for calling me a idiot.

Furutaka only needs a buff in turret rotation and in ROF to be a brawling monster, and be able to clean the caps zones from dds, it's a tough little bastard, I like it.

I don't play it for a while now but it's a good ship, I have no interest in Zao, ibuki and I think I will not reach Mogami.

Myoko, most probably, it's the ship that will make me stop the IJN grind.

So perhaps, I will go back to furutaka sooner than I though. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prospect_b]

17 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

And thanks for calling me a idiot.

I play cruiser more than anything else, you know ;)

 

So calling "you" an idiot, might be ironic.

 

18 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

I took one out, Nicholas or something I tried to brawl a Emil bretin.

Although it would be less ironic if I said it as respons to this

[Capra76]

Data isn't out for the latest week but for example w/e 10/02/2018 T5-8 DD were all below 20% of games played at their tier.  Even for a good week (24/02/2018) they're struggling to break through 25% (T5 managed 27.9%, all others below) and I have seen other weeks in the past where it was below 15% at some tiers.

 

To put these numbers in context, in 12 v 12 MM 25% gives you 3 DD per side but natural variation is going to give you 3 v 2 games and sometimes 2 v 1, which is a problematic in the first instance and a serious problem in the second.  Once you dip below 20% you're looking at an average of 2 DD per side, which is going to give you lots of 2 v 1 games and even some 1 v 0.

 

Personally I think the OP has a point, even in good weeks the population is barely adequate for "healthy" MM, in bad weeks you're down at levels where MM can hand very significant advantages to one side or the other.

[Butterdoll]

26 minutes ago, PzychoPanzer said:

I play cruiser more than anything else, you know ;)

 

So calling "you" an idiot, might be ironic.

 

Although it would be less ironic if I said it as respons to this

 

Man, in my defence.  At the spur of the moment I was in the wrong type of ship . That's all.

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

The only DD buff I would like to see is Minekaze getting back her pre-nerf torpedoes.

[Nechrom]

Aside from tier 8 I think that mid tier DDs as a whole are in a good place, and tier 8 is mostly rough due to up-tiering.

 

Been playing lots of Aigle over this and the last patch and I have seen a healthy number of DDs for the most part. One battle as solo DD, one battle with me and one enemy DD, a couple of battles 1 v 2 and the remaining vast majority of battles 2 v 2 or more.

[ArkSyve]

 

4 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Just a reflection since the release of French bbs which seem great vs cruisers. Tier 5-7 have been low on dds for a while but lately having no dds in game these tiers isn't uncommon. I've played Pan Asian dds tier 5-6 some games and they seem ok, but there are few other dds these tiers I'm tempted to play.

Cruisers tier 5-6 are in a pretty bad spot and it seems even tier 7 is worse off now, not to mention tier 8. If you choose to play cruiser tier 5-7 with 0-1 dds in game you play scissors against rock with no paper. Too many tiers are becoming restricted where you can perform well in cruisers.

 

Lots of complaint about high tier gameplay, but I think tier 5-7 need to be looked at before and especially the why the match ups are looking the way the do lately. I think dds tier 5-7 need an overall buff to counter bbs and make them more viable. It would also put the light cruisers tier 5-7 in a better spot. What's your opinion?

 

From my mid-tier experience i have to disagree with you on one point: the lack of DDs per game.

 

Sure, every now and then I have a game with few to no DDs in it, but these are pretty rare. I always meet a healthy amount of DDs per game, especially with all the torpedo centric missions lately.

Imo 2-3 DDs per side is perfect, and this is what I get when there's no mission forcing everyone to take their torpedobote out.

Cruisers on the other side are pretty rare...

 

 

However I do agree on the fact that some regular detroyers in the T5-7 bracket could do with some love.

I play the Germans and the Soviet at those tiers, let's break down on what I think of each:

 

T-22 I enjoyed, surprisingly, could do with some better concealment maybe ;

Gaede is meh when it comes to maneuvrability and specifically acceleration, she also eats a ton of pen damage from BBs (reeeeee) ;

Maass is fine, she has strenght and weaknesses and is fun to play ;

 

Podvoisky was unfun, can only go for the surprise arround the corner torp rush, and the guns aren't really comfortable to use either. Ends up being good at contesting caps only ;

Gnevny suffers from similar problems as Podvoisky, my biggest gripe is the horrible turret traverse, also suffers a ton from uptiering ;

Minsk I don't own yet, but doesn't look groundbreaking either. I should stress I don't have AFT on my commander as EM is mandatory along LS ;

 

Isokaze is also in my port, not really enjoying it, nor am Iooking forward to Minekaze, I wouldn't mind shitty guns if the torpedoes were more comfortable ;

I also own Gallant, she's nice but could do with a little something torp wise.

 

Now onto the other lines and what I can tell from encountering them: 

 

The Pan-Asian are definitely doing (too?) good, Gadjah and Fushun are fairly strong and Jianwei is competitive ;

IJN boats on the other hand look like a massive struggle, only Shiratsuyu and Fubuki seem enjoyable, buffs are needed ; 

US DDs are doing ok, good close range fighters, torpedoes are a bit weak at T5-6, statistics would imply small buffs are welcome.

 

 

In short:

-DD population is fine

-Buffs are required on specific ships, but not on the class as a whole

 

 

[Mayv]

1 hour ago, PzychoPanzer said:

- the risk on bad matchmaking, as I said above. besides inherent advantages (better health, better firepower/torps), the higher tiers have way better concealment

 

Tier 8 is definitely a tier where DDs see a big jump in power since they have access to the concealment module. It makes being bottom tier in tier 6 and 7 DDs a difficult experience.

[Capra76]

19 minutes ago, ArkSyve said:

Podvoisky was unfun, can only go for the surprise arround the corner torp rush, and the guns aren't really comfortable to use either. Ends up being good at contesting caps only ;

Gnevny suffers from similar problems as Podvoisky, my biggest gripe is the horrible turret traverse, also suffers a ton from uptiering ;

Minsk I don't own yet, but doesn't look groundbreaking either. I should stress I don't have AFT on my commander as EM is mandatory along LS ;

 

The problem with the Russians at T5-7 is that (IMO) you need a 12 point captain with CE and EM to be competetive.  I'm not sold on AFT until later tiers when you can afford to drop CE and specifically Khaba that has a fairly short base range but also gets higher muzzle velocity to allow it to hit out to 14 km.

 

 

[Tekacko]

1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

 

The problem with the Russians at T5-7 is that (IMO) you need a 12 point captain with CE and EM to be competetive.  I'm not sold on AFT until later tiers when you can afford to drop CE and specifically Khaba that has a fairly short base range but also gets higher muzzle velocity to allow it to hit out to 14 km.

 

 

I completely skipped CE and went for AFT right away when grinding.

 

CE on the gunboat line is completely useless, you need AFT ASAP to be able to play the boats the way they are supposed to be played.

[GulvkluderGuld]

Lets look at the DD lines:

- Germans: T22 is a massive Turd. Gaede and Maas are ok (useable torps)

- USN: finished the line > 1 year ago; Mahan and farragut used to be copies with crap torps but stealth fire compensated. I imagine they still do ok as cap contesters, but hard to carry in them. Nicholas is great.

- IJN: Minekaze fine,  the T6s are turds, while T7 are monsters (shiratsuyu looking at you)

- Russians: Used to be a pain untill Gnevny; See below

Pan-Asian: T5 Jianwei is a massive turd (like T22); T6 is good, T7 is a monter

 

 

16 minutes ago, Tekacko said:

I completely skipped CE and went for AFT right away when grinding.

 

CE on the gunboat line is completely useless, you need AFT ASAP to be able to play the boats the way they are supposed to be played.

 

Played Russian DDs when Kiev was OP before the split (and captain rework that allowed CE) so my knowledge is a bit outdated. 

Still. Gnevny (or anshan & other clones) and some other midtier dds used to benefit from CE. It was not untill Kiev at t7 (now T8) that AFT became mandatory. It all depends on whether they can reach concealment within 200-300 m of the USN line. If yes, then CE is a valid option, if not AFT is probably better. You see that in the split lines too.

(Ognevoi) Udaloi and Grozevoi with CE is very viable (use AFT+CE and drop some 3 point perks, SE or SI comes to mind).

Khaba with CE is a complete waste on the other hand.

 

[Tekacko]

1 hour ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Played Russian DDs when Kiev was OP before the split (and captain rework that allowed CE) so my knowledge is a bit outdated. 

Still. Gnevny (or anshan & other clones) and some other midtier dds used to benefit from CE. It was not untill Kiev at t7 (now T8) that AFT became mandatory. It all depends on whether they can reach concealment within 200-300 m of the USN line. If yes, then CE is a valid option, if not AFT is probably better. You see that in the split lines too.

(Ognevoi) Udaloi and Grozevoi with CE is very viable (use AFT+CE and drop some 3 point perks, SE or SI comes to mind).

Khaba with CE is a complete waste on the other hand.

 

 

That´s why I said it is obsolete on the Gunboat line.

 

And why would I ever want to use the Gnevny as a cap contester? Worse firepower than USN, worse smokes, terrible traverse.

Can´t stealthtorp either.

 

0 synergy with CE