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KarmaQU_EU

Problem in the logic of the current Lootbox system

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Lootbox system has flaws in its logic. I guess it was originally introduced to provide incentive for players to log on, but under a combination of factors which I will attempt to describe, it may be seriously impaired in performing its intent.

 

First fault, having to choose between "normal" crates, or a "slightly higher chance of supercontainer" makes it a lose-lose. Players can either lose out on a supercontainer for meager rewards, or lose out on meager rewards for even more meager rewards when it fails to give a supercontainer. 

One way to design it is to outright take away the supercontainer option, but to slightly raise supercontainer chance in any crate. Or to make supercontainer chance slightly increase for 2nd and 3rd lootbox of the day.

 

Second fault, it is an "adding insult to injury" type of feature. On the surface, this feature seems like incredible generosity from WG, able to even give doubloons. However, it is not too difficult a mental maneuver to interpret this as a "different kind of lack of generosity". The grind in this game is clear to all, with tiers 9-10 pretty much unprofitable without some kind of premium account, camo, or flags. The containers, any kind of them, are not sufficient to offset the stinginess of the system. Even if a player got a supercontainer with doubloons, their joy will turn to detest when they will have to "waste" those doubloons on respeccing a commander, buying a port slot, or other mundane expenses instead of spending it on premium ships, camos, and stuff. Their "happiness" of getting 50k credits from a container is immediately gone the next time they have a bad game with "a bad team", and lose that 50k on the ship repair. They will then do some quick math in their head, note it took them 5 games to earn the container, but having lose it all in one game, mentally write off the containers as any kind of generosity.

My recommended fix for this is firstly, obviously, to improve the game, but since that is difficult, instead to improve on the daily missions and campaigns by fleshing them out to have more features or be more fun. Add in "premium camo tokens" to the containers which can only be used to purchase premium camo for tech-tree ships. Or even not-very-rare "rent-a-premium" tokens which allow players to try out a list of rotating premium ships, but barring high prestige premiums and "difficult to play" premiums as is reasonable.

 

Third fault, it is too rigid to be a "fun" feature. The daily cap is very rigidly implemented, excess experience is wasted, any other action other than experience is wasted, and it is daily.

This one is straightforward. GIve it a weekly quota, remove daily cap, but make earning lootboxes in the same day require scaling more input. Excess input not enough to fill one lootbox is carried over to the next day, but you will have to log in to claim it. There is a total lootbox quota per week, equal to averaged out per day lootbox total per week. This way working ppl can play, concentrate when they have time, and not lose out on the rewards. Excess experience at the end of the whole week can be used on a "super-roll" with a higher chance of supercontainer, direct rolls on supercontainer loot, or even convertable to free exp with credits, a randomly generated mission, or simply at a certain rate.

 

There can be more ideas but I'm wary of going off and writing textwalls again. TY for reading.

 

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Sooooo your TL:DR is: WG I'm not getting enough free stuff. Gimme more free stuff?

 

Also: Somebody has the Skybuck seal available?

 

 

Greetings

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4 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

Sooooo your TL:DR is: WG I'm not getting enough free stuff. Gimme more free stuff?

My TL;DR is gimme (and other players) more "free" stuff, and we'll give you more plays in your game, be nicer while playing your game, and possibly like your game more, and if you handle it correctly, buy more of your premiums.

 

Or we'll do some "quick math" in our heads, and then head out to other pursuits besides your game. This is not a whine for more free stuff. This is not a thinly veiled threat. This is simply the reality that is being realized in the gaming industry, where giving out "free" stuff in a fun kind of way attracts more players to your game.

 

Cheers.

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5 minutes ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

This is simply the reality that is being realized in the gaming industry, where giving out "free" stuff in a fun kind of way attracts more players to your game.

 

And in your opinion that's not enough?

 

 

Greetings

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6 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

And in your opinion that's not enough?

 

 

Greetings

Define "enough". Unless it's my "opinion" which matters, and thus should be catered to.



(Then mentally picture yourself saying that to players of your game, and mentally envision what their reaction will be.)

(I will mentally picture myself watching you say that to players of your game, and mentally envision what they will say after they have come to my game, a carnival of stuff, instead.)

 

Cheers.

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You're saying:

 

Quote

giving out "free" stuff in a fun kind of way attracts more players to your game

 

Coupled with:

 

Quote

The daily cap is very rigidly implemented, excess experience is wasted, any other action other than experience is wasted, and it is daily.

 

Which leads me to believe that you think that the current implementation of the daily XP crates is

 

a) either not fun

 

b) or not fun and to few stuff

 

c) to few stuff

 

Assuming that you're aiming for c) is the reasonable choice since people always complain about getting to little out of something.

 

Your point regarding the 50k credits is off: The daily crates where never supposed to 'take the stinginess' out of high tier game play. So I assume WG won't change anything in that regard. 

 

If you want to think really economical: Take the consumable crates.

 

 

Greetings

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The most valid of your points is the one about how impression/perception matters, and I agree it really does.

 

I don't think that you have to necessarily give people more stuff or make it more smooth of an experience, but a lot of the issues with perception is about information.

When people write rants and complain about things, 90% of the time it's a non-issue, but it has manifested in their mind due to a lack of information and feedback from the game.

A good example is how games like AW and WT visualize progress. How after each battle you can see the progress you've made and not just get a face-full of numbers.

 

Players have asked for more transparency regarding rewards in battle. But I also think we could benefit from it  in other areas, like loot containers.

There are numerous ways to do it. From the more manipulative "loot wheel" of CS:GO to just basic information regarding general chances of getting certain items. Maybe alleviate the hunt for supercontainers by having a counter for each regular container collected which ensures that you will get a supercontainer at a set interval if not by chance before that point.

 

As you say, there are many ways to tackle this. Some good some bad.

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14 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

You're saying:

 

 

Coupled with:

 

 

Which leads me to believe that you think that the current implementation of the daily XP crates is

 

a) either not fun

 

b) or not fun and to few stuff

 

c) to few stuff

 

Assuming that you're aiming for c) is the reasonable choice since people always complain about getting to little out of something.

 

Your point regarding the 50k credits is off: The daily crates where never supposed to 'take the stinginess' out of high tier game play. So I assume WG won't change anything in that regard. 

 

If you want to think really economical: Take the consumable crates.

 

 

Greetings

Thank you for your tips on economical, but I don't actively play the game atm. I'm also one of those suckers who can't stand not clicking the "supercontainer" option when offered one, even thought it's not the most "economical".

I'd think my current stance is "a". It is simply not fun, there is no drive for me to earn the crates for the sake of earning them, much less enjoy the process. I already have many premiums and hundreds of flags, so economy is not something "dire" to me, but it is very uncomfortable playing the game "feeling" I am losing out. It's just human greed, and as @Nechrom pointed out, perception. This is me being very honest, and I think some general conclusions can be drawn from this which may be helpful for dealing with the playerbase in general.

 

Also, if you don't mind taking some time to check this out:

https://support.ubi.com/en-GB/Faqs/000031846/Discovery-Tour-Mode-of-Assassin-s-Creed-Origins-ACO

This is free if you bought the game. This is historical. And this is not in our game.

So even if I was not (a), but was outright (c), it is still a minor request compared to the above example which requires actual development and content. In comparison, this "free" data-based stuff, some flags, some camo, infinitely replicated, and I'm even willing to earn them, should not be withheld so obviously from the player, especially when the obvious intent (as perceived) is to artificially create pressure to extort money. It is horrendous influence for your game.

 

Cheers.

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2 hours ago, Allied_Winter said:

Also: Somebody has the Skybuck seal available?

You rang, m'lord?

cpANk1j.png

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2 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Thank you for your tips on economical, but I don't actively play the game atm. I'm also one of those suckers who can't stand not clicking the "supercontainer" option when offered one, even thought it's not the most "economical".

 

 

That is your problem then. But it is a non-issue if you realize you will actualy get more out of it if you pick one of the other three containers that fits your needs best. The two extra stuff you get with every container is worth way more than the eventual additional Supercontainer you get due to the higher chance on the try your luck ones. The TYL is basically only for the occasions you feel lucky and don't care about the 2 extra stuff you give up for it. Like in any gamble you have to accept it if you lose.

 

2 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

I'd think my current stance is "a". It is simply not fun, there is no drive for me to earn the crates for the sake of earning them, much less enjoy the process. I already have many premiums and hundreds of flags, so economy is not something "dire" to me, but it is very uncomfortable playing the game "feeling" I am losing out.

 

Well but doesn't that only fix the problem for you? what about all those that "feel loosing out" on the third container already? (because they never have the time to invest more than the 12,5k xp for the secound container) Wouldn't they feel even more "loosing out" if you add more containers?

Again this is all about self entitlement. For me usualy I take what I get and MAY play another match or two if I see I just need some 1k more xp for the next container which is exactly what this system is aiming for. (Usualy i don't care though as I am tired and just go to bed without having hard feelings about those 15 signals i didn't get)

 

Yes Supercontainers are nice but you have to take them for what they are - a sweet enticer - a nice bonus - nothing more.

 

I don't know about you but I can clearly renember the situation before the implementation of containers.

Boring 3 daily missions with meager awards that doesn't even always fit your fleet. (a CV mission but having no CV)

Renembering that I'd take this approach any day thank you.

I feel the containers are mostly fine like they are.

The best thing they may could add are tokens if you draw special modules or special (dragon) signals out of your SC so you can choose which one you actualy want. Could be hard to code though.

 

Edit: You are not supposed to have (only) fun collecting containers. You are supposed to have fun playing the game. (and getting containers on top of it for doing that)

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OP made a well constructed argument, about how the crate system could be improved. I see no reason to bash him as if he were some troll.

 

OT: Coming from the old system with random daily missions the container system is an improvement. It gives you a bunch of usable flags per day, if you are smart and take the more signals option.

 

All else - playing tier 10 without a profit and such - is design to encourage premium. Or permanent camo. Or you just grind credits with other ships (who plays tier 10 exclusively anyway).

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19 minutes ago, Miessa3 said:

That is your problem then. But it is a non-issue if you realize you will actualy get more out of it if you pick one of the other three containers that fits your needs best. The two extra stuff you get with every container is worth way more than the eventual additional Supercontainer you get due to the higher chance on the try your luck ones. The TYL is basically only for the occasions you feel lucky and don't care about the 2 extra stuff you give up for it. Like in any gamble you have to accept it if you lose.

 

Well but doesn't that only fix the problem for you? what about all those that "feel loosing out" on the third container already? (because they never have the time to invest more than the 12,5k xp for the secound container) Wouldn't they feel even more "loosing out" if you add more containers?

Again this is all about self entitlement. For me usualy I take what I get and MAY play another match or two if I see I just need some 1k more xp for the next container which is exactly what this system is aiming for. (Usualy i don't care though as I am tired and just go to bed without having hard feelings about those 15 signals i didn't get)

 

Yes Supercontainers are nice but you have to take them for what they are - a sweet enticer - a nice bonus - nothing more.

 

I don't know about you but I can clearly renember the situation before the implementation of containers.

Boring 3 daily missions with meager awards that doesn't even always fit your fleet. (a CV mission but having no CV)

Renembering that I'd take this approach any day thank you.

I feel the containers are mostly fine like they are.

The best thing they may could add are tokens if you draw special modules or special (dragon) signals out of your SC so you can choose which one you actualy want. Could be hard to code though.

I was here before there were containers too. And honestly, I'm the type that prefer clear missions, with clear conditions, and clear rewards.

I simply do not like the current lootbox system. I have no need for money, flags, or consumables as I have premium ships of pretty much ever tier and lots of classes and fully decked out T0s of every class, multiple. You can even argue I have no need for premium ships either, since I have such a wide selection. So even the supercontainer can not offer me anything that would even raise my eyebrows.

 

Thus any "free stuff" improvements will, if I may put it this way, benefit other players more than me. Not just existing players, but future players, disappointed and left players, and players not having experienced a good Warships game before. 

 

But I am not arguing to get more "free stuff". "Free stuff", if put in perspective, is just more incentive, fun, or enjoyment for the game. Thus what I desire is how to turn this "free stuff" feature into something more, just simply a great feature, a good aspect of the game, something fun and good and all that stuff.

 

But first, before it simply becomes an excellent feature by itself, it must be a great feature in fulfilling its primary purpose, no? So we are back to topic. This feature is not good enough in fulfilling its primary purposes. While I cannot pin down and address each problem professionally, I have made an approximate attempt at doing so. So if more people would be so kind as to help out like you did (in your last sentence), perhaps this feature will sooner reach a stage where it is ready to become more extended, expanded, spectacular, and become a game-level feature instead of gimmick-level.

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3 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

 

First fault, having to choose between "normal" crates, or a "slightly higher chance of supercontainer" makes it a lose-lose. Players can either lose out on a supercontainer for meager rewards, or lose out on meager rewards for even more meager rewards when it fails to give a supercontainer. 

 

One way to design it is to outright take away the supercontainer option, but to slightly raise supercontainer chance in any crate. Or to make supercontainer chance slightly increase for 2nd and 3rd lootbox of the day.

Or you see it like this: you have three options for ok rewards and a low chance to get an SC (which is a win either way compared to nothing at all or the aforementioned daily missions we had before the container system) or you sacrifice some of the ok rewards for a slightly higher chance to get a SC (which is still a win).

 

4 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Second fault, it is an "adding insult to injury" type of feature. On the surface, this feature seems like incredible generosity from WG, able to even give doubloons. However, it is not too difficult a mental maneuver to interpret this as a "different kind of lack of generosity". The grind in this game is clear to all, with tiers 9-10 pretty much unprofitable without some kind of premium account, camo, or flags.

 

 

Which is good for several reasons. Premium account, ships and camos (and sometimes flags) give money to WG so they can keep up the servers. Alternatively, if you are a cheap scrub like I am, you can play a low tier game from time to time which are still fun and will make money so you can enjoy your higher tiers.

 

4 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

The containers, any kind of them, are not sufficient to offset the stinginess of the system.

 

They are not supposed to. They are a daily reward for players who play some games. They are not meant to give you a large economical advantage. That is what different premium offers are for.

 

4 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Even if a player got a supercontainer with doubloons, their joy will turn to detest when they will have to "waste" those doubloons on respeccing a commander, buying a port slot, or other mundane expenses instead of spending it on premium ships, camos, and stuff.

 

Commanders can be respecced with free captain's exp and port slots can be received via different missions (or even normal containers). There is no need to spend dubloons on those. What are the other mundane expenses you are talking about? All I can think of are premium consumables (again, you don't need dubloons for those) or some camos where IMO is also no need to buy them since you get them on a regular basis via missions. Not always the high performing ones in large numbers but you certainly get enough to keep them on ships which need them.

 

4 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Their "happiness" of getting 50k credits from a container is immediately gone the next time they have a bad game with "a bad team", and lose that 50k on the ship repair. They will then do some quick math in their head, note it took them 5 games to earn the container, but having lose it all in one game, mentally write off the containers as any kind of generosity.

 

And again, containers are not supposed to make players playing only tier 9 and 10 without premium account self-sufficient. 50k credits might not be much but compared to nothing at all it is at least something.

 

4 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

My recommended fix for this is firstly, obviously, to improve the game, but since that is difficult, instead to improve on the daily missions and campaigns by fleshing them out to have more features or be more fun. Add in "premium camo tokens" to the containers which can only be used to purchase premium camo for tech-tree ships. Or even not-very-rare "rent-a-premium" tokens which allow players to try out a list of rotating premium ships, but barring high prestige premiums and "difficult to play" premiums as is reasonable.

These ideas actually sound interesting. IMO they could be implemented even without changing anything of the current container system.

 

 

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I have gotten multiple port slots from the credit container. The random one is bit of a letdown when you don't get the supercontainer, but if you don't need credits, camos and flags that much, then missing out on the rewards shouldn't be a big thing. I personally don't prefer the old system that it replaced, since there wasn't a lot of time to complete those missions and I often missed out back then with the missions unfinished. Now you can just play the amount you want and just grab a container or three alongside it, depending on whether you're running xp flags (obviously you wouldn't run xp flags just for the sake of the containers) or premium and such. You don't have to get all of the containers every day and missing one isn't a big deal. Think of them as something extra that isn't a mandatory grind.

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The TLDR is that it's gambling...

 

Sometimes you might get an SC drop for £1 and other times you might sink hundreds of pounds and get nothing but camos.

 

Those are two extremes however.

 

I'd like WG to publish drop chances as then we can make informed decisions.

 

 

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As for me, I'd like to find a way to sell off those extra reserve Captain slots I keep getting in every other container. I have only 51 ships and now I have already 159 empty reserve slots! :Smile_amazed: And the number just keeps growing by the day. :Smile_ohmy:

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7 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

 

 

I'd like WG to publish drop chances as then we can make informed decisions then.

 

 

 

This. All kinds of this.

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4 hours ago, RAHJAILARI said:

As for me, I'd like to find a way to sell off those extra reserve Captain slots I keep getting in every other container. I have only 51 ships and now I have already 159 empty reserve slots! :Smile_amazed: And the number just keeps growing by the day. :Smile_ohmy:

I won four more reserve slots today!

I have 140 ships and only 90 commanders ....... and 113 reserve slots!  :Smile_teethhappy:

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