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AnyadbaMindenNevFoglalt

Why the gameplay dies on Tier V?

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This was planned as a massive rant, but I cut short. this is my first post, but most like my last as well, so don't worry.

 

I started to play last year, just to see how it looks like, reached level 3 but I had to stop it because of my specialties of my job. It has been changed recently, and I started playing again - under a different name, because my original user name was hacked and stolen. Heck I dont care - I reached lvl 15, have a dozen of ships just reached Tier V on all classes, and Tier 6 yesterday with DD. Not much in 2 week, tho, but I have a job and have to sleep.

 

I had always little faith in online multiplayer games (ever since Navy Field ... and the like)  but all seemed promising. Nice gameplay, cheerful people. Premium for a few days, at acceptable cost.. no deal. Wonderful premium ships to be bought later..

And here comes the big BUT...  step by step reaching the wall beyond which lies all the stuff I hated before in other games and again resurfaced.

 

All in short, gameplay became a hell on Tier V...  I had a short battle on Tier VI, but even worse. In detail? I'm sure that "tell me what" type trolls will lecture me about how bad player might I (don't give a s.)

Till tier 3 I was a god compared to V. Where I was constantly put together with Tier VI, VII and even VIII ships with elite clan members, whatever wonder premium stuff they use and mods of god knows what - me lagging on the bottom of the list being a one shot fodder against such people. That even makes it worse I don't like battleships. matches are full of them. I almost always played DD or CV.  DD became a no-chancer, no matter what I do, what playing style what team what unlucky constellation under - it's a pain to play. Add to that, we lose EVERY BATTLE, no matter if I did the highest contribution or been a good team player by sacrificing myself or survived with little activity...

Again lecture me. I could enclose screenshots of me being team saver and top scorer with caps and kills in a DD.

Simply how much fun it was on low Tier, that much a pain it became and frustration.

I tried realistic stuff - not possible, it's a game, real life fighting doctrines does not work. I tried to play smart... I was team player... then I tried not to. I went forward, I kept in the back, I stayed close to others - when there were - I followed orders...  NO DIFFERENCE.

Yesterday was the last drop where I lost temper. Out of at least 20 battles I was killed in 18 before i could do anything... in that two I finished in passivity, apart from a partial cap, some AA shooting and dumping torpedos without target. When I went forward as expected - detected, killed. If there are aircraft, the process is even faster. detected, killed with the second salvo. the first takes 50-70% Hp. Then I stayed with others  I was killed anyway with the third salvo (smoke? no help) or fourth if I did some futile evasive maneuvers. Plus getting F*** messages for not doing what they expected from me (to go forward and die, so they can shoot). Even if I am with 5 other friendlies, and I am not the closest one, EVERYONE (often 6-8 enemies) start shooting on me, and they hit with unbelievable accuracy - no matter what I do, evade, smoke, run with 44kts... keep hitting.  With my remaining 15 HP,  out of spotting range, running back to the CV to provide at least a little AA to be useful -- GUESS WHAT?? suddenly... they turned on a RADAR!!!   This was the point where I broke my mouse to pieces.  3 BB, 2 CA nearby in range but no... the 6 enemies were shooting all barrels on a 15HP destroyer instead.

Other ship classes? CA and BB Tier V against 4-5 Tier VI and VII enemies. Experiencing the same, it just takes more time to die because of more HP and armor.

Maybe CV is different, no real problems so far... (havent seen "strafing" yet, however, whatever it is)   but after some time it gets boring I dont even see anything from the beauty of the game, but icons and tiny symbols moving here and there. Biggest Tier wins, anyway.

 

What I feel now is such a waste of this beautiful naval game turning into a second accursed Navy Field, where level 100 elite BB upgraded to hell with payware are shooting through the map with laser guided accuracy and instead of other BBs they one-shot the small ships. With their first salvo of course. AND dropping depth charges on subs... the BBs... good eh?

I know what you say, why am I not playing coop. I do now, I have no other choice. Or play Tier 1-4 ships to have fun. 90% of the events, achievements, missions, whatever - only for tier V and above and only at random battles. Thanks. It won't take a year or two to reach Tier VII  (X?? kidding?)

 

That is the wall, the Tier V, that divides fun and suffering. Much to be said, but enough. I have been spoken..

Good luck to all of you.

"Altengernagy"

 

PS. And all the premium ships I planned to buy after payday, have disappeared.

 

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Your problem is inexperience.

Experienced players have no problem on Tier V. Tier V is easy, the maps give plenty of cover to people who know how to use them.

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Facing Tier VIIIs in a Tier V?

Stop fail divisioning then. Don't div up with anyone on a higher tier.

 

Can't cope with Tier V? 

Learn to play. It's that simple. You have under 500 battles, you're still very much a Newbie. Tier V is where you can no longer just fail your way to a win anymore. You lose the protected MM of the lower tiers, people like me come down from higher tiers to farm credits on you as well. Yes, it's rough but try actually learning the game. Watch some YouTube videos, read some guides. Learn to play.

 

BBs depth charging subs? 

You're just trolling aren't you.

Edited by Captain_KriegWurst
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Of course everyone shoots at the 15 hp DD. It's an almost guaranteed kill, it is one set of guns and torpedoes less. The only way to get focused down even more was if you were PA or IJN, where people hate you for being a torpedo boat.

 

Yes, T5 is where the protected matchmaking ends, from where on you meet ships up to 2 tiers higher. The game assumes, you gathered enough experience in lower tiers, so now you can deal with this. In general, what ColonelPete said applies, you need to be a bit more experienced. If you are T5 in a T7 match (you cannot meet T8), then you just play defensively and try to be a supporting role. For DDs and CLs, this actually isn't that hard, because you already were fragile when in same tier, having no armour. So you will have to learn how to use cover to avoid getting shot at and how to just burn down people from range or (if you play IJN, KM or PA DDs), how to land your torpedoes from stealth. Also, learn the select few radar ships you could meet, which are only three anyway: Atlanta, Belfast and Indianapolis. Stay away from those in a DD and all is fine. Otherwise, there is hydroaccoustic search, which most cruisers have, with shorter range, but similar effect. But I wouldn't know why you would want to be within 4-5 km of an enemy cruiser in a DD.

 

Overall, T5 can be hard, but it isn't impossible and in some ways, it can be a bit easier than T6 vs T8. T5 has a good few strong ships, which can take a bit uptiering. 

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Please use less words to express your hurt feelings :fish_glass:

Quote

This was planned as a massive rant, but I cut short.

No, you didn't - or you're really bad at it. Seems, it's still a rant, tho. Ain't nobody got time for that!

 

Quote

this is my first post, but most like my last as well, so don't worry.

Spoiler

 

Quote

Yesterday was the last drop where I lost temper. Out of at least 20 battles I was killed in 18 before i could do anything

L2P - if you wouldn't blame everything but yourself, I'd be linking resources - but nah.

Ok, the most important ones

Spoiler

 

 

 

Quote

3 BB, 2 CA nearby in range but no... the 6 enemies were shooting all barrels on a 15HP destroyer instead

DD win games and in general keep you guessing about their whereabouts - that's why everyone shoots them whenever they get lit up! Also, your HP amount doesn't keep your guns or torps from working, does it? If you can finish off an enemy: Do it.

Spoiler

 

 

Quote

Other ship classes?[...]it just takes more time to die because of more HP and armor.

Yes, they are more forgiving - so learn to play them before jumping into DD business - it won't get easier when you face radar and hydroacustic search.

Ship classes and their skill ceiling (my official ranking), from higher to lower: (1) CV, (2) DD, (3) CL/CA, (4) BB - which doesn't mean, that a brain dead BB will have much influence, because there will be good BB players on the enemy team and your team will have to carry that weight difference - but it might get a shot or two off, that land on target, maybe even ram something - while an obvious DD (those are a thing) will likely just blow up. Most noob BB will have tried to be aggressive, but failed due to lack of experience - thus they tend to sit back and be passive. But even then they can score the occasional big hit.

 

Short: You will have to learn - aiming, ship classes, maps, certain ship abilities (when loading into a game, take note of the two team's lineups - special dangers and opportunities), what works and what doesn't - at a certain point you'll on average do less bad than good decisions. That's when you'll start to be any good for your team. But the learning will never end. We all mess up here and there.

 

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14 minutes ago, Captain_KriegWurst said:

(...) You have under 500 battles, you're still very much. Noob Newbie. (...)

FTFY, unless you think he won't learn. Like, ever.

 

1 hour ago, AnyadbaMindenNevFoglalt said:

(...) That is the wall, the Tier V, that divides fun and suffering. Much to be said, but enough. I have been spoken.. (...)

Tier V is one of the most fun Tiers to play. Tier VIII on the other hand is very hard for destroyers. I'm inclined to say that's the one that ends fun.

I think you should give yourself little more time. Spend more time at lower tiers. Tier 3, 4 are real pleasure to play.

There is absolutely nowhere written, you need to play high tiers. After all this is just the game and games are supposed to be fun to play. Play tiers you are most comfortable for you and enjoy them!

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You mentioned playing DDs, have you noticed that around T5-T6 most lines change their gameplay?

For example Russian DDs go from the Imperial Izyaslav to Soviet Podvoisky, and change from multi-gun cap contender to flanking harasser. This requires adaptation from the player, especially since things that worked at T4 stop working higher up. Almost every DD line switches like this at those tiers, often gaining massive improvements in one category like the T6 Gaede getting Hydroacustic Search.

Also important is the fact that most dedicated DD captains at mid tier have the concealment expert skill, leading to situations where a player fresh from the low tiers has to face enemies that have a 1km or better stealth advantage.

 

My tip would be to play a bit less aggressive and try to get to 10p with every DD captain you have. Also, try to look up Notser on Youtube, he's a DD player and has some good ideas on how to play them. And if you need advice how to develop your captains go to shipcomrade.com and look at the recommended captain builds in the skill calculator.

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Dear OP, it apears that you still have much to learn about this game. Most formumites do consider 1000 games under your belt a critical number so you still have a lot to learn in front of you. Depending on your personal preference I therefore recommend to watch some videos of more successful players (lots of tutorial and how to videos on youtube) and get your clues there AND/OR find a friend or join a clan ingame and get the game and its mechanics explained to you by example.  It is not a bad thing to start anything as a freshman but to stay one.

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Just now, aboomination said:

Assuming that base detection is 10+ km :Smile_hiding:

Why didn't you let me keep the hyperbole? Why did you drag realism and facts into my highly didactic post?

You're not fun and I'm offended. Bad pony, no sugar lumps.

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The gameplay doesn't die at tier 5, in fact it barely begins at that point. One of the best ways to guarantee frustration is to rush up the tiers and with less than 300 battles you are quite inexperienced in tier 6 battles. You are not really giving yourself a chance. I'd suggest opening up other lines and spending more time at lower tiers getting the hang of the basics.

 

When you say it makes no difference whether or not you push or hang back or do whatever, that tells me you just don't have a good grasp on the general tactics of the game. WoWS is all about positioning, being in the right place at the right time and doing the right thing and there is no simple answer to that question. If there was, the game would be utterly pointless. You need to learn when to push, when to kite, when you need to go full aggro or play it safe. It's completely ok to not have a good grasp on the gameplay at less than 300 battles, in fact you'd probably be some sort of a freak of nature if you did.

 

The game gets progressively harder at every tier you go up. Getting a bigger ship doesn't help much because your opponents get bigger ships as well - and a lot more experience on the average.

 

If you want to improve, post replays and ask more specific questions on what part of your gameplay you want to focus on. Here's a few basic tips that are guaranteed to raise your win% by a percentage unit or a few:

 

1) Make the minimap BIG, add last known enemy positions, torp ranges, ship names and such (ctrl-click the cog icon at the top right corner of the map). SPEND AT LEAST 50-70% OF THE TIME WITH EYES ON THE MAP.

2) Only ever use shift to zoom in and out. Zoom out between every single shot to observe your surroundings IN ADDITION TO STARING AT THE MINIMAP all the time.

3) you can enable replays by editing a file (google will find a host of instructions) or by using a mod.

 

More advice will be incoming if you just ask, from me and a host of other people here - that much is guaranteed. You have just found the right place for that. Or you can just vent, rant and leave in frustration. Your call.

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2 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

Most formumites do consider 1000 games under your belt a critical number

I never got asked regarding this :fish_glass:

 

2 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

Why did you drag realism and facts into my highly didactic post?

I feared that OP will get triggered by your post :fish_haloween:

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2 minutes ago, aboomination said:

I feared that OP will get triggered by your post

I believe the OP is right now constantly triggered when starting the game. But he could do with some advice, especially since most of what he wrote is just what new players experience when changing to mid tier.

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My two cents here.

It's an inherent balance issue that begins to happen from T5 and up, and it doesn't get any better.
Its not the lack of experience here thats the problem, it just makes it way worse.

The main issue here is the higher the tier the higher armor values and the higher the damage they can dish out, meaning lower tiers take fewer shots to kill, maybe even as low as 1 hit.
They shouldn't mix the tiers UNLESS they have something built in that balances the imbalances from the tier difference.

 

T5 can win over T7 IF the T7 player lacks skill or is in a weakened situation, of course ship type differences also play into the matter which can further the imbalance.
The other way around the T7 can outright dominate the T5 alone due to way better stats - and a T5 vs. T8 is just OBSCENELY IMBALANCED!

 

Very simply put - when out-tiered you can ONLY win IF you OUTPLAY the opponents.

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You look like someone I'd shoot to hell in my Giulio Cesare. Nit because I have anything against you, but because you make it easy. 

 

Also, bírom a neved :D

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1 minute ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

and a T5 vs. T8 is just OBSCENELY IMBALANCED!

Yeah...that's why it doesn't happen....unless the player himself is stupid enough to force it

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55 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Your problem is inexperience.

Experienced players have no problem on Tier V. Tier V is easy, the maps give plenty of cover to people who know how to use them.

The problem is that any new player will find themselves in tier 5 and thus against tier 7 and seal clubbing divisions in ships with radar etc. etc. in less than 50 battles when playing PvP random battle mode, of which new players have zero experience in handling, they will also not have access to vital captain skills such as Camouflage Expert untill reaching tier 6 or 7. This is a major obstacle to overcome as a new player and is extremely bad game design if not deliberately made so in order to intice players to spend money on high tier premiums, premium account and gold in order to advance faster down the tech trees.

As stated in an earluer comment on another topic I made a new account in order to experience what it is like to be a completely new player and what the OP experienced is exactly the same as I did, only difference is that I had extensive prior experience I could benefit from.

For a new player reaching tier 5 is the make or break point in the game as either the player endures the challenge or quits WoWS entirely.

 

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4 minutes ago, domen3 said:

Yeah...that's why it doesn't happen....unless the player himself is stupid enough to force it

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/38251849 :cap_hmm:

 

1 minute ago, G01ngToxicCommand0 said:

The problem is that any new player will find themselves in tier 5 and thus against tier 7 and seal clubbing divisions in ships with radar etc. etc. in less than 50 battles when playing PvP random battle mode, of which new players have zero experience in handling

Just like I had no experience in handling Batchats when I first ran into them in WoT and died in seconds. What you gonna do? Extend the safe space up to t10?

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12 minutes ago, domen3 said:

Yeah...that's why it doesn't happen....unless the player himself is stupid enough to force it

That would be incorrect - you can still be matchmaked with a T8 as T5 even when not being in a division or clan, probability of it is very low, but it can happen.

However, if you're in a division with one who's in T8 and you're T5, then you're asking for it.

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1 minute ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

That would be incorrect - you can still be matchmaked with a T8 as T5 even when not being in a division or clan, probability of it is very low, but it can happen.

 

The only, only, only exception would be a T5 CV in division with a T6 ship that drags an enemy T5 CV who's not in a division into a T8 battle because the T5/T6 division couldn't be matched by the MM for a few minutes.

 

Other than that. Not possible (unless you show conclusive evidence on how that would work).

 

 

Greetings

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On 2/24/2018 at 2:47 PM, aboomination said:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/38251849 :cap_hmm:

 

Just like I had no experience in handling Batchats when I first ran into them in WoT and died in seconds. What you gonna do? Extend the safe space up to t10?

Edited

Edited by Asklepi0s
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inappropriate remarks
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