Nerf mid-tier BBs

[GulvkluderGuld]

Been back grinding my Budyoni and Galassoniere and holy crap mid-tier cruisers are an agony.

Tier 1-5 and 9-10 are mostly fine. It is tier 6-8 that are free xp pinatas for the BB clickers. Only RN cruisers are exempted.

 

One citpen 12-13k dmg - budyoni only has 30k hp, so that is close to 50%. Now add BB dispersion and 5-6 BBs on each team.

Been kiting on flanks at max range meaning 14+ km (14 because when I close to shoot, that is how close they get while I turn the boat to kite).

 

Had a tirpitz (with good aim, granted) blap me from 14.15 kms with a cit at the start, because I got spotted for 3-4s behind my island - Hotspots A cap south side. I angle, I keep on the move w+s hacks. 

Ok that kind of thing happens with RNGesus when you get spotted (1st mistake?)

After another 4-5 mins of farming BB tears using spotter plane for extended range,  the same tirpitz manages to push around the 1-3 line of islands (a bit close tho, 12 km, so 2nd mistake)

I am perfectly angled showing only my stern gun and yet I get citadeled again. Next volley obviously is the end since there is only 3-5 k hp left and no way to flee or go unspotted.

 

Yes Tirpitz is tier 8, but similar stuff happened with my Galassoniere and a Normandie & Arizona just the previous game, and I bet it happens to you guys too.

 

Getting 40-50k dmg feels like an endless struggle.

CA/CL gets punished with no ability to heal and are allowed 1-2 mistakes before dying, while BBs can sail around BBQ for several minutes and still withdraw laughing and recover 50% hp.

BBs are so tanky these days they dont bother with each other, untill the cruisers are dead. 

They get fire prevention so they dont have to worry about HE, plus a heal to mend scratched paint.

Wg removed their citadels and gave the poor BB cruiser level concealment.

Newest among WGs idea is the Roma with 45 mm plating, because BBs fire prevention isnt enough. BBs really cant be allowed to even take damage from HE (let alone IFHE).

Meanwhile, they have the biggest damage potential of any class (barring CVs which is an even bigger mess).

 

How about just removing cruisers from the game, WG?

It is really any wonder the game is so full of BB spam?

 

/rant

[FishDogFoodShack]

I'd argue that most t8 cruisers are actually pretty on the level. Mogami, Chapayev, Charles Martel and Edinburgh are all very competitive, but take a good amount of skill to play well. The only ugly ducks are New Orleans and Hipper, which soon will be replaced at it's tier and receive a buff, respectively.

T7 (silver) cruisers on the other hand I've never managed to enjoy. I'd be perfectly fine with most, if not all cruisers getting at least marginally better belt protection so that they can reward skilled play by angling instead of being perpetually overmatched, something you mention happening to you here.

That said, even I find getting above your mentioned 50k dmg a cakewalk at t8, so perhaps a decent dose of git gud is needed as well.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Budjohnny...

Gallifrey...

Glasscannon...

 

See the similarity? Doesn't need a Tripitz to blow big, phat holes into them... even other cruisers can, and will, do that.

[ColonelPete]

I find playing midtier cruisers much easier than high tier. The maps are just more cruiser friendly.

[iJoby]

I'm a great fan of Mid-Tier cruisers, especially Russian,  and the Cleveland of course, Mid-Tier BB's do not need a nerf.

I find that when playing Mid-Tier BB's, if I am able to take 50% of a cruisers HP, he obviously wasn't watching the minimap and his situation awareness.

/replied

[GulvkluderGuld]

Thanks for you opinions. 

 

I stopped playing cruisers at tier 5-6 and changed over to BB and DD, so it may just be I dont enjoy the playstyle. They are so easily countered by any one BB or any DD (barring radar ships).

 

27 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Budjohnny...

Gallifrey...

Glasscannon...

 

See the similarity? Doesn't need a Tripitz to blow big, phat holes into them... even other cruisers can, and will, do that.

 

Leander, Cleveland, Nurnberg - yes all cruisers have flimsy armor. 

 

37 minutes ago, FishDogFoodShack said:

I'd argue that most t8 cruisers are actually pretty on the level. Mogami, Chapayev, Charles Martel and Edinburgh are all very competitive, but take a good amount of skill to play well. The only ugly ducks are New Orleans and Hipper, which soon will be replaced at it's tier and receive a buff, respectively.

 

Agreed

 

T7 (silver) cruisers on the other hand I've never managed to enjoy. I'd be perfectly fine with most, if not all cruisers getting at least marginally better belt protection so that they can reward skilled play by angling instead of being perpetually overmatched, something you mention happening to you here.

 

I think they already can angle against other CAs. Its is the BB that just wrecks them.

That said, even I find getting above your mentioned 50k dmg a cakewalk at t8, so perhaps a decent dose of git gud is needed as well.

Wouldnt deny I can get better, 50k is my average in the T6 budy.  Despite getting there without trouble, playing the thing just feels like a struggle.

 

[Butterdoll]

1 hour ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Been back grinding my Budyoni and Galassoniere and holy crap mid-tier cruisers are an agony.

Tier 1-5 and 9-10 are mostly fine. It is tier 6-8 that are free xp pinatas for the BB clickers. Only RN cruisers are exempted.

 

One citpen 12-13k dmg - budyoni only has 30k hp, so that is close to 50%. Now add BB dispersion and 5-6 BBs on each team.

Been kiting on flanks at max range meaning 14+ km (14 because when I close to shoot, that is how close they get while I turn the boat to kite).

 

Had a tirpitz (with good aim, granted) blap me from 14.15 kms with a cit at the start, because I got spotted for 3-4s behind my island - Hotspots A cap south side. I angle, I keep on the move w+s hacks. 

Ok that kind of thing happens with RNGesus when you get spotted (1st mistake?)

After another 4-5 mins of farming BB tears using spotter plane for extended range,  the same tirpitz manages to push around the 1-3 line of islands (a bit close tho, 12 km, so 2nd mistake)

I am perfectly angled showing only my stern gun and yet I get citadeled again. Next volley obviously is the end since there is only 3-5 k hp left and no way to flee or go unspotted.

 

Yes Tirpitz is tier 8, but similar stuff happened with my Galassoniere and a Normandie & Arizona just the previous game, and I bet it happens to you guys too.

 

Getting 40-50k dmg feels like an endless struggle.

CA/CL gets punished with no ability to heal and are allowed 1-2 mistakes before dying, while BBs can sail around BBQ for several minutes and still withdraw laughing and recover 50% hp.

BBs are so tanky these days they dont bother with each other, untill the cruisers are dead. 

They get fire prevention so they dont have to worry about HE, plus a heal to mend scratched paint.

Wg removed their citadels and gave the poor BB cruiser level concealment.

Newest among WGs idea is the Roma with 45 mm plating, because BBs fire prevention isnt enough. BBs really cant be allowed to even take damage from HE (let alone IFHE).

Meanwhile, they have the biggest damage potential of any class (barring CVs which is an even bigger mess).

 

How about just removing cruisers from the game, WG?

It is really any wonder the game is so full of BB spam?

 

/rant

 

 

15 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

They are so easily countered by any one BB or any DD (barring radar ships).

 

Sorry, Buddy what?

37 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Budjohnny...

Gallifrey...

Glasscannon...

 

See the similarity? Doesn't need a Tripitz to blow big, phat holes into them... even other cruisers can, and will, do that.

 

Buddy what?

 

[Butterdoll]

17 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

T7 (silver) cruisers on the other hand I've never managed to enjoy. I'd be perfectly fine with most, if not all cruisers getting at least marginally better belt protection so that they can reward skilled play by angling instead of being perpetually overmatched, something you mention happening to you here.

 

I think they already can angle against other CAs. Its is the BB that just wrecks them

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[rvfharrier]

The La Galissonniere is indeed a bit 'meh', but the Budyonny is an absolute beast of a ship which needs no help whatsoever.

 

I find T6/7 to be an absolute gold mine for great cruisers. Leander, Fiji, Budyonny, Shchors, Nurnberg, Cleveland and Myoko. All great ships! T8 cruisers are, with exceptions, still strong but do suffer from absolutely brutal MM so can understand the argument that those are an agony to play. But find it very odd you find T5 fine but not T6 and 7.

 

[GulvkluderGuld]

8 minutes ago, rvfharrier said:

The La Galissonniere is indeed a bit 'meh', but the Budyonny is an absolute beast of a ship which needs no help whatsoever.

 

I find T6/7 to be an absolute gold mine for great cruisers. Leander, Fiji, Budyonny, Shchors, Nurnberg, Cleveland and Myoko. All great ships! T8 cruisers are, with exceptions, still strong but do suffer from absolutely brutal MM so can understand the argument that those are an agony to play. But find it very odd you find T5 fine but not T6 and 7.

 

Probably because I didnt play T5 for an eternity. I hated Kirov, but Kongsberg was great. I played Omaha back before any other nations were added when it was op. Dont play IJN og french CA (got Gala in the new year event)

 

Its not so much the cruisers as it is the meta i guess =)

[BeauNidl3]

It's not the BB's stats that need a nerf, it's the sheer numbers of them that mean angling or being covered from them is about impossible which is why you see relatively few cruisers in games. They've gone from utility ships to easy ways to pad damage stats.

 

Hard cap BB's to 3 a game and the issue goes away.

[rvfharrier]

8 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Probably because I didnt play T5 for an eternity. I hated Kirov, but Kongsberg was great. I played Omaha back before any other nations were added when it was op. Dont play IJN og french CA (got Gala in the new year event)

 

Its not so much the cruisers as it is the meta i guess =)

 

Personally didn't like the Kirov that much either, although I haven't played it in ages. At any rate, while the game would indeed benefit massively from lower numbers of BBs and higher numbers of CAs/CLs in games neither the problem nor the solution really lies in balance. As you said, it's the meta.

[GulvkluderGuld]

12 minutes ago, rvfharrier said:

 

Personally didn't like the Kirov that much either, although I haven't played it in ages. At any rate, while the game would indeed benefit massively from lower numbers of BBs and higher numbers of CAs/CLs in games neither the problem nor the solution really lies in balance. As you said, it's the meta.

 

The meta is a result of balance and ease to play. Make BBs more unpopular and players will migrate to other classes. Need i say

Midway

Shimakaze

Stealthfire

 

There is a thread - BB dont even use vigilance anymore because torps arnt a credible threat.

[wilkatis_LV]

2 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

One citpen 12-13k dmg - budyoni only has 30k hp, so that is close to 50%. Now add BB dispersion and 5-6 BBs on each team.

Actually it's 10.2k dmg Fuso up to 13.1k dmg NC (and 7.6k Scharnhorst)

Then you add in BB dispersion and you realize that on average BBs land about 2 shells per salvo (so 2 shells every 30-or-so seconds), most of whom bounce / shatter / overpen

Then you add the fact that there are 4...5 BBs per team, unless you are playing at the lowest population hours of the server which would be your own fault

 

And Your argument already is massively flawed

 

2 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Had a tirpitz (with good aim, granted) blap me from 14.15 kms with a cit at the start, because I got spotted for 3-4s behind my island - Hotspots A cap south side. I angle, I keep on the move w+s hacks. 

Had a broadside cruiser about 10km from my Iowa, missed all 9 shells as like 7 of them went way low and 2 went way high.

Almost like one anecdotal example is nothing more than "this thing happened once"

 

2 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Wg removed their citadels and gave the poor BB cruiser level concealment.

Citadels are still there, learn to aim.

And didn't you say tier 9 and 10 are fine?

2 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Tier 1-5 and 9-10 are mostly fine.

Thought you did. And even then - Conq is at 11.8km - NC has been at 11.8km as far as I can remember. Almost like that's not a new thing, hmm?

And if we're speaking of those same "mid tier BBs" that you pointed out - no tier 6 and 7 BB can compare their stealth to any cruisers they meet, and only something like NC can compare with them as high tier cruisers get so large that their concealment grows up close(r) to BB levels

 

2 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Newest among WGs idea is the Roma with 45 mm plating, because BBs fire prevention isnt enough. BBs really cant be allowed to even take damage from HE (let alone IFHE).

What? You serious there or trolling?

I'm pretty sure only Izumo and RN BBs have 32mm plating everywhere (maybe there's like one more ship, but that would be exactly it - one), everyone else has increased armour values for their different belts, decks, even bows (often at 50...60mm and higher thickness). You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, do you?

 

2 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Meanwhile, they have the biggest damage potential of any class

Per single salvo, while their DPM...

 

Lets compare some randomly selected. Lets say - Amagi, Missouri and Conq with Mogami, Baltimore and Minotaur (feel free to actually compare any others)

 

Amagi  DPM - 252 000 AP / 130 000 HE

Missouri  DPM - 243 000 AP / 102 600 HE

Conq 419  DPM - 312 000 AP / 172 800 HE

Conq 457 DPM - 238 400 AP / 131 200 HE

 

Mogami 155  DPM - 297000 AP / 234000 HE

Mogami 203  DPM - 188000 AP / 132000 HE

Baltimore DPM - 270 000 AP / 151 200 HE

Minotaur  DPM - 601 600 AP

 

Oh would you look at that

[Arrive_Alive]

9 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Actually it's 10.2k dmg Fuso up to 13.1k dmg NC (and 7.6k Scharnhorst)

Then you add in BB dispersion and you realize that on average BBs land about 2 shells per salvo (so 2 shells every 30-or-so seconds), most of whom bounce / shatter / overpen

Then you add the fact that there are 4...5 BBs per team, unless you are playing at the lowest population hours of the server which would be your own fault

 

And Your argument already is massively flawed

 

Had a broadside cruiser about 10km from my Iowa, missed all 9 shells as like 7 of them went way low and 2 went way high.

Almost like one anecdotal example is nothing more than "this thing happened once"

 

Citadels are still there, learn to aim.

And didn't you say tier 9 and 10 are fine?

Thought you did. And even then - Conq is at 11.8km - NC has been at 11.8km as far as I can remember. Almost like that's not a new thing, hmm?

And if we're speaking of those same "mid tier BBs" that you pointed out - no tier 6 and 7 BB can compare their stealth to any cruisers they meet, and only something like NC can compare with them as high tier cruisers get so large that their concealment grows up close(r) to BB levels

 

What? You serious there or trolling?

I'm pretty sure only Izumo and RN BBs have 32mm plating everywhere (maybe there's like one more ship, but that would be exactly it - one), everyone else has increased armour values for their different belts, decks, even bows (often at 50...60mm and higher thickness). You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, do you?

 

Per single salvo, while their DPM...

 

Lets compare some randomly selected. Lets say - Amagi, Missouri and Conq with Mogami, Baltimore and Minotaur (feel free to actually compare any others)

 

Amagi  DPM - 252 000 AP / 130 000 HE

Missouri  DPM - 243 000 AP / 102 600 HE

Conq 419  DPM - 312 000 AP / 172 800 HE

Conq 457 DPM - 238 400 AP / 131 200 HE

 

Mogami 155  DPM - 297000 AP / 234000 HE

Mogami 203  DPM - 188000 AP / 132000 HE

Baltimore DPM - 270 000 AP / 151 200 HE

Minotaur  DPM - 601 600 AP

 

Oh would you look at that

DPM is more or less irrelevant in WoWs. You can't just sit anywhere on the map and spam shells in a CA/CL. You have to work hard for the opportunities to free-farm damage. There is a reason why BBs have much higher Average Damage than Cruisers, especially in midtier. Don't know why it is so hard for WG to give them at least a single heal consumable. Maybe this would bring more players to the CAs/CLs.

 

btw: Zao has shitty DPM and still excels in damage farming due to having good rudder, stealth and troll armor so you don't have to rely on a good position that much.

[Blood_Rave_1984]

OP, maybe you are using your cruiser wrong. Use it's speed and quick turn to your advantage to try and avoid fire. If you have to get behind cover for a quick breather then do so but BBs are not your problem, it's your handling of your cruiser. 

Do you try and push or do you hang back?

[Butterdoll]

2 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Probably because I didnt play T5 for an eternity. I hated Kirov, but Kongsberg was great. I played Omaha back before any other nations were added when it was op. Dont play IJN og french CA (got Gala in the new year event)

 

Its not so much the cruisers as it is the meta i guess =)

Well, that's a different thing and I agree.

I could understand if you didn't get on with that or other ship.

But saying that of Buddy it's just too much.

Sure cruisers have their work cut out for them with so many BBs around, but they are far from being dead. They just need more time dealing with bbs.

And Buddy? there's not a single ship like him, the t6 master, the best of them all, non can hold it's own  as Buddy holds... while being down tiered.

T7 ships? I only have one decent, the rest is just clunk and one Turd.

 

2 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

Been kiting on flanks at max range meaning 14+ km (14 because when I close to shoot, that is how close they get while I turn the boat to kite).

 

when kitting in a flank try to not be the main attraction when possible, get IFA, improve your concealment (mine's 11.2 km), first turn around then shoot (don't shoot in mid turn), each time you see that incoming sign, wasd (you can try to make them miss you) or make sure you are angled when the shells arrive. (keep visual contact with the shells for small adjustments)

Make sure you are kitting against one ship at a time.

If you will be kitting against a entire red flank, don't shoot and get out of there. "Live to fight another day"

If you or some guy in your team spot a ship, don't shoot wait a while to see if any more ships pop out.

3 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

After another 4-5 mins of farming BB tears using spotter plane for extended range,  the same tirpitz manages to push around the 1-3 line of islands (a bit close tho, 12 km, so 2nd mistake)

Maybe you were too focused on that BB, keep aware of your surroundings, specially Kongos, Fusos, Nagatos and what not, you let that Tirpitz came practically to secondaries range from you and that is almost where they become more accurate.

 

3 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

I am perfectly angled showing only my stern gun and yet I get citadeled again. Next volley obviously is the end since there is only 3-5 k hp left and no way to flee or go unspotted

Maybe not, you want do offer a shallow angle, not bow in or out.

I've been in duels with Bismarks and Tirpitz (at distance, kitting) where I shoot all three turrets, angled and eat shells with no damage or very little damage when they didn't miss. And I sunk them.

12km-14km, at that distance, the incoming bbs shells don't assumed yet their flatter trajectories, so your Buddy it's well capable to brush them aside or take little damage/ smaller damage.

 

3-5k hp you should have that after you brawled with 2 bbs or 3 bbs.

 

And if necessary stop shooting to your concealment kicks in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LazyInsight]

I would not say that mid tier BBs (tier 6 and 7) need nerfs while comparing them to tier 6 or 7 cruisers. Mid tier cruisers could use some buffs, because of potential uptiering. Just imagine Aoba or Nurnberg facing tier 8 opposition, those ships would be near useless. On the other hand ships like Budyonny or Leander handle higher tier opposition rather well.

[hollowbaron]

I've been owned by mid tier cruisers in bb and dd and also owned them. Everyone says belfast, fiji is op, while in bb its conqueror. I have the belfast, used to have fiji, have lion. I play bad in all of those most of the time.

 

For me best cruisers are french, italian, german. the chapayev is good  but have to spend all battle spamming he just for 5% of target hits doing damage to bb from a distance then spend rest of the time kiting and avoiding and shooting dd. So feels pointless really.

 

In bb at tier 8 and above german bb seem best for me, with yanks second. The yamato is as easy to broadside as a cruiser. The lion (dont have conqueror), is for me weakest tier 9 bb. Last battle I had 112 target hits and 1 fire. One before 10 target hits early on and 3 fires. The only good thing about it is stealth. Apart from that the ap hardly ever pens broadside from a distance and even with IEHE skill on lion i rarely get any significant he damage on a bow bb. I know iehe is meant to be a waste on british bb but I find without it the rate of even causing significant damage with he from a distance is halved for the rare times it happens.

 

Im not saying belfast for example is a bad ship. I know for many others its lethal. Just for me i neither do well in it or fear facing it in another cruiser or bb. Just yolo the smoke and he can't torp you. 

 

In a 1 on 1 duel where both players had to reach the cap and were last tier ix bb on both teams. The lion would lose against every tier 9 bb and even some tier 8 if all were at equal health and no one had the luxury of retreating because of time and points. This is if neither player had the time to do a kakka behind islands. So I will wait and see how op the conqueror is but im not expecting much.

 

The lion simply cant do enough he damage in bow on bow duel, since both ships will have to expose themselves at one point and while the lion ap will mostly bounce the enemy bb will hit the lion for 20k damage broadside.

 

I think the only reason that some consider rn bb op is because when no one engages them they are a menace with fires and no angling in equation, but bb on bb they feel underpowered. Not suggesting a buff. Just not believing the hype.  

 

For me in say a final showdown. While just for example sake. In a tier 8-10 bb I'd fear these starting with the most fear and ending with the least. GK, Montana, Yamato, Conqueror. 

 

Also with yamato. Sometimes it can do some stupid damage when you expose side. But then just pings you for 1k damage for next five volleys. While with montana having a crap penetration, If your in a cruiser unlike the yamato the shells wont over pen and your fucked. While with gk, your on fire within 12k until he is dead. With conqueror, I saw an atlanta go head to head with a conqueror tonight and he won. Just parked behind island everytime conqueror finished reloading. Instead of ap on atlanta he was firing he and a dd could have done more alpha damage to atlanta.

 

[RenamedUser_92906789]

10 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

they dont bother with each other, untill the cruisers are dead

lol that is the reality yeah.

[Ysterpyp]

Cruiser are so hard

 

 

Belfast doesn't count as normal cruiser so ignore her

Really hard man or git gud? 

[Asakka]

37 minutes ago, Ysterpyp said:

Cruiser are so hard

 

 

Belfast doesn't count as normal cruiser so ignore her

Really hard man or git gud? 

Its about git gud. I do ok myself too 

[Ysterpyp]

the recent buff to the pensacola made it a monster :P , people wasting so much salvos on me aswell... evasion tanking at its finest .

 

You just have to know how to tease bb's , flashing your pretty citadel to the bb hordes lel

 

I can almost feel their frustration , and best of all when they do get a hit on me and its an overpen oh the salt

[Asakka]

6 minutes ago, Ysterpyp said:

the recent buff to the pensacola made it a monster :P , people wasting so much salvos on me aswell... evasion tanking at its finest .

 

You just have to know how to tease bb's , flashing your pretty citadel to the bb hordes lel

 

I can almost feel their frustration , and best of all when they do get a hit on me and its an overpen oh the salt

Yeah, you just have to be extra carefull and dodge all day.

 

And her AP is awesome

[Ysterpyp]

Just now, Asakka said:

Yeah, you just have to be extra carefull and dodge all day.

 

And her AP is awesome

yes, i always try to fight one bb at a time, and keep max distance