Torpedoes and collisions - improvement suggestions

[polargull]

I suggest two important improvements.
1) All warships had in reality limited access to torpedoes on board, even destroyers.  It is therefore absolutely out of reality when a destroyer (Longjiang) could send at least 26 torpedoes before game ended! An improvement will be to have a more realistic amount of torpedoes available (ex: 8-12). Reloading? Create a naval base for destroyers where they all start and have to return to for refilling. (Returning to a base for refilling torpedoes could also involve cruisers)

Information: When reloading on board a ship happened, the time for reloading is told to be around 15 minutes. In a game 15 min is too long, so reload time on board must be adapted to the playing time for each battle, perhaps 1-2 minutes (?)

 

2) Collisions
Collision between ships in real world is always a serious thing. In this game a collision between two enemy ships results in a destruction of both. That should also be the case for collision between allied ships!!! It is totally unrealistic that collisions between allied ships have no consequence at all !!!! There are so much bad (and wild) sailing in nearly every gameset. If collisions had consequences I guess we will see behavior-change!
   Collision with land could have two different results. Collision with a steep rock with deep water beneath would in reality demolish the ships construction, specially the bow. If hard enough also ship machinery could be damaged , - how much is dependent of the speed. Collision with more sandy or muddy shores would fasten the ship, depending on the speed. If only a light collision full revers could bring the ship free, else it would be necessary to get help from towboats (or as happened during WW2, other warships). Since towboat probably is little realistic in the game, nor is other warships, going on shore in many cases would result in permanent fastened and therefore vulnerable to destruction from enemy.

Gunnar Graff

PS: I have just experienced something peculiar. I had battleship S. Carolina, heavy and slow. Suddenly came a light cruiser up on my port side (left) and then turning right, crossing the battleship bow. Result collision! Nothing more happened except that I was punished for giving damage to allied. In reality the cruiser would have been given serious damage from the battleship, perhaps been sunk. If the captain survived, he would never be allowed to sail as captain any more. But that is reality. What about letting War of Warships be even more realistic than it is to day?

[Culiacan_Mexico]

9 hours ago, polargull said:

I suggest two important improvements.
1) All warships had in reality limited access to torpedoes on board, even destroyers.  It is therefore absolutely out of reality when a destroyer (Longjiang) could send at least 26 torpedoes before game ended! An improvement will be to have a more realistic amount of torpedoes available (ex: 8-12).

This game is not about reality or being realistic... otherwise CV would rule.

 

DDs have the ability in game to reload multiple times because of game balancing choices.

[ColonelPete]

In reality:

• Ships did not have 20%+ hit ratio vs enemy at combat ranges
• Ships could not put out fire or flooding by pressing a button
• Ships could not repair the hull in a few seconds
• Ships did not know the distance to the enemy with perfect accuracy
• Planes did not reload and start in a couple of seconds
• Ships did not shoot down planes in these numbers, especially not increasing the firepower of the AA by pressing a button

[Capra76]

Anyone know where the BBaby Bingo card went?

[Tungstonid]

56 minutes ago, polargull said:

I suggest two important improvements.
1) All warships had in reality limited access to torpedoes on board, even destroyers.  It is therefore absolutely out of reality when a destroyer (Longjiang) could send at least 26 torpedoes before game ended! An improvement will be to have a more realistic amount of torpedoes available (ex: 8-12). Reloading? Create a naval base for destroyers where they all start and have to return to for refilling. (Returning to a base for refilling torpedoes could also involve cruisers)

Information: When reloading on board a ship happened, the time for reloading is told to be around 15 minutes. In a game 15 min is too long, so reload time on board must be adapted to the playing time for each battle, perhaps 1-2 minutes (?)

Do you really think this is a good idea after all the games you played with DDs, especially with IJN ones?... Oh wait, my bad.

On a serious note: There are reasons why WoWS lacks realism in certain departments. Most DDs only had one shot with every torpedoe launcher (except for some IJN DDs which could reload on the open sea once) before rearming at a base or larger ship (was that even a thing?). Now imaging what the game turns into if you take away unlimited torpedoes. Most DDs will - after launching their torpedoes - return to the base to rearm instead of giving needed support in spotting, contesting objectives and harassing. Depending on where you put the reload bases this might take ages. They need some minutes to return to the base, wait a minute or two and then have to return to the battlefield. I just don't see how this can be any fun. Especially because torpedoe salvoes are far from being a guaranteed kill.

While USN, SU, KM (and Pan-Asian) DDs can still use their guns and are not totally reliant on their torpedoes, this is not the case for IJN DDs because their guns are ok-ish but just can't keep with everyone else's.

Why don't you try how your idea would work? Start the IJN DD line and go to tier 3 or 4. You have one torpedoe salvo and if you want more you have to retreat to your spawn and wait one or two minutes. Only then you can return to the battlefield again. Or you start a training room session with bots under the same conditions, although this is way easier because the bots will be stationary and won't shoot back.

 

56 minutes ago, polargull said:

2) Collisions

Collision between ships in real world is always a serious thing. In this game a collision between two enemy ships results in a destruction of both. That should also be the case for collision between allied ships!!! It is totally unrealistic that collisions between allied ships have no consequence at all !!!! There are so much bad (and wild) sailing in nearly every gameset. If collisions had consequences I guess we will see behavior-change!
   Collision with land could have two different results. Collision with a steep rock with deep water beneath would in reality demolish the ships construction, specially the bow. If hard enough also ship machinery could be damaged , - how much is dependent of the speed. Collision with more sandy or muddy shores would fasten the ship, depending on the speed. If only a light collision full revers could bring the ship free, else it would be necessary to get help from towboats (or as happened during WW2, other warships). Since towboat probably is little realistic in the game, nor is other warships, going on shore in many cases would result in permanent fastened and therefore vulnerable to destruction from enemy.

This was suggested before but, again, for the sake of better gameplay was not implemented. If anything this won't lead to a change of behaviour but to more toxicity in chat and easier harassing of team members.

A similar thing goes for islands. While I would give it a try, I wouldn't implement it permanently. And to rely on (random) team mates to free you from the beach? I'd rather prefer not to...

 

56 minutes ago, polargull said:

Gunnar Graff

PS: I have just experienced something peculiar. I had battleship S. Carolina, heavy and slow. Suddenly came a light cruiser up on my port side (left) and then turning right, crossing the battleship bow. Result collision! Nothing more happened except that I was punished for giving damage to allied. In reality the cruiser would have been given serious damage from the battleship, perhaps been sunk. If the captain survived, he would never be allowed to sail as captain any more. But that is reality. What about letting War of Warships be even more realistic than it is to day?

When two friendly ships ram each other, both captains get a penalty, no matter what the chat messages say.

A certain mesaure of realism is ok but the most important thing should be the gameplay which automically will lead to less realism. WoWS is not a simulation game.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

18 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Anyone know where the BBaby Bingo card went?

 

Got sunk by a Kamikaze R torpedo

 

[aboomination]

[Cyclops_]

Ok, if all those ideas where implimented, we would need a crew there of 100 players to sail, man the guns, steer the ship man the radar screen, hydro screen, be firefighters, damage repair party etc,etc and then how the  hell are you going choose who is going to be the captain??.

 

So in the absence of a crew of 100 + to man all the equipment and make decisions  ( male and female ) you have 1 player doing all of this and just to make it actually playable you have to make it so it is playable by one person, so good luck in getting a 100 mates so you can play a destroyer for real.

[gekkehenkie50]

@Capra76@Deckeru_Maiku

Ressurected it for ya

 

Edit: Interestingly enough it seems we jumped to conclusions;

So I guess we should have a low-tier cruiser bingo now?

[Tungstonid]

1 hour ago, gekkehenkie50 said:

 

Edit: Interestingly enough it seems we jumped to conclusions;

So I guess we should have a low-tier cruiser bingo now?

Yeah, it is not really a BBaby thread but an actual request for more realism. That should have been clear from the beginning, though. Nowhere he mentions how the bad DDs make large holes in his BB with their torpedoes so they need to be nerfed.

But it is interesting to see how some people jump to conclusions as soon as they read certain key words or phrases like "limited torpedoes" and neglect the actual point of the thread.

[wilkatis_LV]

2 hours ago, Capra76 said:

Anyone know where the BBaby Bingo card went?

 

Oh the irony...

 

 

[elblancogringo]

The only thing I would change about torpedoes is the sound when they hit a ship!

I may be wrong, but shouldn't they explode louder?

(no idea if the fact that the explosion is underwater makes the current sound good/realistic/loud enough? sounds weird to me)

[Excavatus]

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

Oh the irony...

 

 

 

is that %42 WR with cruisers? or my maths gone window licking?

 

7 hours ago, elblancogringo said:

The only thing I would change about torpedoes is the sound when they hit a ship!

I may be wrong, but shouldn't they explode louder?

(no idea if the fact that the explosion is underwater makes the current sound good/realistic/loud enough? sounds weird to me)

oh no.. I like that BLOBG! sound when torps hit :) it is funny! But yet again.

WE NEED BETTER AND MUCH BIGGER ANIMATIONS, EXPLOSIONS and SHOWS for DETONATIONS!

I wanted to be seen from the moon!

[Tungstonid]

9 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

 

is that %42 WR with cruisers? or my maths gone window licking?

It is. Just visit OP's profile.

But what I found more fascinating is his excessive number of battles in DDs coupled with his suggestion. 

(Warning, sarcasm detected)

[T0byJug]

18 hours ago, polargull said:

I suggest two important improvements.
1) All warships had in reality limited access to torpedoes on board, even destroyers.  It is therefore absolutely out of reality when a destroyer (Longjiang) could send at least 26 torpedoes before game ended! An improvement will be to have a more realistic amount of torpedoes available (ex: 8-12). Reloading? Create a naval base for destroyers where they all start and have to return to for refilling. (Returning to a base for refilling torpedoes could also involve cruisers)

Information: When reloading on board a ship happened, the time for reloading is told to be around 15 minutes. In a game 15 min is too long, so reload time on board must be adapted to the playing time for each battle, perhaps 1-2 minutes (?)

 

2) Collisions

Gunnar Graff

PS: I have just experienced something peculiar. I had battleship S. Carolina, heavy and slow. Suddenly came a light cruiser up on my port side (left) and then turning right, crossing the battleship bow. Result collision! Nothing more happened except that I was punished for giving damage to allied. In reality the cruiser would have been given serious damage from the battleship, perhaps been sunk. If the captain survived, he would never be allowed to sail as captain any more. But that is reality. What about letting War of Warships be even more realistic than it is to day?

First In Beta Collisions was a thing Damage when frend V freind hit was much much larger. It was toned down to aid gameplay

 

Torpedoes True most DDs carried no reloads at all. In game only realy IJN DD had reloads. But a DD in game douse not to my mind represent a single . Look at just about every Naval Battles in history. there was almost always 5 to 10 times the number of DD in a fleet than Battleships. Think of a single DD in game as a Squadron of DDs.

 

 

[eliastion]

19 hours ago, polargull said:

1) All warships had in reality limited access to torpedoes on board, even destroyers.  It is therefore absolutely out of reality when a destroyer (Longjiang) could send at least 26 torpedoes before game ended! An improvement will be to have a more realistic amount of torpedoes available (ex: 8-12).

So, I take it you would prefer a more realistic game where - to keep up with actual worth and prevalence of ships - instead of one DD with multiple reloads of torps you'd see players commanding a small fleet of DDs, or at least sailing with DD reloads, that is: multiple lives so that they could scrap their DD after one attack and pick another one with torps loaded and ready to go while their first ship returns to base on autopilot?

 

This is a game, mate. A game based on the premise that each players controls one ship. Obviously, this means that ships are meant to have somewhat comparable impact - despite the fact that realistically the cost and impact of a single destroyer was not comparable to that of a battleship, not by a long shot. And then there were CVs that pretty much relegated all the other classes to support roles...

 

So no. We certainly do not need the realism you ask for - trying to implement any of the things you suggest would make the game a bit more realistic, perhaps, but also significantly worse as a game. And, guess what: WoWs is a game first and above all. And its quality as a product is determined by how good of a game it is, realism being important only as far as it improves player experience, mostly by tying into the naval warfare theme.

[polargull]

To all of you that have contributed to the discussions about Destroyers and torpedoes and collisions (ships and shores) - thanks.

 

I agree that this is a game. Of course! That is why we do play WoW. BUT - realism is an important part of this game. Think about the beatifully and highly realistic ships we have to play with. The main guns are also made with a high degree of realism, both caliber and reload time (20-30 sec. reloadtime for S.Colorado is a trial for my nerves, but probably very realistic!) There are many more examples of a high degree of realism in this game. But, as several of you have pointet out - this is a game. In that I agree. Every battle lasts 20 minutes (?). In that short time we have to (both) destroy all enemy ships and hopefully also have conquered the neccesary areas. That means that some compromises in the "reality-factor" has to be tolerated. 

 

1. The idea of a naval base for reloading of torpedoes is therefore probably no good idea. The suggestion will therefore be: let destoyers have more torpedoes than in reality, but let the number be limited. 26 torpedoes, which I counted in one battle, is far too many. Perhaps a limit of 12? A limited number of torpedoes will educate the captains to behave more strategic, and probably discover the art of collaborating (remember the real battle of Northcape, 4 destroyers (with ony 5 torpedoes each) vs. Scharnhorst).

 

2. Collision: This is the point where something absolutely should be done. Why? Same happening but differrent outcome depending on foe or friend. Ramming an allied ship has no other consequence than reducing money-income. Ramming an enemy is destruction of both ships. A change here, exact same behavior gives exact same result is logic and as I see it, will not reduce the good game-feeling. There are too many "captains" that sail into allied ships, I have noticed. Hopefully a concrete result of a collision that reduces or destroy the ships will learn the captains to be more careful where they steer their ships.

 

Collision with land also should have consequences, depending on the texture of the land and the speed of the ship. 

 

All what I have said and proposed has taken into consideration that this is a game, and all is man made programming. I agreee that all changes must take into consideration the time disponible for eache game. Realism and game-experience is not contradictionary but are important parts of our experience of the game.

[Exocet6951]

51 minutes ago, polargull said:

1. The idea of a naval base for reloading of torpedoes is therefore probably no good idea. The suggestion will therefore be: let destoyers have more torpedoes than in reality, but let the number be limited. 26 torpedoes, which I counted in one battle, is far too many. Perhaps a limit of 12? A limited number of torpedoes will educate the captains to behave more strategic, and probably discover the art of collaborating (remember the real battle of Northcape, 4 destroyers (with ony 5 torpedoes each) vs. Scharnhorst).

 

Why?

I want you to explain why DDs need to have limited ammunition. And not just limited, but apparently only one or two reload.

 

 

 

[polargull]

I have to answer to Exocet6951's question with another question, since I in my two posts have given at least some explanation. My question is: why have some battleship to wait up to 30 second between shots from main guns, and why do some battleship make only up to around 20 knots and takes a serious long time to turn? Is the answer to these questions - realism?

[Capra76]

2 minutes ago, polargull said:

 Is the answer to these questions - realism?

 

No, it's balance.

[mariouus]

1 hour ago, polargull said:

why do some battleship make only up to around 20 knots and takes a serious long time to turn? Is the answer to these questions - realism?

They are both balance and realism. If real things fit into game, they used realistic values. If it did not, they used something fitting for that tier.

[Exocet6951]

1 hour ago, polargull said:

I have to answer to Exocet6951's question with another question, since I in my two posts have given at least some explanation. My question is: why have some battleship to wait up to 30 second between shots from main guns, and why do some battleship make only up to around 20 knots and takes a serious long time to turn? Is the answer to these questions - realism?

 

Because you can't have battleships with guns twice or thrice as big as the ones on the next biggest class reloading as quickly as the latter.
Also, BBs that only go 20 knots turn better than cruisers of similar tier. Only fast battleships at T7+ start having very wide turn radii.
Case in point :
Wyoming turn radius: 590m

Phoenix turn radius: 630m
Beyond that, it's not even just balance, but it's basic common sense: the ships with four times more armor, two to four times the HP due to being two to four times heavier, and  guns two to three times bigger than the second biggest class are going to be slower and reload more slowly.

Extract that basic common sense to any other type of game to have your answer. 
Why don't rocket launcher in FPS games fire as quickly as submachine guns? Because it's it's self evident to any reasonable person why it isn't the case.
Why don't racing games have one type of car that's faster in straight lines and has better handling as well? Because you can't reasonably expect anyone to play anything else than that blatantly superior hypothetical type of car.

 

 

So now I want you to answer the question, because everyone here knows damn well what your real answer is, and you're pussyfooting around it.
Why do you want DDs to suffer from a catastrophic flaw which would render pointless all but the dedicated gunboats, and thus then by extension render the gunboat pointless.

[polargull]

xocet6951! Most of what you have written, I do not understand. "Common sense"? I know what reality is, and I am trying to learn the rules of WoW and how it is programmed. If everyone here "knows damn well what my real answer is, why ask? All I have done is to suggest what I see as an improvement, namely suggestions about not ulimited amount of torpedoes and equal result of collisions between ships regardless of foe or friend. I have got some answers. Some has given me better understanding, some has not. I think it must be up to the programmers to decide how realistic the game can be, given the frames  and intentions of the game.

Well: enough of torpedo-talk. I have another question to you, since you obviously are a much more experienced player than me. It is about the battleship S. Carolina. All US battleships from that periode had secondary guns along both sides, probably 6 12,7 cm guns on each side. When I am in battle, it seems that the secondary guns are not firing. 12,7cm is mostly same calibre as the small destroyers from same periode had. I have never registrated that secondary guns ever have damaged or sunk a destroyer, neither can I see any traces of shells from secondary guns. Is my observation correct? 

[Johnny_Moneto]

12 minutes ago, polargull said:

All US battleships from that periode had secondary guns along both sides, probably 6 12,7 cm guns on each side. When I am in battle, it seems that the secondary guns are not firing. 12,7cm is mostly same calibre as the small destroyers from same periode had. I have never registrated that secondary guns ever have damaged or sunk a destroyer, neither can I see any traces of shells from secondary guns. Is my observation correct? 

And again: the game is not a simulation. Secondaries work only on automatic nad have a much shorter range then their counterparts in real life. You can find the range of your secondaries by pressing the H key ingame or in port by unfolding the Artillery section of a ship and hover with your mouse over the secondaries.

[EmilyFara]

On 21-2-2018 at 12:12 AM, Capra76 said:

Anyone know where the BBaby Bingo card went?

It got all checked off... Wg used it as their design philosophy. 

 

That said. In reality the ships had a full staff of lookouts and navigational officers to prevent collisions. And they had a separate staff manning the gun directors. Ingame you have to do both at the same time. Collisions with teammates are difficult to detect in advance when in a heated gunfight and would be too punishing.