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loppantorkel

Rendering of ships

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I suspect the ships are slow to render on screen, making it tougher on 1 vs 1 engagements in dds. Are there differences and if so what factors into them? Is it possible to check if my suspicions are correct. I've got a good network, but the PC is quite old.

 

I know about concealment, smoke, the Target Acq. module, etc so, spare me those answers please. I also know about anticipating where the other ships is and aiming in, and I know about the 'detection' icon and icon on minimap popping up before the actual ship is rendered. It's none of those.

 

edit: to specify the question - I do not suspect artificial factors used to balance or such, just technical issues.

 The question to check if there are rendering differences is just because it's tough to know. It's just difficult to check such a thing. I'm not sure how it would be done easily.

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On 18.2.2018 at 11:04 AM, loppantorkel said:

Unsolved so far. @LilJumpa claimed he's seen an official answer, so your presumed silent treatment might be wrong. 

 

I'm not claiming there is a rendering issue. It just seems off at times and I wonder if there might be differences and if other people are experiencing it too.

I was looking around on reddit but actually only found some vague answers from WG officials that they are aware about the rendering delay.

 

 

The thing is that this rendering delay has a history in this game and is most likely added on purpose by Lesta.

 

The last official change was the fade in/ fade out mechanics which were added in 0.6.1

Quote
  • Now the ships and their accompanying effects like markers and shadows will "fade in" and "fade out" smoothly rather than appearing or disappearing instantly.

 

The history and speculation stuff:

 

- Lesta has been altering this delay since beta with various stages with 2 goals in mind

  • making the game playable on potato PCs without too great disadvantages
  • avoiding the blinking of ships, which was in the game at release in 2015

- In the last months, probably with the introduction/altering of detectability in smoke and or the upcoming weather effects/night battles they are fiddeling with this again and it has become very noticable as of late

- It is only losely  related to your hardware/internet connection and you will always expirience that delay since it is artificial

 

Update:

@loppantorkel

Jingles just posted a vid where this is mentioned:

Answer from the Devs at St. Petersburg (Lesta)

 

It is a technical issue with the server core and parts of this have to be overhauled to fix this.

 

 

7:30 of the vid

 

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Could you specify your question?  

What I understood:  

 

You suspect that the rendering delay is artificially used by WG as a balancing factor.

 

 

It is actually a technical issue. I recently read that this was acknowledged officially. Gotta look for the official source here and will bring it here.

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I like to think that hardware like a New PC and a top notch internet connection should not present an edge in online gaming but i suspect it has and that it prolly is countered by WG

 

Do you often see yourself amongst the first to start in a round?

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56 minutes ago, LilJumpa said:

Could you specify your question?  

What I understood:  

 

You suspect that the rendering delay is artificially used by WG as a balancing factor.

 

 

It is actually a technical issue. I recently read that this was acknowledged officially. Gotta look for the official source here and will bring it here.

Not sure why you would interpret it like that, but no it's not at all a suspicion of being used as a balancing factor. I wonder if it can be a technical issue connected to my PC most likely. It's not new. Could this be the case..? Not sure what else. It's when I meet the same type of ship, when I should have the upper hand moving in and I get 'detected' look where he is and only see him at the time he fires at me. Too many times the shots are off at me too early. It's in smoek and out in the open. Could be that dds have started taking Target acquisition mod, but I doubt it. More likely a technical issue somewhere, hence the question.

 

edit: thanks if you can find an answer.

27 minutes ago, Ulvesnutepostei said:

I like to think that hardware like a New PC and a top notch internet connection should not present an edge in online gaming but i suspect it has and that it prolly is countered by WG

 

Do you often see yourself amongst the first to start in a round?

Yea, I'm pretty early to start usually.

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55 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Yea, I'm pretty early to start usually.

Me too ... and I often spot just a tad before i get spotted myself the few times i encounter the same DD, without having an Scientific study at hand I have a feeling that I sink the enemy DD more often than I get sunk ... so opposite of Your suspition if I understand you correctly

 

But then again, just a feeling .... I have a fairly good Connection and a 2 year old gaming laptop

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There is no difference.

The delay is buildt in to make sure high end PC have no advantage vs low end PC.

Without a buildt in delay,  faster PC would render faster, giving an advantage.

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If you are talking about the rendering of a ship you spot, there is a 3 seconds delay between the moment the detected icon appears and the rendering of the ship.

 

WG necer really explained from where this delay comes. We are not sure if it's a limitation of the engine or a hard set rule decided by the devs.

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Heh... considering WoWs takes up ~34 GB and WoT only ~17 GB of memory you should haw come to that conclusion yourself. Those games are simmilar in concept, whilst WoWs runs on better graphics for a long time (WoT gets HD graphics soon, but that's not a selling point for everyone anyway). WG's put real elbow grease to make ships in WoWs as detailed, which adds aditional rendering and shading processes that doesnt necessarly add anything to competative play.

You could argue that bow wawes on high settings could alow you to judge your targets speed like black smoke from the funnel for speedboost.  And the stern tail waves to get a idea what maneuver the enemy ship is pulling.

The reality is, that most rely on RNG while aiming, because WG put dispersion into the mix, so without a clear indication by which you haw to put your lead on and pray for RNGesus for good shell spread your left with a shotgun at long range kind of playstyle. Which leads us to the heart o this "rendering" factor that is only hard pressed in close quarter combat. Due the way spotting works in 2 second intervals and is obstructed by islands and smoke a slower PC might lag behind 2-4 seconds to render. A shotgun is the most deadly at close ranges, so with the detonation fun thrown into the mix, this can be a deciding factor to win or loose a 1v1 encounter.

c2mXoAZ.gif

Even slower PC's can handle WoWs on low settings and you can make do without the information surface sea waves provide as wel as smoke and weather. That's just means more missed shots to judge targets speed, but all the other RNG is same for everybody.

For your consideration @loppantorkel

Spoiler

We haw a competition running from February 3rd till May 2nd and it would really be helpfull if you would choose and mark one post as the best answer.

 

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So here's an additional thing that kind of support there might be a slowdown in rendering. I'm dead and I'm following a teammate - he opens fire on an enemy ship before I'm able to see what he's shooting at. He's able to aim in and shoot before I see the enemy ship.

 

I'll try lowering the graphic settings to see if I notice a difference.

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19 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

I'm dead and I'm following a teammate - he opens fire on an enemy ship before I'm able to see what he's shooting at. He's able to aim in and shoot before I see the enemy ship.

 

 

Yep, there's definitely an issue here as I see this happening aswell. I am a slow loader even though the game is on an SSD and computer shouldn't be the slowest rig in the woods.

 

It's not confined to spectator mode when you're dead as I see division mates (who sail next to me) open fire well before the target renders in my screen.

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5 hours ago, Altsak said:

Yep, there's definitely an issue here as I see this happening aswell. I am a slow loader even though the game is on an SSD and computer shouldn't be the slowest rig in the woods.

 

It's not confined to spectator mode when you're dead as I see division mates (who sail next to me) open fire well before the target renders in my screen.

I've got an SSD too, but I guess WoWs is on a standard HD.. GPU is a Radeon 380 and Cpu AMD Phenom II, so, old but I doubt it's the worst around.

I tried low settings, but it was tough to play it that way.

 

:cap_hmm: so, it's a thing and we don't know what's causing the difference in rendering..?

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17 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

 so, it's a thing and we don't know what's causing the difference in rendering..?

Your GPU processes all the packets that get distributed by your CPU, which in itself has L2-L3 memory chaches and temproary fast acces memory storage - RAM. The SSD doesn't do anything other than store sequences of code that gets read and written on demand for long term storage. I mentioned the size the games take up as a gauge how much data has to be processed in comparison.

 

Your pc should handle the game on mormal settings just fine. Just write this delay of 2-4 seconds to bad programming (messy code sequences cheking memory banks multiple times etc) or just plain reaction time difeneces by the players themselves.

Or try playng the game on a ower-specked PC once

tenor.gif

And judge yourself if its the pc or is it you that capps out the skill level.

f96cdc54e69b2c408787864a687f8a88dcf92c2b

 

Btw: i didn't tangle the intenret speed aspect, because nowadays it's common to haw good bandwith in any household.  And it's more affordable than ever. I did howewer read of some cases of packet looses near WG servers hubbs. Changing providers is easy fix for that. tl:dr It's common practice to play on your regions dedicated servers any FPS and PING reliant games.

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9 hours ago, nimlock said:

Your GPU processes all the packets that get distipbuted by your CPU, which in itself has L2-L3 memory chaches and temproary fast acces memory storage - RAM. The SSD doesn't do anything other than store sequences of code that gets read and written on demand for long term storage. I mentioned the size the games take up as a gauge how much data has to be processed in comparison.

 

Your pc should handle the game on mormal settings just fine. Just write this delay of 2-4 seconds to bad programming (messy code sequences cheking memory banks multiple times etc) or just plain reaction time difeneces by the players themselves.

Or try playng the game on a ower-specked PC once

 

And juge yourself if its the pc or is it you that capps out the skill level.

 

Btw: i didn't tangle the intenret speed aspect, because nowadays it's common to haw good bandwith in any household.  And it's more affordable than ever. I did howewer read of some cases of packet looses near WG servers hubbs. Changing providers is easy fix for that. tl:dr It's common practice to play on your regions dedicated servers any FPS and PING reliant games.

Nice explanation and all, but it's still very speculative as for an answer. It might be time to buy a new PC, I don't have another one at hand to try. I think bandwidth is at 100Mb, so I doubt that's the issue. Capping out skill wise might very well be the case, but it doesn't explain why I see shots going off before the enemy ship renders. It's not much time that differs which makes it pretty tough to reproduce in Random games. This is why I ask. It seems that others are having the same experience. Maybe it's completely random, meaning I'm at advantage at times too, but only noticing the times I'm at disadvantage. It could be a technical issue - bad PC, or it could be something WG could improve in code. Still all speculation...

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48 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

 Still all speculation...

That's the best ansever anyone can give, given the information provided. WG will never publically admit if their product has programming flaws - you will get the silent treatment like from any other developer.

The other cases haw been stated and all is left is the human preception. 75 FPS is the optimal speed for most people eyes and brains to process visual images, anything over it is a grey zone. If your 16-18 years old, you might notice a slight difference each fraction of a second in fast paced games, but even that disappears as you grow older (professional gaming strains the body like any other form of sports).

 

TL:DR

DQmcTgmtLY4YiGCgyxj1WDhVm8aJKbvjbihi2Zj7

Any developers baill out card : We can't improve the player experience any further due technical dificulties server side. Please send money.

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1 hour ago, nimlock said:

That's the best ansever anyone can give, given the information provided. WG will never publically admit if their product has programming flaws - you will get the silent treatment like from any other developer.

The other cases haw been stated and all is left is the human preception. 75 FPS is the optimal speed for most people eyes and brains to process visual images, anything over it is a grey zone. If your 16-18 years old, you might notice a slight difference each fraction of a second in fast paced games, but even that disappears as you grow older (professional gaming strains the body like any other form of sports).

 

Any developers baill out card : We can't improve the player experience any further due technical dificulties server side. Please send money.

Unsolved so far. @LilJumpa claimed he's seen an official answer, so your presumed silent treatment might be wrong. 

 

I'm not claiming there is a rendering issue. It just seems off at times and I wonder if there might be differences and if other people are experiencing it too.

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1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

Unsolved so far. @LilJumpa claimed he's seen an official answer, so your presumed silent treatment might be wrong. 

 

I'm not claiming there is a rendering issue. It just seems off at times and I wonder if there might be differences and if other people are experiencing it too.

Servers are unstable all the time, because all haw a pricetag and maintenance cost on them. There are always unexpected downtimes and traffic spickes to consider. Like you mentioned, the rendering issue isn't as frequent to replicate for study and could be caused by many things.  Your probably one of the people believing what your told by outhority structures is true, because you can hold the statemens they tell as liability.  Fact is, you can't do anything on the server side to improve the player experience any further and haw to comply to WG's policy. That goes for any game.

 

giphy.gif

Three hooks with bait are enough for me.

Your not looking for constructive feedback diging in gray areas like these.

*I should probbably start getting point's in dishonest ways to.*

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1 hour ago, nimlock said:

 

Three hooks with bait are enough for me.

Your not looking for constructive feedback diging in gray areas like these.

*I should probbably start getting point's in dishonest ways to.*

Yea.. you probably shouldn't view this Q/A as a way to farm points for the competition. You've speculated quite a bit.. I could blame a delay for up to 4 s due to bad programming and or maybe it's because I'm not 16 years old anymore.. or maybe I could try change internet provider... Thanks for your contribution though.

 

I'm not looking for pure speculation. Firstly it would be interesting to see if anyone else has noticed the same thing. It seems at least one person has. Secondly, it would be interesting to see if someone has had this issue and resolved it (better PC, better cpu, or whatnot), thirdly it would be interesting to see if there is an official answer - is it reasonable to see up to one second delay in these kinds of games maybe? If so, then that's how it is. Or maybe it's on my end. Still very much only a suspicion based on experience and not hard facts.

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12 hours ago, LilJumpa said:

I was looking around on reddit but actually only found some vague answers from WG officials that they are aware about the rendering delay.

 

 

The thing is that this rendering delay has a history in this game and is most likely added on purpose by Lesta.

 

The last official change was the fade in/ fade out mechanics which were added in 0.6.1

 

The history and speculation stuff:

 

- Lesta has been altering this delay since beta with various stages with 2 goals in mind

  • making the game playable on potato PCs without too great disadvantages
  • avoiding the blinking of ships, which was in the game at release in 2015

- In the last months, probably with the introduction/altering of detectability in smoke and or the upcoming weather effects/night battles they are fiddeling with this again and it has become very noticable as of late

- It is only losely  related to your hardware/internet connection and you will always expirience that delay since it is artificial

 

Update:

@loppantorkel

Jingles just posted a vid where this is mentioned:

Answer from the Devs at St. Petersburg (Lesta)

 

It is a technical issue with the server core and parts of this have to be overhauled to fix this.

 

 

7:30 of the vid

 

Nice find. Good enough for me, thanks.

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22 hours ago, LilJumpa said:

vague answers from WG officials that they are aware about the rendering delay.

 

Jingles just posted a vid where this is mentioned:

Answer from the Devs at St. Petersburg (Lesta)

Still no official statement. An CCS (community contributor status) and partnership on Youtube for advetisement purposes has no merrit to base your facts on some chit-chat talk heard durning a coffe break somewhere.

No one regulates accountability and correctness of content presented like on the wiki itself. At least the wiki is managed by multiple people. A youtuber abusing some kind of monopoly to get his bias across is not a good source of facts to hold on to.

 

WG's position regarding CCS:

 

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4 minutes ago, nimlock said:

Still no official statement. An CCS (community contributor status) and partnership on Youtube for advetisement purposes has no merrit to base your facts on some chit-chat talk heard durning a coffe break somewhere.

No one regulates accountability and correctness of content presented like on the wiki itself. At least the wiki is managed by multiple people. A youtuber abusing some kind of monopoly to get his bias across is not a good source of facts to hold on to.

 

WG's position regarding CCS:

 

Why should he lie?

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17 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Why should he lie?

Why should i base my facts on someone haring something form somewhere? The scientific method does not apply, that's just the base of rumours. Jingles might haw heard something is wrong with WG, but that's old news :Smile_trollface:

I don't see him as a competent person, that's all. After all, all can create an account on youtube. Getting a CCS and partnership status is work that you put in to get some money out of your investment playing the submissive doggie.

Does he haw some kind of outhority? He literaly earns money from click bait and content appealing to the masses (and looking at statistics, not the brightest % of the world population)

 

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1 minute ago, nimlock said:

Why should i base my facts on someone haring something form somewhere? The scientific method does not apply, that's just the base of rumours. Jingles might haw heard something is wrong with WG, but that's old news :Smile_trollface:

I don't see him as a competent person, that's all. After all all can create an account on youtube. Getting a CCS status is work that you put in to get some money out of your investment playing the submissive doggie.

Does he haw some kind of outhority? He literaly earns money from click bait and content appealing to the masses (and looking at statistics, not the brightest % of the world population)

 

It is not a rumor if it comes from Lesta. And how much competence does it need to retell a written message?

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2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It is not a rumor if it comes from Lesta. And how much competence does it need to retell a written message?

Definetly not a place to discuss such a hard pressed matter. This rendering issue is crucial for game balance and should haw been allready covered by WG in an official manner.

 

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1 hour ago, nimlock said:

Definetly not a place to discuss such a hard pressed matter. This rendering issue is crucial for game balance and should haw been allready covered by WG in an official manner.

 

This is a discussion forum...

As long as it affects all players equally, I see no balance issue.

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9 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

This is a discussion forum...

As long as it affects all players equally, I see no balance issue.

Im famillar with the atempt to synchronize the data stream due unavoidable latency issues with the help of server bandwidth and programming. In the end it's a futile atempt nonetheless. So this statement is the shortest answer to the issue:

On 2018-02-15 at 10:04 PM, Commander_Cornflakes said:

Rendering is slow for everyone. Should be kind of fair ^^

Inherent latency issues are retalted to Ohm's law. No ammunt of tveaking will counter foundamental resistance pressent in the material we create our electronic gadgets from. And in captialism and the awkward distribution of wealth in the world even furnthens the inequality among individuals. So:

On 2018-02-15 at 10:35 PM, Ulvesnutepostei said:

I like to think that hardware like a New PC and a top notch internet connection should not present an edge in online gaming but i suspect it has and that it prolly is countered by WG

You can be certain your pc on a budget  might render something 1-2 second slower than for your oponent no matter the game you play. Not that it really matters in WoWs. The reaction time celling can be managed while drunk. I even see a trend going on: All WG games become bearable to play if you supplement it with vodka.

Spoiler

post.cgi?id=attach:70:8834:1078:1

So in conclusion:

Spoiler

People chose the most appealing "truth", not the uncomfortable and sad truth.

donald-trump-trademarked-a-ronald-reagan int-lii-an-inconvenient-truth-areassurin

 

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