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[Ship Review] Kelorn on Asashio [WiP]

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Legal type Disclaimer: Asashio is still under testing and is a work in progress. All stats are subject to change.

Opinion Disclaimer: I'm not the world's expert at DD's, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

I've been testing ships as a CC for almost a year now. We've seen a number of Premium destroyers over that time and honestly I rarely spend too much time in them. Kidd, in particular, was painful to play, as I didn't really get how that ship was supposed to work. So when Asashio dropped on to my account, the first iteration (no deepwater torps and basically a Kagero clone) made me think "There's nothing special about that ship, how much testing will I really need to do?"

 

Boy, was I in for a surprise.

 

The truth is really quite simple: Asashio with deepwater torpedos is fun to play. 


The Torpedoes

 

As the ship currently stands, Asashio carries Type 93 Mod 3 deepwater torpedoes (can only hit battleships and carriers) with a maximum range of 20km and a base speed of 67 knots. With the torpedo acceleration Captain skill (which I recommend) the range drops to 16km and the speed increases to a ludicrous 72 knots. 

 

To give you an idea of how deadly these torpedoes are, even after the upcoming nerf to their detection threshold, take a look at these reaction times (courtesy of LittleWhiteMouse):

Quote

So, the announced Asashio torpedo changes amount to this:  700m -> 900m detection range on torpedoes:
* For 67 knot torpedoes, reaction time increases from 3.89s to 5.00s
* For 72 knot torpedoes (you sick monkeys), reaction time increases from 3.62s to 4.65s.

Since we're going to assume that we're all sick monkeys here, you have 4.65 seconds to react to getting hit by torpedoes that do 20,966 damage each. This makes for a rough time for any battleships looking to evade taking massive damage. To give you an idea of how devastating this is, here are the reaction times for Shimakaze torpedoes (also courtesy of LWM):

 

Type 93 - 2.5km detection range,  15.02 seconds @62 knots, 13.89 seconds  @67 knots.
Type 93 mod 3 - 1.7km detection range, 9.45 seconds  @67 knots, 8.79 seconds  @72 knots.
Type F3 - 1.8km detection range, 8.82 seconds  @76 knots, 8.28 seconds  @81 knots.

 

Worst case, you have roughly half the time to react and avoid the torpedos compared to Shimakaze's torps. Only a third of the time, if the Shima is running the 20km torps.

 

So how many of these nasty fish can Asashio throw out? Well that's not an easy answer. She has a base reload time of 112 seconds, which is exactly the same as her sister-ship in the Tech tree, Kagero. With Torpedo Armament Expertise, this drops to 100.8 seconds. While Kagero must choose between Torpedo Reload Booster and a Smoke Generator, Asashio gets access to both modules, increasing her bag of tricks at the steep expense of no longer being able to hit Cruisers and Destroyers with torpedoes. Assuming you're using a premium consumable, you get 3 charges of TRB, increased to 4 with Superintendent. 

 

Courtesy of Yuzral, the formula for number of torpedoes launchable in a game = (trb charges + (1200 seconds - 8 seconds * trb charges) / torpedo reload time) * number of torpedo tubes

 

In the case of Asashio, this becomes (4 + (1200 - 8*4) / 100.8) * 8 = 120 torpedoes. That sounds like a lot, but it's really hard to get that many torpedoes out during a game. My personal best thus far has been 72 and that game felt like I was spamming torps like mad.

 

But how does this stack up versus other Tier 8+ Destroyers?

 

image.thumb.png.25a8eddc372235088c700cd3938dcceb.png

Note: Gold bars denote premium ships, black are tech tree

 

The answer is that she's surprisingly middle of the road in terms of pure torpedo throwing madness when compared against all Tier 8, 9 and 10 destroyers (who knew Tashkent could launch almost 200 torps in a game? Someone get me a replay of THAT!). But the good news is that she's tied for top of the Tier 8 pack with her sister, Kagero (assuming Kagero takes Torpedo Reload Booster).

 

However, this graph doesn't tell the whole story. Many of the entries on this graph are hamstrung by low range, low damage, or both. So let's look at how Asashio stacks up on Theoretical Max Damage.

 

image.thumb.png.6ec6add5681a14de07aef61afaae5ff7.png

 

Asashio and Kagero again stack up well against the other Tier 8-10 destroyers, and the Torpedo power of Shimakaze and Black are the creme de la creme. 

Now we have pretty graphs to confirm what we already knew, Asashio is a monster torpedo boat, but why is she so fun to play?

 

Concealment

 

image.thumb.png.d25f784755a69eac9dcdf2897b99b34d.png

 

This is where Asashio shines. She has the best (tied with Harekaze and Kagero) concealment of all the Tier 8+ Destroyers. Asashio outspots anything in her matchmaking spread, making her an evil intelligence gathering platform in the absence of carriers. Pair this with the ability to take smoke AND torpedo reload boost and Asashio starts to be able to do things like spot in the early game, cap in the mid/end game, and choose her fights at all times. You'll have 400 meters+ of buffer over most of your opposing destroyers, this doesn't seem like a lot, but its enough if you're careful about your early positioning and don't let yourself get into "head-on" closures. Save your speed boost to help you get out of tough situations, is my advice. 

 

Conclusion

As I mentioned earlier, Asashio is just plain fun to play. The controversy over the ship largely revolves around the assumption that Asashio captains will stick to the outside of the map and never help their team. Given her concealment and heavy torpedo armament (that can only hit battleships and carriers), there's no denying that she would excel at such a role. 

 

But she's good at SO much more than that. 

 

Early game, you're likely to see Asashio's on the flanks, vying for launch positions on the enemy battleship fleet, but what they're also doing is spotting all the cruisers (and sometimes destroyers) for the rest of their team to spot. Even if an Asashio never comes within a kilometer of a cap, this is an invaluable service to the team. 

 

Here's where things get tricky: Why shouldn't Asashio go for caps in the early game with that great concealment? The short answer is that she really can't. The long answer revolves around her guns, which the more astute of you have noticed that I have yet to mention. Per the World of Warships Dev blog, Asashio's guns will be getting a small rate of fire buff, but even with it she can't hope to fight another full health DD and live. Are her guns useless? 

 

Absolutely not

 

But they are situational. Her guns have a really nice Alpha damage punch, one that can and WILL surprise other Destroyers when you choose to fire. The key part of that sentence is "choose to fire". Because your concealment is so good, Asashio can disengage at will, disappearing into stealth and repositioning for a better angle. That said, you can (and I have) killed low health Gearings, Khabs, Cruisers, and battleships with these guns. Frankly that's about all that they're good for, but you shouldn't forget that they're there, as they WILL win games for you.

 

But what about the smoke? I generally found that the smoke had two purposes:

 

  • Disengaging
  • Waiting for a battleship to charge me so I can torp at point blank range
  •  

Sitting in your smoke and using your guns just isn't a terribly effective tactic in this ship, and the overwhelming majority of your damage will come from your torpedoes. 

 

Assuming she stay the way she is, this is a must buy for Destroyer lovers!

 

Overall Rating: 8/10

Fun Factor: 10/10

Credit Earning: 8/10

Ease of Play: 6/10

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What I fear about the Asashio, based on what Flamu said in his recent video on the ship, is a recurrence of the 'Torpedo Soup' problem that used to plague the top tiers. This was mostly due to the Shimakaze torpedo armament, that has since been nerfed in order to alleviate that same problem.

 

Flamu outlined a scenario where the Torpedo Soup Demon will be reawakened, but at tier VIII instead of tier X, and in a premium ship no less. I have no way of evaluating Flamu's opinion for myself at this time, but I must admit that I was a bit worried.

 

What are your thoughts on this, OP?

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6 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

What I fear about the Asashio, based on what Flamu said in his recent video on the ship, is a recurrence of the 'Torpedo Soup' problem that used to plague the top tiers. This was mostly due to the Shimakaze torpedo armament, that has since been nerfed in order to alleviate that same problem.

 

Flamu outlined a scenario where the Torpedo Soup Demon will be reawakened, but at tier VIII instead of tier X, and in a premium ship no less. I have no way of evaluating Flamu's opinion for myself at this time, but I must admit that I was a bit worried.

 

What are your thoughts on this, OP?


World of Warships is as susceptible to Flavor of the Month as any game. The day that Tirpitz was released and the game launched, I got so mad that I quit for months, all the work in closed and open beta was undone because I couldn't citadel a tirpitz in my Yamato. (cue german kid raging at his screen video)

 

Will there be some crazy days of torpedo walls of skill the first weekend Asashio is released? Almost certainly. 

 

But you know what? That's ok, because the cruisers and destroyers will cackle madly and run down the offenders. Or there will be 5 Asashio's on each team and only one BB. Or any of a host of other things. Once the game settles down again, Asashio will be a niche ship that does some cool things, but probably won't be that common. She's a ship you'll play for fun, but not necessarily all the time.

 

And really, we all remember Shiratsuyu at tier 7 that could do the same thing. I remember a certain ranked season you couldn't help but get burned by a belfast or torped by a shira. But shira lost her smoke and TRB combo, taming her a little.

 

But this is Tier 8 as well as a premium, so maybe that's enough to make it ok. 

 

Bottom line: The sky isn't falling, because the sky is never falling ;)

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Thanks for a nice reply!

 

I must admit, I have also mused a bit on the possibility that the Asashio will help to make cruisers more relevant in the game. They have more and more lost their early role in providing AA and DD cover for the capital ships, and they would sure love to charge down a nosy destroyer without cruiser-damaging torpedoes. And I share your feeling that a single ship probably won't affect game balance over much, if at all.

 

Edited: Also, thanks for the nice review!

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I still dont like the idea of deepwater torps that hit BB and CV's only. Can it work? I do not doubt it can, its just that you remove options that surface running torpedoes give, including hitting cruisers and firing torps into smoke, and the only thing you get back is better concealment on them, concealment that gets nullified as soon as a DD/plane/hydro spots them.

 

And Asashio is still a long way's off to being released so no doubt they test a whole lot more.  

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The deepwater torpedoes on the Pan-Asian destroyers work really well, in my opinion. The ability to flush out smoked-up destroyers is gone, true, but those torpedoes are so much more effective against non-DD ships that the trade-off is more than worth it. As for the loss of short-range DD knife fight torpedo strike power, I seldom use torpedoes for that anyway; I use my guns. And the guns on those Pan-Asian destroyers that I play - the Shenyang and the Gadjah Mada - are wicked good! :Smile_playing:

 

But not having the ability to torpedo enemy cruisers, well... I guess we will see how that works out!

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Yea, but IJN dont have guns that out dpm other destroyers with the exception of the ship that come equipped with the 100mm guns so torpedoes are part of your repertoire needed to win knife fights, unless your opponent is utterly brain dead ofcourse, the pan-asia dd's do have good guns for knife fights because well they are USN DD's, and pan-asia's torpedoes hit cruisers too, so that another plus they have.

 

Gadjah Madah is borderline overpowered due to its guns and smoke, its the Zao/Conqueror in DD form at T7 :cap_rambo: 

 

 

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Yes, the jury is currently out on whether WG will take the nerfbat to some of those Pan-Asian scrappers. Me, I hope not - the DD population needs a few scrappers to hold the line against the BB Mafia! :cap_like:

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First off, good preview mate, thanks for the info.

 

The main thing that worries me is that your basis for avoiding the worst case scenario with the Asahio (invisible walls of skill from 20 km away and no active participation in battle) is the expectation that the majority of the players will play the ship as a DD is supposed to be played. I am VERY sceptical about that.

 

Just check the silver high tier DDs, are they being driven as they should from the majority of the players? No. Just imagine what would happen with a premium tier VIII DD which is much more accessible and has invisible 20 KM DW torps as its main selling point. I personally shudder at the thought.

 

Will the Asahio be fun to play for its skipper? Absolutely; Who doesn't like safely farming damage from BBs with no risk whatsoever? Will this be fun for the remaining 23 players in the match? I sincerely doubt it.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Turin7 said:

... Who doesn't like safely farming damage from BBs with no risk whatsoever?...

 

I don't.

 

"Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun"

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From my (rather inexperienced) perspective, the crux will be the inability to hit cruisers; if one is not a reasonably skilled player, the logical approach to this thing is to hang back, until essentially the entire enemy team's disposition has been established (with that concealment, you'll be able to help with that, but risk-averse players will be cautious - you're essentially defenceless against cruisers and DDs).

 

There will be a very strong temptation to lob torps from a distance, rather than to try and do what DDs' main roles are i.e. spotting and capping.

The good players will probably do fine with this, but we lesser folk will be strongly tempted to play more passively - I'm not sure this is a positive development.

I get the logic that this thing might make cruisers more relevant, but I think that is only likely to work if there are multiple ships in each battle - presumably, that isn't likely to come to pass?

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10 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

I don't.

 

"Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun"

 

I also prefer the fast-and-furious life of a gunboat captain, to long range torpedo bowling. Live fast, die young and leave a horribly burned, water-soaked and fish-eaten corpse, I say! That's one reason why I didn't particularly mind when WG removed the ability to long-range stealth fire, even though the Blyskawica and the Gremyashchy are two of my favourite ships. It helped that the change was actually good for the overall game experience.

 

Will the addition of a tier VIII premium torpedo waller be good for the game? I doubt it - but I take heart from OP:s positive outlook!

 

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9 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

I don't.

 

"Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun"

And I'm very glad to hear that.

 

Unfortunately, I doubt that will be the case with the majority of the Asahio's buyers, assuming she's released like this of course.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Turin7 said:

And I'm very glad to hear that.

 

Unfortunately, I doubt that will be the case with the majority of the Asahio's buyers, assuming she's released like this of course.

 

 

Turin,

 

I guess I'm just an optimist about the idea of trying to inform people to play to a higher potential. That said, it's always a delicate balance between "forcing" people into a certain role and letting them play with something that can be used multiple ways. I dislike forcing people and prefer the kinds of emergent gameplay that can exist when you have a sandbox of options, as long as something new is always being added to stir the sandbox a bit

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I belive that Asashio is meant to alleviate the battleship cancer that plagues WoWs atm.
And boy he does that pretty well.
However as it was mentioned before it`s borderline useless in any other role outside of scouting, thus the important question is whether caps are more important than kills (that you may or may not get).

 

Also Asashio isn`t overpowered by any means. If enemy bb`s are using WASD hack properly, there is very little chance of scoring multiple hits - even with F3 fishes (currently fastest in game). The 0.7km (or 0.9km) is also useless if you have any competent DD screening the area infront of your bb`s.

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3 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

I belive that Asashio is meant to alleviate battleship cancer that plagues WoWs atm.
And boy he does that pretty well.
However as it was mentioned before it`s borderline useless in any other role outside of scouting, thus the important question is whether caps are more important than kills (that you may or may not get).

 

Also Asashio isn`t overpowered by any means. If enemy bb`s are using WASD hack properly, there is very little chance of scoring multiple hits - even with F3 fishes (currently fastest in game). The 0.7km (or 0.9km) is also useless if you have any competent DD screening the area infront of your bb`s.

The interesting thing is that the Asashio torps with Torp accel give you half the time to react that F3's do. They're significantly harder to dodge if you aren't taking pre-emptive measures. I in no way believe Asashio to be overpowered and your point about it being a counter to BB spam is spot on, imho. 

 

Bottom line, she's fun, interesting, and different, what more can we ask from a premium?

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20 minutes ago, WarshipsPodcastEU said:

Turin,

 

I guess I'm just an optimist about the idea of trying to inform people to play to a higher potential. That said, it's always a delicate balance between "forcing" people into a certain role and letting them play with something that can be used multiple ways. I dislike forcing people and prefer the kinds of emergent gameplay that can exist when you have a sandbox of options, as long as something new is always being added to stir the sandbox a bit

 

A sincerely great attitude to have, maybe my years in WoT and WoWs have made me a bit too cynical in what to expect.

 

I'm just not comfortable with the playstyle the ship seems to encourage seeing that, again, its main selling point will be the absurd torpedoes. Just don't think this is the correct answer to the current meta.

 

Obviously, I'll be happy I'm proved wrong, we shall see I guess.

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I had a game last week on Tears where a test Asashio was on the enemy team, he was chased out of one cap, managed to torpedo one Tirpitz and wasn't seen again even though it was the last ship alive on their team.

I would call it utterly useless compared to a Kagero and I can't see a reason to buy it even though I really like DD play. 

 

It will do nothing to reduce the number of BB's played.

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21 minutes ago, WarshipsPodcastEU said:

Bottom line, she's fun, interesting, and different, what more can we ask from a premium?

That is indeed the best that can be asked of a premium!

 

However, introducing a ship that is built to be a counter to battleships can work in more ways than one.

- It could make cruisers more relevant, which would probably in the main be a good thing.

- It could make battleship captains camp even more than they already do. This would be a bad thing.

 

I recently experienced a tier X battle in my Tirpitz, where we faced three Shimakazes. Now my natural instinct when commanding a battleship is to wait for a good moment to push, and then do an Admiral Farragut ("Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes!") - but this just wasn't possible. It was a bit ludicrous, really - as soon as we had weathered one wave of metal fish and started to edge forward, another wave appeared. Even though these torpedoes were spotted well before they reached us - thanks to valiant efforts from our destroyers and the carrier - there was just no going forward. All we could do, was to duck and weave and fire off the odd salvo at distant enemy ships. I do not relish to experience that on a regular basis.

 

Edited: All in all, though, I guess there's a good chance that the inability to torpedo cruisers will prove an effective counter balance to the stronger threat to battleships. No cruiser captain worth his salt will be able to resist chasing down an errant Asashio!

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1 minutę temu, BeauNidl3 napisał:

It will do nothing to reduce the number of BB's played.

IMHO Asashio + Akizuki/Loyang division will be very VERY strong. Or actually a division of Asashio + any hard DD counter.

The point is that if you manage to survive in Asashio until all enemy DD`s are dead  (and game isn`t over by that point) then it`s basicly G&G.

I also met Asashio, and rekt him thoroughly -> https://replayswows.com/replay/16994#stats and i still belive the only reason why you can carry with it on your own is that people are yet to realise that 20km DW torps are a thing now.

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1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

Yes, the jury is currently out on whether WG will take the nerfbat to some of those Pan-Asian scrappers. Me, I hope not - the DD population needs a few scrappers to hold the line against the BB Mafia! :cap_like:

Source? I think it would be a real pitty. The Pan A DDs are fine as they are - I would say on par with the US DDs with the added plus they can actually put a dent in the BBs and I think we need that. As it is, when I play BB - which do happen on occasion-  I do not pay much attension to IJN, nor US DDs as you can easily shrug off a torp or two from those. Good RU DD players can whittle you down with guns, but meh. However if a PAN A DD is in the waters I am much more prone to the good ol wsad hack, just to be sure...

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Why make a counter to the BB plague a premium ship? Why not buff regular IJN DDs instead of putting the counter to the high tier BB population behind a paywall?

 

I'd like to think the Asashio indicates some new thinking for the line and that DWT will be made available to regular ships as an option but I won't be holding my breath for that announcement.

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3 minuty temu, Strappster napisał:

Why make a counter to the BB plague a premium ship? Why not buff regular IJN DDs instead of putting the counter to the high tier BB population behind a paywall?

Again, Asashio is borderline useless at anything beside countering BB`s, therefore it`s no really suited for people attempting to grind through techtree. It`s a specialist ship, and it has no place in the techtree.

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Just now, Infiriel said:

Again, Asashio is borderline useless at anything beside countering BB`s, therefore it`s no really suited for people attempting to grind through techtree. It`s a specialist ship, and it has no place in the techtree.

 

I'm baffled by this response. I'm not questioning the ship's role or it's suitability for training captains to use on the regular ships, I'm wondering why the ability to counter BBs is being limited to a single premium ship.

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1 minutę temu, Strappster napisał:

 

I'm baffled by this response. I'm not questioning the ship's role or it's suitability for training captains to use on the regular ships, I'm wondering why the ability to counter BBs is being limited to a single premium ship.

It`s not, but Asashio is a ->dedicated<- BB counter, he does that one thing exceptionally well, but can`t do anything else.
IJN DD line in general takes a huge dump on any BB within torpedo range (maybe except USS Free-XP, but it`s not the point), but they are (usually) far more balanced in their power so they can for example contest caps against other DDs, which Asashio simply can`t do.
If you really want to know what i mean get yourself a Mutsuki, and try to contest caps against other DDs - it`s balance of power is almost the same as Asashio`s, but at least you can torp enemy DDs.

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