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MadSlob

Destroyer numbers

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Just a quick one for the wargaming team....Why is it that they cant fix the matchmaking so that both teams have the SAME amount of destroyers in them...in my eyes the DDs are crucial to success in any game and time and time again i see my team lacking a DD especially around these events like we are now having..surely surely it cannot be hard to wait another 10 seconds for a DD to become available !!!!!! or is it deliberate policy......Thoughts and some real answers please...

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If all the DD players in a game were to the same standard of skill then it would matter...but probably 100% of the time they are not. So the team with the lower numbers could have the better DD's. For instance, I had a game earlier tonight where we had 3 and the enemy 4. I was in a kami and within probably 5 mins all the enemy dd's were dead and we had lost none. I never worry if I am out numbered in a DD or even in a team with a DD less as obviously we will have an extra BB or CA.

 

Edit - I think @MrConway or someone recently posted up some stats which showed that it didn't matter much at all.

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the optimum word is could here...No guarantees at all which puts the enemy at an advantage...Cheers for your thoughts on this :)

 

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It's typically not the number of DDs that's deciding (barring the odd occasion where one team get's only one DD, the other gets two and thus essentially a free cap in Domination, which can be a bothersome start) but the amount of back-up they have in case two DDs clash (and in the higher tiers, how many ships on your team have radar, which is MUCH more important to balance between the teams than DD numbers imho).

 

In that case, I'd prefer having a DD less and a (radar) cruiser more that helps me shoot up the enemy DD ... tends to resolve the DD number advantage rather nicely.

 

That is of course assuming those cruisers actually help, or even feel save enough to help depending on whether the BBs are doing their job attracting aggro and tanking so the entire enemy team has other things to worry about than happily focusing cruisers that actually want to support DDs.

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Most games are decided by ship kills, not by caps. Look at result screens that are posted regularly on the forum. Most losing teams 

end up with less ships than winning team.

1 DD difference has no significant impact on winning a match.

What you lose in capping power, you gain in firepower.

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cheers colonel....i guess in a way it the way i play DDs(not terribly well i might add) i tend to spot for the team...screen against enemy dds and cap if i can....torping is only secondary to these:)

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It is not just that DD players have different skill levels and that it is more important who got more and better support but not every DD plays the same. Different concealment ratings (e.g. Shimakaze vs Khabarovsk) and main weapons (torpedoe boat vs hybrid vs gun boat) are also important.

Some Khaba players don't (want to) go for caps because they are outspotted by every other DD and therefore can draw fire faster than their IJN/USN/PAN-Asian counterpart, not to mention that they are best at using their speed plus shooting from higher distances. Just to give one example.

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As a dd main I usually prefer to have 1 less dd on my team. Too many dd's and they become a liability to each other as well. 

Especially 4 or more dd's is a disaster. I really hate games like that. Especially if a friendly dd wants to tag along into the same cap as I'm going. Completely ruïnes the tactics. And they can also royally [edited]up for you and your team by early and misplaced smoke. 

/Rant 

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5 hours ago, stewie533 said:

As a dd main I usually prefer to have 1 less dd on my team. Too many dd's and they become a liability to each other as well. 

Especially 4 or more dd's is a disaster. I really hate games like that. Especially if a friendly dd wants to tag along into the same cap as I'm going. Completely ruïnes the tactics. And they can also royally [edited]up for you and your team by early and misplaced smoke. 

/Rant 

I find that the best number of DDs is two, maybe three if one can sneak a cap alone (preferably me :Smile_Default:), if one is a cruiser like Khaba, or if one happens to die early. The team can't generally support more than two DDs capping without spreading too thin.

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Most of the time it is not the number of DDs that is crucial, but their type and relative level. Unfortunately the current matchmaker disregards both and does not account for Russian gun-boat non-DDs or balances DDs that are not top tier.

8 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Most games are decided by ship kills, not by caps. Look at result screens that are posted regularly on the forum. Most losing teams 

end up with less ships than winning team.

1 DD difference has no significant impact on winning a match.

What you lose in capping power, you gain in firepower.

And while I agree that most of the time battles are not decided by capping the spotting advantage of an unopposed DD is huge and will often lead to said kills. There is a reason why most captital ships turn tail once their DD screen is gone. Being permaspotted is a pain in the a** for most CAs and sometimes also for BBs (especially if low health / under pressure already) in addition to the constant thread of potentially devastating torpedo barrages.

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9 hours ago, MadSlob said:

..surely surely it cannot be hard to wait another 10 seconds for a DD to become available !!!!!!

With the current meta of BBs, and the wait time for DDs being fairly low, they should be able to do that.

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Weekend Tester
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You might ask a similar question about why you get 5x DDs per side in one game, then one or zero the next - all whilst there are 20k players online. Or perhaps why so many DDs appear to be AFK for a lengthy period at the start of a game (to the extent that this phenomena has been commented on in each server forum).

 

Its possible that the game engine deliberately introduces an element of asymmetry into MM, as part of an overall strategy to randomise the outcomes.

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11 hours ago, bushwacker001 said:

If all the DD players in a game were to the same standard of skill then it would matter...but probably 100% of the time they are not. So the team with the lower numbers could have the better DD's. For instance, I had a game earlier tonight where we had 3 and the enemy 4. I was in a kami and within probably 5 mins all the enemy dd's were dead and we had lost none. I never worry if I am out numbered in a DD or even in a team with a DD less as obviously we will have an extra BB or CA.

 

Edit - I think @MrConway or someone recently posted up some stats which showed that it didn't matter much at all.

 

 

image.jpeg

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On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 11:14 PM, Aotearas said:

It's typically not the number of DDs that's deciding (barring the odd occasion where one team get's only one DD, the other gets two and thus essentially a free cap in Domination, which can be a bothersome start) but the amount of back-up they have in case two DDs clash (and in the higher tiers, how many ships on your team have radar, which is MUCH more important to balance between the teams than DD numbers imho).

 

In that case, I'd prefer having a DD less and a (radar) cruiser more that helps me shoot up the enemy DD ... tends to resolve the DD number advantage rather nicely.

 

That is of course assuming those cruisers actually help, or even feel save enough to help depending on whether the BBs are doing their job attracting aggro and tanking so the entire enemy team has other things to worry about than happily focusing cruisers that actually want to support DDs.

 

Food chain imho: capping DD - support CA - sniper BB

 

DD duel win is always up to the direct support from radar cruiser and BB AP hits.  Pure DD vs DD duel causes like 5% of all DD losses.

 

Typical random battle situation: 1v1 DDs trying to cap, radar cruisers push in to support, sniper BBs random citadel one of the CAs, the remaining CA + his DD wrecks the DD with no support. An unsupported Z52 cannot do crap against a DM supported Kagero...

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On 2/19/2018 at 11:09 PM, bushwacker001 said:

So the team with the lower numbers could have the better DD's

gcM.gif

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On ‎2018‎-‎02‎-‎19 at 11:14 PM, Aotearas said:

It's typically not the number of DDs that's deciding (barring the odd occasion where one team get's only one DD, the other gets two and thus essentially a free cap in Domination, which can be a bothersome start) but the amount of back-up they have in case two DDs clash (and in the higher tiers, how many ships on your team have radar, which is MUCH more important to balance between the teams than DD numbers imho).

 

I agree that the amount of backup from cruisers and battleships is more relevant for an early cap advantage, than the number of destroyers involved. Now if I could only teach myself to employ that knowledge on a regular basis by getting the heck outta Dodge as soon as I start taking fire during an early cap contest... I've lost count of the number of times I just couldn't bring myself to disengage, and got shot to pieces for it.

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On 2/19/2018 at 11:09 PM, bushwacker001 said:

If all the DD players in a game were to the same standard of skill then it would matter...but probably 100% of the time they are not. So the team with the lower numbers could have the better DD's. For instance, I had a game earlier tonight where we had 3 and the enemy 4. I was in a kami and within probably 5 mins all the enemy dd's were dead and we had lost none. I never worry if I am out numbered in a DD or even in a team with a DD less as obviously we will have an extra BB or CA.

its not so mutch a thing of skill tho. it is that the 1 side with 4 DDs has a way better spotting advantage. and the  DD players can be total newbies and still be so usefull for the team when they randomly spot a  ship. and OFC the side with 1 DD more has that advantage.  its the same thing with the radar cruiser ballance. 

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I've been playing mainly DDs lately, and my (obviously, subjective) impression is that the teams' relative DD numbers matter much less than the relative skill of the DD drivers, and the degree to which the second echelon make use of the DDs' services, and support them.

I did start off thinking words to the effect of "they have more DDs than us - we're Doomed", but it didn't take too many battles for the evidence to soon start contradicting that thought process...

 

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Apart from skill, support and numbers very often it is also type and level of destroyers that are pitched against each other that can greatly influence any battle. Too often have I seen setups like Shimakaze, Shimakaze, Benson (me) vs Gearing, Yueyang, Z-46 and Kagero in a domination game and I instantly knew that if I do not manage to kill at least 3 enemy DD myself we probably will neither win any cap nor this battle.

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On 20.02.2018 at 10:29 AM, bushwacker001 said:

Ah, I was right about it being someone then :Smile_hiding:

As it was said in the mentioned thread - again we get scraps of mangled information. Only total "DD numbers", without differentiating between capping DD, or some pseudo-DD light cruisers like Khaba or Tashkent. Zero information about divisions, zero info about which map was played and which mode.

Zero differentiating between "0 vs 1" and "4 vs 5" situations. 

 

Why can't we get normal query in the API to get those numbers for any parameters we need? What is so confidential in that? :cap_cool:

Wouldn't it be easier and less burdening the WG staff if we could get the information and verify particular effects by ourselves? 

 

In standard mode DD number doesn't matter that much as in domination or epicenter. In 3-cap domination and 2 DD vs 3 DD the team with extra DD gets not only extra free cap point, but also extra pushing flank. Half of the victory already granted for free. Don't tell me that a scared cruiser some 15km in the back will equalize that.

General Rule of Random Pushing: Randoms never push if they don't have a DD in front of them. 

Everybody who actually plays the game solo in Sunday afternoon knows that!

 

The effect is stronger in middle tiers T5-T7/T8. At lower tiers small cruisers can still be a threat to DD and can be played more like a DD, in turn in higher tiers there are abundant "skills" like hydro or radar, or manually dropping CV, which can counter that one extra DD. 

 

The influence of number of capping DD on the result of a domination or epicenter games is obvious. 

Summing up all results for all game types, DD numbers, kinds, and tiers is just useless average - using that by the Game Developers as an argument against equalizing DD numbers in teams would be pathetic if it wasn't true. :cap_old:

 

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