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pomathoin

Why so much love for German BBs? What am I doing wrong?

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Ok so Nassau was good, but after that Kaiser and Konig were awful. I'm at Bayern now and thought it would be good for aggressive play leaning into caps but it just melts away to 50% hp before I even get close enough to start firing. I pick up citadel hits a lot more often than IJN BBs where I'm up to Amagi but it really seems like I can push caps better in the Amagi and that's a BC! Eating 3-5k AP damage every salvo even angled at 30°.

What am I doing wrong? I have for captains skills PM, EP, BFT and about to load AFT but I can't even get my secondaries into play yet. The rudder's too slow to dodge torps, the turrets feel slower than iron Duke when combined with the rudder speed, concealment vs range is shocking and it feels so slow to get anywhere useful.

I like the guns and the dispersion seems fine despite everyone else complaining about that.

I wanted a more tanky BB as people are constantly moaning that BBs don't do their job and soak up damage while pushing, (probably guilty with Amagi) but even when I state at match start I'm pushing X everyone else just peels off and leaves you solo as soon as the opposition appears and I can't escape like the IJN BBs. Turning away through the broadside is a joke. Can't keep turrets on target and what little hp was left is gone.

Most of the ships people hate on I've quite liked (Danae and Emerald are fun despite getting deleted easily) and ships people love I hated (I shudder at the thought of playing Konig again with 10% hit rate on mains). How people describe ships on the forums doesn't add up. Amagi is nowhere near as fragile as it's reputed and 26k damage per salvo on Yamato at 20km is not unusual. I played most of the IJN BBs with secondary builds to deal with DDs and aircraft so as not rely on teammates and thought this would suit the German line better

I'm a below average player I admit so shouldn't a tanky German BB suit me better than the more fragile RN and IJN BBs?

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[POI--]
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Amagi isn't fragile really. It has a ton of hp, turtleback and if angled, it's doing just fine, imo. The main thing I see with German BB, is that they are tanky mostly in the sense that they have excellent belt armour and turtleback, so they can expose some broadside and still get away. This means basically, if you make a mistake, you may survive it more than if you'd do the same in another BB. Turn around and show broadside in a Gneisenau will result in a few massive pens, while in Nagato you get citadelled back to port. And it's questionable how great BBs are that have as their main feature to be less punishing in situations you should not be in in the first place. As a trade-off, your main battery is likely the worst. Frankly, every other nation has better guns and German guns will give citadels, but usually, due to their inherent low accuracy, I'd rather expect them to just work over enemies with their lower reload (except Bayern, which suffers here), getting lots of normal pens and the occasional citadel.

 

Now, are German BBs bad? Eh, I'm on the fence. I'd say, in any serious environment, I'd take the IJN ship over the German one, except Nassau over Kawachi, FdG over Izumo or GK over Yamato (I'm not at T10 yet, so here I have no opinion). They are more solid performers. You aim, they hit, they punch hard, they are reliable. Germans meanwhile are more random and you just get used to doing damage over time with your RNG-heavy main battery, secondary hits and fires set by secondaries. While you try your best to minimise damage dealt to your ship. I wouldn't say they are really bad though. They still are BBs, they still can wreck cruisers, they still can win games. Their skill, in my opinion, just stems less from being able to aim and angle (both things you still should do in Germans, but which are of less consequence, because dispersion and the fact that either people are potato and bounce off your belt or they are good and farm your superstructure), but from adequately judging the capabilities of your ship and of the situation at hand. Fundamentally, German BBs allow you to get away with more things than others (and at T8+ with hydro they may allow to get away with entirely new things others would never do). Knowing which of these plays are just reckless waste of your hp and which are an actually valid trade is what is one of the main skills to learn. Especially at higher tiers, given up to T6, the Germans are just better armoured, more random boats, to be played at medium to short range, but from Gneisenau onwards, they become these well-armoured close range brawlers. Gneisenau can 1v1 even T9s (well, dumb T9s, but it is less hard to kill those than with any other T7 BB), if you know how, but if you overextent, it ties pretty damn fast, so you need to learn to pick your battles. Bismarck meanwhile is that secondary threat, where I often push up to caps to support the DD with my secondaries and main battery, because even if I do not directly kill that enemy DD, they know that basically another cruiser will open fire if they get spotted. It's then about presence, more than the actual damage you do. That you are there, that you are a BB, that you have a silly HE spam within 11 km and a main battery that every 26 seconds rolls the dice whether it deletes your inferior ship or not. And vs battleships, most others load AP and even if they might deal a few k from superstructure hits, you basically try to engage them at short range, put them on fire, try to get them to show broadside and just outlast them.

 

But yeah, in the end, I wouldn't say they are great ships for skilled gameplay. There are many situations in Gneisenau where I wished I was in Nagato, or in Bayern, where I wished I was in Fuso. Few where I wished for it to be the other way around. But they can be fun ships, which is what we play them for.

 

Also, I recommend to keep playing IJN or USN on the side, because KM BBs can teach bad habits and playing others keeps you on the ball in regards to aiming, angling and judging what is sensible and what is reckless.

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Supertester, Players, Sailing Hamster
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why do most people like German BB's?

 

Because they can turn broadside and mostly get away with it, while having rapid fire secondaries with 1/4 HE pen that reach out to above average range, and good enough main battery.

 

In short: it's much more stupidproof than other lines.

 

Also, most people get a hardon by the sheer mention of the name of Bismarck and Tirpitz, even though they have the grand total of one kill between them.

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[PARAZ]
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KM BBs are more tanky than any other line. If you're eating pens in a KM BB, you would eat pens with any other line as well.

It should also be noted that in general low-mid tier BBs do not possess sufficient bow/stern armor to protect against overmatch.

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I've played a few more games and the thing I'm struggling with the most is manoeuvrability. It doesn't play well at range so I close the distance only to be out manoeuvred close quarters. Hopefully the hull upgrade will feel a lot better with 11.1 rudder shift and I can start to brawl. FCS seems pointless so hull B then propulsion and we'll see.

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Best part of German BB’s is that you will not get catastrophic damage..aka you can turn and show braodside and suffer some pain but you will be in play and reposition yourself and still live.

 

But the benefit of the sturdy armored belt is suffering from its own succes. Good players will no longer aim at the belt but at the upper works were they will do massive dmg...Any BB can hurt Bismarcks for 15-20 K dmg by aiming above the belt.  

 

 

 

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Have been experimenting with captain skills while it's free to redistribute and had moderately more success when I equipped concealment and survivability perks to get me closer and keep me alive longer. Went back to PM, EM, SI and AFT though for now. This ship feels like lots of perks can make a difference but you have to focus them to be really effective. It's very jack of all trades but the dispersion forces you in closer. Also got the hull B and engine upgrade which made a good difference. 25kts feels like the minimum speed I can handle in a BB. More of a BC player I guess. That and 11.1 rudder shift and I feel like I can finally insert myself where I want to be and swing about effectively. Had a few 40-60k damage games and finished with a 99k. I had a couple of good 1v1s bows on and managed to turn across their bows to get onto their blind side. The turtle armour really helps with that as you don't have to worry about the citadel taking hits from their bow turrets as you turn across them. It would be nice if WG could include stats for °/sec turn rate for each ship. For example Kongo at 30kts and 770m turning circle actually 180s faster than New York at 21kts and 600m even though it'll be 85m further away. A tight turning circle isn't everything if your slow as balls getting around it, and it makes a big difference brawling.

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Alpha Tester, Players, In AlfaTesters
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The fun starts with Bismarck/Tirpitz.

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The German battleships are really good at brawling. They're reasonably agile in all accounts, and they take the punishment better at close range compared to other ships. The good secondaries help out quite a bit (it's not that rare to get burninator achievements), and the closer ranges of brawling means the substandard gun accuracy is less of an issue.

 

If you feel you can't run away like in other ships (which will not be an issue T7-T8), plan ahead further. Keep track on the minimap to see when your supposed allies peel off. Always, in any ship and in any situation, have an exit strategy. Know how you can extract yourself from the situation you put yourself in before you put yourself into that position.

 

It's more fun to build for secondaries (especially Bismarck, which has tier for tier the best secondaries in the game), but it's not the most efficient (secondary guns are called "secondary" for a reason). That also requires a certain playstyle. If you want to optimise, they do really well with an overall survival build with some additional secondary enhancements. Also remember that speccing for secondaries means your AA will come up to decent to good levels.

 

10 hours ago, pomathoin said:

A tight turning circle isn't everything if your slow as balls getting around it, and it makes a big difference brawling.

Yeah, tighter turning mostly means you can avoid islands later without slowing down, and how fast you can dodge torpedoes. The effective course change also depends on speed and rudder shift time. You can also slow down to decrease your turning circle, which is less viable in already slow ships. Tighter turning does help, but I've never found it to be a game changer in battleships. It can get annoying in some other ships, like Japanese destroyers or Russian cruisers

 

In overall agility, Kongo is one of the best battleships in the game. You can take most fights at your convenience, and you're especially good at close cruiser support. The great range is good for temporary retreats when you need to heal up a bit (but if you stay at long range, please pick a Russian cruiser instead).

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[UNICS]
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im still trying to get the hang of the Bismarck... but overall i think they have good armor vs AP and HE, but instead gets a large superstructure that  will get saturated later on . so you take less damage overall.

 

That is why i think they are valid with a survivability (CE, FP, High Alert)  build as @AnotherDuck suggested. 

 

 

Secondaries are just not that useful ..

 

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KM BBs are not what they used to be. They are still good, but in current meta the deep water torps + ridiculous HE spam will melt any BB that comes too close. And KM BBs do not perform well at anything but close range. Timing your hydro in the upper tiers is crucial at the moment.

 

The lower tiers are are really boring and sometimes annoying to play. Bayern combines a very awkward mix of overmatching and low penetration guns. It is most visible when you hit other BBs of tier 5-7 - you either overmatch and do huge damage, or you get bounces/shatters due to the inexplicably low pen values. That is if you hit anything at all (this trend is consistent across all KM BBs). Gneis is a serious downgrade in terms of main battery but is really fast and has torps. Also it has great AA. Bismarck is quite good at brawling and has hydro. FdG is a bigger Bismarck and GK is FdG with more guns and different (better) secondaries. From tier 7 and above the secondaries work really well. T8 and above, they get the legendary secondary range as well.

 

Something to note with KM BBs - they have turtleback armor which is a double-edged sword. They are generally easier to pen and have poor torpedo protection, but they are really hard to citadel. You will take more damage when angled compared to USN or IJN BB of a similar tier, but you will not get citadelled to sh!t if you show broadside when trying to retreat for example. Overall I find KM BBs easier to manage as they take more consistent damage over time and you can typically make more use of your heals. This comes with practice of course. 

 

For GK I would like to note that for me it performs best as a multitasker. It has very bad angles for the rear two turrets, so it is best to fire the front guns at one ship and the rear ones at another instead of showing flat broadside to fire all four turrets at a single target. Also this way you can target up to 3 separate targets (front guns, back guns and secondaries) with ease.

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:12 PM, pomathoin said:

Ok so Nassau was good, but after that Kaiser and Konig were awful. I'm at Bayern now and thought it would be good for aggressive play leaning into caps but it just melts away to 50% hp before I even get close enough to start firing. I pick up citadel hits a lot more often than IJN BBs where I'm up to Amagi but it really seems like I can push caps better in the Amagi and that's a BC! Eating 3-5k AP damage every salvo even angled at 30°.

What am I doing wrong? I have for captains skills PM, EP, BFT and about to load AFT but I can't even get my secondaries into play yet. The rudder's too slow to dodge torps, the turrets feel slower than iron Duke when combined with the rudder speed, concealment vs range is shocking and it feels so slow to get anywhere useful.

I like the guns and the dispersion seems fine despite everyone else complaining about that.

I wanted a more tanky BB as people are constantly moaning that BBs don't do their job and soak up damage while pushing, (probably guilty with Amagi) but even when I state at match start I'm pushing X everyone else just peels off and leaves you solo as soon as the opposition appears and I can't escape like the IJN BBs. Turning away through the broadside is a joke. Can't keep turrets on target and what little hp was left is gone.

Most of the ships people hate on I've quite liked (Danae and Emerald are fun despite getting deleted easily) and ships people love I hated (I shudder at the thought of playing Konig again with 10% hit rate on mains). How people describe ships on the forums doesn't add up. Amagi is nowhere near as fragile as it's reputed and 26k damage per salvo on Yamato at 20km is not unusual. I played most of the IJN BBs with secondary builds to deal with DDs and aircraft so as not rely on teammates and thought this would suit the German line better

I'm a below average player I admit so shouldn't a tanky German BB suit me better than the more fragile RN and IJN BBs?

Just a little comparison (for example tier8 mainstreams / favorites) in battles played on EU server:

 

BBabies:

Bismarck / Tirpitz 18 million!!!

North Carolina 6m

Amagi 4.5m

 

CVs:

Shokaku 1m

Lexington 1m

 

CAs:

Kutuzov 3m

Hipper 4m

Edinburgh 2m

New Orelans 3m

Atago 4m

 

DDs:

Kagero 2m

Akizuki 0.5m

Benson 3.5m

 

If you play a little bit with these stats you can actually see that the most "stupdiproof" ships are played the most.

 

Just see that there are more battles played in Bismarck/Tirpitz than in ALL of the listed CAs (5) together!!!!

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I'm not that far in KM BBs though. Still at Bayern, Queen Elizabeth, Amagi and New Mexico. I only started playing the German BBs because I thought they were supposed to be more tanky and good for pushing caps from the front. I feel like I need support in this ship more than any other. It's true that they work better at the front, because they can't hit Jack from the back, and when you do get 3/8 shells on target the AP doesn't penetrate at range. Bayern doesn't take cit hits but it just doesn't seem to bounce ANY AP shells from ANY direction and melts under HE fires. In comparison I'm also playing QE and find it takes big damage and eats cits if you're angled poorly, and burns the same but you can pull back more HP with repair party and has decent barrel accuracy at any range. QE feels like it punishes poor decisions but rewards good ones. Support for the first half of the match accumulating damage then pick your moment to exploit a weakness and push up. Bayern gets punished whatever I do. From the back I'm ineffective early match. Up front I'm manoeuvrable vs torps but take a ton of damage I can't recover after an encounter and just don't seem to have enough damage output in return. Reload is 30s which is a bit unfair given the guns dispersion. If she had the 26s reload it might balance out a little better. I've researched Gneisenau now but am putting my money into RN BB and CL lines as I find them much more rewarding. Still playing a few games in Bayern if my other ship is down but just can't find a playstyle that works with it.

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As I mentioned, KM BBs tend to take damage at more average rate - no insta-deaths but at the cost of getting damaged by normal AP pens more often. They have huge superstructure and thin upper belt which causes them to get penned with ease and take more HE damage. Micromanagement is key. You need to recognize when you should be pushing, where to do that (in order to minimize the amount of guns firing back at you) and when to hide like a pu$$y behind an island while waiting for your heals. This comes with practice.

 

If you want BBs that are good at bow-tanking and are generally a lot tougher when angled properly, you might continue with IJN/USN. RN BBs at higher tiers have nothing to do with QE, which you seem to like. They play more like super-heavy cruisers - they are fast, do lots of damage for short periods of time but are really vulnerable. RN battleships tend to take loads of AP and torp damage, which can greatly reduce the efficiency of the "zombie heal" at T9/10. While they do not get citadelled easily, they will quite often take 15-25k damage in one salvo from another BB, even when angled and have next to 0 torpedo protection. KM battleships at high tiers also have poor torpedo protection and have the worst maneuverability of all BBs, but they have hydro.

Don't get me wrong - RN BBs are extremely powerful, it's just not because of their toughness. It has a lot more to do with their stealth, agility and ridiculously OP HE shells. I've managed to hit a bow tanking Yamato for over 20K while setting three fires on him with a single salvo in my Conqueror. In total I did over 50K damage to him with a single salvo as he did not have damage-con ready.

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The benefit of not taking citadel hits is that you can use your heals to a greater extent. But that also requires surviving long enough to use them all. You can also still angle, but it doesn't mean bowtanking everything. It means you show a broadside for people to think they can shoot your side, and then you angle in to bounce a lot of it. Exactly what angle is best is a little different for each ship, but it should come if you practice.

 

When to push and when to pull back is extremely important if you play a front-line battleship. Always have an exit strategy, and make sure you have friends with you when you push. Communicate, and follow your DDs. That's usually the best method that works for me. I find that people are generally more inclined to follow and support the German BBs in pushing since they are known for their tankiness and good pushing potential. Just know your limits.

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