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On 17-3-2018 at 12:49 PM, cherry2blost said:

But.. and this is a big BUT... the ship is in no way OP it is another vessel similar to the Fiji that REWARDS experienced players in orders of magnitude. So yes OP in the right hands and downright meh when used by someone with less experience.

 

But Fiji also severely punishes bad play like other RN cruisers. Lyon is not much more fragile than say a Nagato, while (aside from overmatch) having substantial strenghts compared to her.

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On 17/03/2018 at 8:20 PM, RAMJB said:

I'm sorry, it's OP. Let me give the reasons why:
T7 BB contenders: Colorado, Nagato, Scharnhorst,Gneisenau, KGV, DoY, Nelson.

-Speed: middle of the ground, 27 knots means it leaves Colorado and nagato in the dust, and is almost tied with KGV and DoY most of the time.

-Maneouverability: 11.7 rudder shift. By far best at tier. 700m turning radius. Only Colorado is better, that by 10% and colorado has to chug along in a turn at 18-19 knots while Lyon does at 24-25 (so traverse per second is FAR higher in the Lyon). Literally it's a windmill BB.

-AAA: some of the best stuff at T7, only Gneisenau is objectively better and even then Lyon beats it in range (5.2km AAA base range).

 

-Secondaries: base of 5.2km range (beats the german twins), a total of 24 guns with pretty decent arcs, 9% fire chance and good reload. I've ran Gneisenaus with secondary builds and by now I'm quite sure this one will be better at it.

- Main battery: 16 guns is utterly ridiculous. Dispersion being not great actually work in their favor, the shotgun effect DOES kill WASD-ing cruisers with outrageous reliability. I'm tired of getting citadelled in cruisers while WASD-ing at long ranges against Lyons only to get citadelled anyways by some stray shell. The number of shells in a volley is just too much to reliably avoid. Only downside is the caliber when dealing with overmatches but given how hard it's HE hits bow-on opposition is not a problem. Turret angles don't favor a pure bow-on approach, but with that rudder shift coming out-and-into autobounce angles to unmask the guns at the proper time is a child's play so that's almost a non-factor.

-Concealment: Roughly the same as Scharnhorst's, which means more than good enough to sneak into firing positions where you can pretty much drop the hammer on enemy cruisers at will while all they can do is try to flee in terror while they're blasted to smithereens

 

-Survability: Probably it's weakest trait. Armor is...actually pretty decent. Spaced armor-on-top-of-turtleback arrangement means it's more resilient than what the uninspiring thicknesses might look like at first to incoming broadside fire. Still eats citadels broadside on, but the armor layout is far more resilient than say, a Nagato's. doesn't mean from certain angles isn't weak, but still is more than good enough for a T7.  HP pool is not specially high (even while it's in Scharnhorst's ballpark, it doesn't have Scharnhorst's armor). Add to that that it's not a particularily large ship.


Summing up in most regards Lyon is top class, specially on frepower. Agility, top marks, speed, high marks, firepower best marks by far of the whole tier. Concealment, high marks. Even survability aint' bad. So even at it's weakest trait, Lyon is still GOOD ENOUGH, being best-or-almost the best in everything else.

That's pretty much the summary of an OP ship. That potatoes can't shine on it doesn't mean it's not OP, it means that if potatoes can't shine even on a smoked radarhydro Belfast, they won't in a battleship either.

But the ship is a straight up OP monster that should've never been introduced in it's current form. Far too many strenghts without any real weaknesses (not even the survability). With those strennghts and 16 guns, it means laughable gunplay, specially against a class that's already far too hard to play well (cruisers), and don't deserve to have to deal with this apocaliptic monster in almost every game they play.

And even more when there's no reason why a ship that was designed to be a lumbering dreadnought with a  (theoretical) top speed of 22.5 knots can top off 27 with those rudder shift times and turning radiuses which make absolutely no sense from the historical nor gameplay points of view.

this thing needs a SERIOUS (not moderate, serious) nerf to it's maneouverability/speed and then it'll be OK. At 27 knots, with that maneuverability, AA and guns, it's certainly not OK.

 

All those traits are true, however to be able o use more than one turret means giving a terrible angle for taking damage, so a lot of the time you are contending with one turret when facing the enemy or max 3 when kiting away, the rear armour is terrible, takes a lot of damage from rear... so to best use the armour layout you only have use of one turret up front..... Powerful ship YES.. OP not quite.... 

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Well as I said the turret angle problem is minimized because it has such an incredible rudder shift (which you can improve with the rudder module). All you have to do is to go in at a very steep angle, tank the incoming fire, unmask turrets, fire, return to autobounce angle, and wait for the dude whos shooting at you to do it again. Rinse and repeat.

You can do it in a Gneisenau at 14-ish second rudder shift, much more with a Lyon with a 11s one (not to mention the much tighter turn).

I remain adamant, the thing is OP for a T7 BB.

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9 hours ago, RAMJB said:

...I remain adamant, the thing is OP for a T7 BB.

Yes it is nice to have - for a while - a tier 7 silver ship that is competitive with all the tier 7 pay to win premium ships.

 

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Other than the absurd CVs and the ridiculous Belfast, I don't see any "pay to win" premium ships at T7 the lyon needed  to be OP to counter?. I mean, the destroyer premiums are all good, some fantastic, but certainly not OP. Cruisers?. Indianapolis and Atlanta have radar but blow up when looked wrong (and they are always looked VERY wrong :P) and neither of them is OP anyway. Flint is OP mostly because it's always handled by a top-quality player, but is not pay-to-win by definition as is a reward ship (And still dies if looked wrong. Of course having smoke is much more difficult to look at XD).

As for BBs go...well, Ashitakas I have rarely found so can't really say but all I've read about them is that is garbage.  Scharnhorst is fantastic because is fun as heck to play, but nowhere near OP. DoY certainly isn't OP (KGV seems better all things considered) nor is Hood. And Nelson can be very strong because of the megaheal but if subjected to proper focus fire it dies pretty quickly so while powerful, I don't see it as really OP. And it's nominally not a "pay" ship at all unless the player wants to (I'm saving up for mine, for instance. 250k free xp atm so I should have it soon-ish)

There already were competitive T7 BBs. Gneisenau is nothing short of fantastic. KGV seems really good (even while it is so because of the braindead HE stuff nobody really likes but WG went for anyway). Nagato was brutal in the right hands...and Colorado....Ok, people hated it because they said it sucks, all I know is that I did really good in mine back when I grinded it and for me it worked really well. Yes, speed sucks, but other than that it had 406mm firepower, excellent maneouverability, very good armor and really strong AAA.

However I guess that right now however both Colorado and Nagato probably feel like floating coffins because other than the ability to overmatch a bow on Lyon they have absolutely no trump card to play over it. Lyon has them owned in all regards except protection vs colorado and sheer hp pool vs nagato. Speed, AAA, firepower, maneouverability, etc, all the rest the Lyon is laughably stronger. Those ships have been powercreeped into oblivion, and that's yet another reason why I sincerely loathe the Lyon. 

OP stuff is never good. And this ship certainly ain't healthy for the game.

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I haven't played Nagato for a while but aside from being a bit forgotten due to new line releases I don't see why she wouldn't be among the top T7 BBs. If I remember correctly she had the greatest and most accurate firepower at the tier and that hasn't changed. She's decently fast and her armour bounces 14" with ease so doesn't matter if it's New Mexico firing 12 or Lyon firing 16 it's all bouncing off anyway, while the opposite is devastating. I think people have just forgotten or think vanilla = bad. There's always an "omg OP" bandwagon with new ships.

 

But there's very little P2W at T7, with BBs there is none. The player matters more than the ship anyway, people complaining about individual ships are just confessing their lack of understanding.

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Nagato has been powercreeped badly IMO. The german Twins already sidelined her "vanilla" speed advantage a long time ago on top of making the Nagato's secondary build obsolete (you don't want to be anywhere near one of the twins, they both have better secondaries on top of torpedoes, so the once pretty powerful Nagato secondary build is no more), the british KGV sidelined her speed even more (alongside DoY) while adding the abominable british HE to the table (and Nagato suffers from it tremendously because of the massive superstructure). Her protective scheme is aceptable but not really good (was already vastly inferior to Colorado's, and now both the german twins and the british ones also have better armor overall). And Nagato has poor AAA (compared to most other T7s) on top of it.

Lyon worsens it by a fair bit. Again, speed advantage is for the Lyon, maneouverability to Lyon, AAA to Lyon, firepower (in raw DPM) to the Lyon. Lyon has worse hp pool and protection (even while nagato's own armor is not exactly great to begin with, at least it still has a massive HP pool), everything else, Lyon is better, and in most cases VASTLY better.

Nagato used to be fantastic. German BBs introduction turned it into good. British BBs turned it into average at best, Lyon has turned it into a mediocre powercreeped BB.

Don't take me wrong, she's still a good BB when in good hands, but on the same good hands a Lyon will do far better, everytime. That doesn't mean I'm stating that Vanilla=Bad, but facts are facts and Nagato has been powercreeped into mediocrity.

And don't get me started with Colorado...

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23 hours ago, RAMJB said:

Other than the absurd CVs and the ridiculous Belfast, I don't see any "pay to win" premium ships at T7 the lyon needed  to be OP to counter?.

Warships today EU stats are currently corrupt.

Check out the Warships Today NA stats, last 2 weeks, all PvP, tier 7.

Win rate from highest to lowest is:

Flint

Saipan

Kaga

Belfast

Nelson

Gadjah

Atlanta

Blyska

Shiratsuyu

Leningrad

Scharnhorst

Hood

Lyon

Duke of York

Fiji

Sims

Maass

Hiryu

King George

Ashitaka

Indianapolis

Minsk + 18 more silver and ARP ships

 

 

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Flint has those results because the players ,far more than because of the ship. And even while the ship on itself is very, very good, it's not a "P2W" because it's never been a purchasable ship.

Belfast, Kaga and Saipan I already mentioned they're obviously OP as all hells but lyon being OP or not is no counter for them (other than in the AAA, but the problem with lyon is not the AAA but the mix of 16 guns in a ship coming  very close to steaming at 30 knots). Nelson no matter it's stats (which are excellent) is not REALLY OP. It's only reason to be so strong is a gimmick (megaheal) and as all gimmicks it won't last if the ship is properly focus fired by an aware team. Nelson doesn't really have a way to deal with being primaried, because is slow as a snail, it's protection is really nothing to talk about, has the concealment of a bright neon billboard in a dark night and can't get out of dogde quick enough nor "dissapear" if things get nasty.

The problem is that they almost never get nasty enough because most players are more bothered with missing shots against maneouvering cruisers at long range in the now too long, everlasting, search for the golden devastating strike, than with focusing a target that can't dogde, is not very well protected, but that if not focus fired will rain hell upon the enemy team.

Nelson's problem is that aware teams are kind of like the fountain of youth, everyone says they exist, but they're almost impossible to find. Most Nelsons aren't primaried and focused as they should because most players don't have a clue on how important is focus fire against that particular target - those Nelsons which are, however, primaried as they should be, die, in my experience, as fast as any silver T7 BB.

And again is a ship that you can get for free, so nominally no "P2W".

Honestly I can't fathom why Hood is so up in the list, that one surprised me, it's a ship with very severe limitations. Then again Scharnhorst has similar limitations (terribly weak main battery against BBs) and is high on the list ,so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

Main point is that Lyon doesn't have a bigger winrate because honestly, it's the biggest noob magnet I've ever seen since Tirpitz was released. Braindead players gravitate towards extremely powerful stuff, and then potato them into oblivion, and Lyon WR is obviously suffering from that (seriously the kind of crap gameplay I've seen from Lyons defies comprehension). Give it 5-6 months and It'll be for sure much higher on that list once the novelty has gone and new popular toys are out there for potatoes to gravitate towards them instead.

At any rate WR is never a real measure of how OP/not OP a ship is (unless in some very blatant cases like Kaga) specially when it's of new introduction. That's specially true for premiums but also for silver ships. If you want to see a good instance, you just have to see KGV's position in the list and compare it with DoY (and objectivelly worse ship in almost everything except for having hydro).

what matters is that according to WoWS Stats, Lyon is the 3rd highest damage per game T7 BB (behind Nelson - which I already commented on, and KGV, which is also an OP ship), has  a 20+% advantage in damage done over Nagato, Gneisenau and Colorado, and has by far the highest K/D at 2.28  (next one in the list lags far behind being Nelson with 1.92, third also trails well behind at 1.82, KGV. the rest of silver ships are under 1.5 area, which is utterly awful). And again, those stats are taken at a time when that ship is the popular noob ship of the month. Once it stops being so, they'll only go up.


Point is, a ship like this (and KGV) should've been never released in their state. They're both OP as heck, they both are heads and shoulders far better than the other main trajectory ships, both are ridiculous, and both should receive the proper according treatment (nerfs) to bring them into line.

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23 hours ago, RAMJB said:

...Point is, a ship like this (and KGV) should've been never released in their state. They're both OP as heck, they both are heads and shoulders far better than the other main trajectory ships, both are ridiculous, and both should receive the proper according treatment (nerfs) to bring them into line.

Yes, the Lyon and the KGV have better win rates than the Indianapolis.

 

And we can't have a single silver ship with a better win rate than a single premium ship now, can we?

Them's the rules.

 

The Lyon having a worse win rate than 10 out of 11 tier VII premium ships makes it as OP as heck. It needs to be worse than 11 out of 11 premiums for game balance.

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And we can't have a single silver ship with a better win rate than a single premium ship now, can we?

Not when the rest of the silver ships are crap in comparison. Specially not when the ship is specially opressive and punishing to a class of ships (cruisers) which was already highly punished in the pre-french BB release meta, and now has to deal with a BS 27 knot 16 shell lobber that doesn't give a flying damn about WASD and evasion.

Also, and I insist, stats here don't tell the real story. Out of each 5 Lyons I see in play, 4 of them are absolute mindless potatoes who have drifted towards the noobfriendly ship of the moment and are actually dragging the results of the ship down. Once something else is released and that flock migrates to that one stats will only tell half the story. Or put in another words: right now the ship's stats don't reflect it's true powerlevel, which is utterly nuts and far beyond any premium that's not the kaga, Saipan or Belfast.

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