Why Aircraft Carriers feel unbalanced

[Th3Fl0]

To all of you out there, 

 

Let me start by making it clear that I do not want to remove CV's. In my opinion CV's are an essential part of this game and should never be removed as such. I do suggest a change in the operational mechanics of CV's.

 

Although I do have an opinion on how planes behave in game, such as "the little effect of AA on drop pattern of bombers, unless defensive AA is used" or the "near 90 dgr turns for (torp)bomber squads", this is not what I wanted to put up for debate here. Much more important issues with CV's start with the players themselves.

 

In every ship class players are able to initiate some actions manually. Priority firing of secondary guns, - or AA guns on a single target for example. The effect of those actions "tweak" the ships performance in a way that might give you an edge in combat, in combination with your captain (level and skill set). The effect of this "tweaking" is - in my opinion - fairly limited on the overall course of the battle. There is one exception. No other ship class has such a big impact on the gameplay like the CV does, especially higher up the tiers. Skills such as strafing and dropping bombs/torps manually are essential if you wish to succeed. The effect if you know how to use these to your advantage can pay off for your team. The performance of planes that are operated automatically by a player is terrible. It is basically impossible to kill DD's, even BB's have a good chance of dodging and fighters are also not as effective compared to strafing. 

 

Every player is able to use the same manual options to use a CV. They are equal for everyone. This brings me to the core of the problem with - mainly - CV's. The performance CV's in battle are relying heavily on the basic skills of the player. With good CV players on both teams, this is not really a big issue. When there is a good CV player is facing a unicum CV player, it might be tough, but at least you have a chance as a team. When a "lesser gifted" player is operating a CV versus a good or unicum player, usually the outcome of the battle is already set. You will lose. Maybe not always directly due to the CV's actions, but indirectly because a more skilled CV in general know what to do. Spot ships, deal damage on - or kill dangerous players/ships. I believe a game is lost 9/10 times that way.

 

The impact that a CV has on a battle is too great when personal skills are too far apart. Far more impact than any other ship class. For me, this really ruins any fun I experience from this game with a CV present. Regardless on which side the "lesser gifted" CV player is on. With an increase of games that has a CV present, I believe that this is why "actions" should be taken. This brings me to what needs to change. Instinctively, I would say, remove that what creates such a great difference between players. Remove all the manually operated features for every CV player. Having that said, I also believe that is not the right solution for the problem. Why do players who are able to use CV's have to suffer for those who can't use a CV to its abilities? That makes no sense and feels highly unfair. On the other hand, having a "lesser gifted" CV player in your battle also feels as if RNGsus takes a dump on your head.

 

Lately, I see RNGsus taking a dump "a bit" too often. That is why I started this thread, to start a discussion on how Aircraft Carriers can keep their role in mainly random battles. Maybe a min XP threshold for T8 and up CV's to enter random battles (and only be able to play Coop battles if you don't reach this min xp threshold)? Or maybe something else? I'm curious for your responses and possible solutions! 

[Commander_Cornflakes]

Vor 10 Minuten, Th3Fl0 sagte:

Instinctively, I would say, remove that what creates such a great difference between players. Remove all the manually operated features for every CV player. Having that said, I also believe that is not the right solution for the problem. Why do players who are able to use CV's have to suffer for those who can't use a CV to its abilities? That makes no sense and feels highly unfair. On the other hand, having a "lesser gifted" CV player in your battle also feels as if RNGsus takes a dump on your head.

That would make CVs incerdibly boring to play, just stupidly clicking on ships/planes.

The better players would still find ways to overpower weaker players and not much would change.

 

You can't nerf skill, you have to buff the rest. And in this case, I mean an indirect buff by making obligatory tutorials for CV players when they reach Tier 6 where they are told about manual drops and have to use them for a short Coop Mission (or something similar). And of course make every already existing CV player do this tutorial as well.

 

Lastly, to avoid this problem: Take your own CV player in a division and never have autodropping CVs again

[El2aZeR]

26 minutes ago, Th3Fl0 said:

Instinctively, I would say, remove that what creates such a great difference between players. Remove all the manually operated features for every CV player.

 

You know you can also do it the other way around?

Just remove auto drop.

 

There is literally no reason for auto drop to exist other than to trap new players into bad habits.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

And post number 1088r9e9w88w where some random player did not get that your defence against other cv is not your cv. 

 

When they realize that we can talk. Unroll no point to read long posts from crew that has no idea about this game. 

[159Hunter]

47 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

You know you can also do it the other way around?

Just remove auto drop.

 

There is literally no reason for auto drop to exist other than to trap new players into bad habits.

Honestly, I'm more in favour of this solution.

Force people to use manual controls. By forcing this they're bound to learn a thing or two about them when playing them.

 

Removing the manual drops is another way to dumb down the game even more. Not what is needed tbh

[PzAbteilung]

CVs feel unbañanced cos there are 2 types of ships:

-nearly inmune to air attacks (when u play cv will see how your planes are melted)

-very vulnrable to air attacks 

 

A good step in balancing could be nerf all big caliber AA , and buff the small caliber ones

[Migulaitor]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

There is literally no reason for auto drop to exist other than to trap new players into bad habits.

Sending your planes to attack a BB 1 second before diying, enjoy your posthumous salt 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

23 minutes ago, PzAbteilung said:

CVs feel unbañanced cos there are 2 types of ships:

-nearly inmune to air attacks (when u play cv will see how your planes are melted)

-very vulnrable to air attacks 

 

A good step in balancing could be nerf all big caliber AA , and buff the small caliber ones

If type 2 (bad aaa) is 5 km from type 1 (imba aaa) what do you think, will type 2 ship get rekt by cv?

[El2aZeR]

44 minutes ago, PzAbteilung said:

A good step in balancing could be nerf all big caliber AA , and buff the small caliber ones

 

That'd be a hilarious buff to CVs as small caliber AA is easily demolished by HE shells and bombs.

 

What is needed is to prevent these lows and highs entirely. For the most part these exist due to a vast array of upgrades and captain skills. If you want powerful AA it is mandatory to pick these, eliminating any other choice you might otherwise have. The payoffs however are tremendous if you do happen to meet a CV in battle, even ships with normally bad AA are capable of utterly murdering entire strikes with a full AA spec. And ofc those ships that have good base AA already become absolutely hilarious when specialized for it.

 

Then there is the problem of AA progression. At T4-5 AA is basically non-existent. T6-8 has a few ships that can do well without thorough specialization but are few in number. At T9+ everything barring some DDs has good to hilarious AA, but the effects are mitigated by CVs also spiking tremendously in power. There are even some lines that actually get worse when they move up a tier (Cleve to Pensa is an infamous example, even if it's being fixed soon). To say that this makes absolutely no sense at all is an understatement.

 

Furthermore you have an issue with consistency. That AA mounts can be destroyed is a good thing and is one of the reasons as to why I don't think it's a problem that some ships have really good AA initially. It makes CVs dependent on their team just like any other class. But with the introduction of RN BBs with their thermonuclear HE shells, being capable of stripping ships of their entire low and mid range AA suite with only 2-4 hits, this needs rethinking.

 

Thus to address these issues one needs to take the following steps:

- remove or mitigate the impact of all AA skills/upgrades, then balance primarily around base values

- smooth out AA progression

- either buff AA mount survivability, reduce the splash damage to AA mounts by HE shells (particularly RN BB ones) or make "destroyed" AA mounts still emit a small amount of their DPS (say 40% or so)

 

Please note that this only concerns AA, there are plenty more things wrong with CVs and their relationship with surface vessels.

[xxNihilanxx]

In my opinion CVs represent a real oddball situation in WoWS.

 

If both CV captains are bad then the CVs have little to no influence on the outcome of the game.

If both CV players are good then the CVs have little to no influence on the outcome of the game.

If one CV player is good and the other bad then the outcome of the game is, in all but the most extreme of cases, a foregone conclusion. All that the 11 players in the same team as the bad CV player can do is hope to farm as much XP as possible before the inevitable loss.

In essence, the presence of CVs in a match turn a 12v12 into a 1v1. I think all can agree that this is not ideal.

 

Anyone who plays DDs at all will know that awful sinking feeling when, at the start of the match, enemy planes appear over each of the cap points while the friendly planes do lazy circles around the green carrier as the player marshalls his air force ready to send the whole blob round the edge of the map. At that moment you know that the only chance your team has of winning is if the rest of your team are unicums and the rest of the enemy team are 40% WR players.  Unfortunately the stars do not align favourably thus in any but the rarest of occasions.

 

Many times in this forum people have offered advice on how to deal with CVs - stick together and stack AA but, unfortunately, this does not really work for DDs. They cannot cap points that are being perma-scouted by enemy planes and sticking with the larger ships means the team gets outcapped and loses on points. Yes you can avoid being damaged by CVs in this way but this does not help in any way to secure the win. If friendly ships were willing to push into the cap with you you might stand a chance but meanwhile, back on planet Earth....

 

I have read many threads where people propose nerfs to CVs and most of these proposed nerfs are suggested out of spite and lead to CVs being, at best, boring and, at worst, unplayable. That notwithstanding I have been thinking about this at length lately and I have had an idea that I would like to run past people.

 

As most of the good CV players will probably tell you it is not the ability to delete BBs at will that determines the outcome of the match but rather it is the ability to wipe out or entirely negate the enemy DDs that wins the battle so... What if CVs were given DW torps only to prevent them cross-dropping DDs whilst at the same time DD detectability by air was uniformly dropped to being the same as their assured detection range - 2km. Then buff all DD short-range AA sufficiently to prevent CVs keeping them permaspotted for free. I am not talking devastating AA like some of the higher tier DDs but just enough that the CV will lose a plane every 15-20 secs or so. This way DDs can still have a hope of performing their role without entirely neutering CVs as a class. This would, hopefully, go some way towards mitigating the whole 1v1 scenario that the presence of CVs introduces.

 

Thoughts...?

 

 

 

 

[Commander_Cornflakes]

Vor 6 Minuten, xxNihilanxx sagte:

What if CVs were given DW torps only to prevent them cross-dropping DDs whilst at the same time DD detectability by air was uniformly dropped to being the same as their assured detection range - 2km. Then buff all DD short-range AA sufficiently to prevent CVs keeping them permaspotted for free. I am not talking devastating AA like some of the higher tier DDs but just enough that the CV will lose a plane every 15-20 secs or so. This way DDs can still have a hope of performing their role without entirely neutering CVs as a class. This would, hopefully, go some way towards mitigating the whole 1v1 scenario that the presence of CVs introduces.

 

Thoughts...?

Have fun with DDs going around the map to hunt CVs because they are now invincible to planes.

This will happen a lot which

• makes CVs easy victims for DDs
• destroys the game in another way because these DDs won't cap nor spot

[El2aZeR]

27 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

Many times in this forum people have offered advice on how to deal with CVs - stick together and stack AA but, unfortunately, this does not really work for DDs. They cannot cap points that are being perma-scouted by enemy planes and sticking with the larger ships means the team gets outcapped and loses on points. Yes you can avoid being damaged by CVs in this way but this does not help in any way to secure the win. If friendly ships were willing to push into the cap with you you might stand a chance but meanwhile, back on planet Earth.

 

Used to be different. You were able to smoke in your teammates close to cap, encouraging them to move up, provide AA cover and fire support while you take a cap. Your role as a DD was not only providing vision but also to deny it. Literally nothing a CV could do about that.

 

But ofc WG in their infinite wisdom has chosen to almost entirely eliminate such counterplay.

[Wildf1re]

48 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

*snip* ... What if CVs were given DW torps only to prevent them cross-dropping DDs whilst at the same time DD detectability by air was uniformly dropped to being the same as their assured detection range - 2km. Then buff all DD short-range AA sufficiently to prevent CVs keeping them permaspotted for free. I am not talking devastating AA like some of the higher tier DDs but just enough that the CV will lose a plane every 15-20 secs or so. This way DDs can still have a hope of performing their role without entirely neutering CVs as a class. This would, hopefully, go some way towards mitigating the whole 1v1 scenario that the presence of CVs introduces.

 

Thoughts...?

 

 

 

 

I like this, but then again I prefer DDs so I am biased that way. Then again I also play CV's and enjoy that - and could see it work. Just one issue - would be H... to chase DDs then....

[Th3Fl0]

2 hours ago, 15JG52Adler said:

And post number 1088r9e9w88w where some random player did not get that your defence against other cv is not your cv. 

 

When they realize that we can talk. Unroll no point to read long posts from crew that has no idea about this game. 

Hello hater! How nice of you not to read what I wrote and only assume that it is a cry to remove CVs or such. I'm not feeling butt hurt because a random CV didn't cover me. I'm trying to initiate a discussion about CV's in relation to the people that use them. Read my post, and try to contribute in a positive way, like many already did before you. Otherwise, just be quiet. Thank you.

[Th3Fl0]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

You know you can also do it the other way around?

Just remove auto drop.

 

There is literally no reason for auto drop to exist other than to trap new players into bad habits.

Good suggestion. Just to be clear (again), I don't claim to have the final and only solution for what I consider a big issue. I want people to think together and share their thoughts. Thanks for your contribution!

[aboomination]

CV are broken, AA is broken - if anyone can come up with really clever ideas: WG will be hiring you on the spot.

[Th3Fl0]

1 hour ago, xxNihilanxx said:

In my opinion CVs represent a real oddball situation in WoWS.

-

Thoughts...?

 

 

Excellent contribution! Thank you!

[OVanBruce]

How many times have this same thread been done already? I'm kinda tired of explaining again and again what is happening t CVs. Furthermore, current GZ test seems to be the last (?) so the expertise showed in the ideas put into GZ make me quite depressed about the future carrier rework.

[Th3Fl0]

3 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

That would make CVs incerdibly boring to play, just stupidly clicking on ships/planes.

The better players would still find ways to overpower weaker players and not much would change.

 

You can't nerf skill, you have to buff the rest. And in this case, I mean an indirect buff by making obligatory tutorials for CV players when they reach Tier 6 where they are told about manual drops and have to use them for a short Coop Mission (or something similar). And of course make every already existing CV player do this tutorial as well.

 

Lastly, to avoid this problem: Take your own CV player in a division and never have autodropping CVs again

I agree that taking away all the manual abilities on a CV would make the ship pretty boring to play. It was only a suggestion to get a discussion going. I'm unaware if you play CV's or not, but I do know that both of us are fortunate enough to have many clanmembers who play CV's very well. Unfortunately, not everyone is blessed with these players, and it is not an option to have them play CV's all the time. Than there is the thing that this goes for people who are in top clan mostly. I raised this post for the purpose of all the players who don't have access to that kind of support on a regular basis. The topic is biased on default, since it is never written from the perspective of a CV player. 

 

Your suggestions for a mandatory/obligatory tutorial I find appealing. Thanks!

[Th3Fl0]

2 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

How many times have this same thread been done already? I'm kinda tired of explaining again and again what is happening t CVs. Furthermore, current GZ test seems to be the last (?) so the expertise showed in the ideas put into GZ make me quite depressed about the future carrier rework.

I think you are mistaken. This thread is not ment to discuss the mechanics of the CV itself. It ment to discuss the relation between how players perform in CV's and the negative impact that a bad CV player has on a battle. 

[Commander_Cornflakes]

Vor 27 Minuten, Th3Fl0 sagte:

I'm unaware if you play CV's or not, but I do know that both of us are fortunate enough to have many clanmembers who play CV's very well. Unfortunately, not everyone is blessed with these players, and it is not an option to have them play CV's all the time.

Main CV player here and that last line was meant as a joke of course ^^

[Deckeru_Maiku]

I don't play CV much or often, but here's my thought:

 

1. give all CVs the ability (back) to drop manual, so players have the chance to learn that at lower tiers
2. remove strafing, as that ability is buggy as hell imho and the skill ceiling is way too high
3. reduce AA on BBs a bit - mostly range. They should need cruisers to keep them safe
4. reduce DD air spotability a bit

But all of that will not help much. CV potatoes will stay potatoes and Unicorns will stay Unicorns... I don't think anything can be done to change that.

[Th3Fl0]

1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

I don't play CV much or often, but here's my thought:

 

1. give all CVs the ability (back) to drop manual, so players have the chance to learn that at lower tiers
2. remove strafing, as that ability is buggy as hell imho and the skill ceiling is way too high
3. reduce AA on BBs a bit - mostly range. They should need cruisers to keep them safe
4. reduce DD air spotability a bit

But all of that will not help much. CV potatoes will stay potatoes and Unicorns will stay Unicorns... I don't think anything can be done to change that.

Unicums will be unicums, I agree with you on that. They are unicum for a reason. I don't see so much the problem with them. They form a minority that "over perform" in their ship. The problem I would define is within the majority. I'm talking about the gap with the size of the Grand Canyon when it comes to Good vs Bad/Average CV players. The question remains, how can we help these players improve in a way that it becomes more acceptable and prevent them screwing up within random battles?

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

remove strafing, as that ability is buggy as hell imho and the skill ceiling is way too high

 

Problem with trying to remove strafing is that fighters would once again become worthless against massed strikes as they were in CBT.

That ofc can also be remedied by introducing some new mechanic or tweaking the existing click fights, but imo strafing is a fairly reasonable solution to that issue.

 

Not sure why you think it's buggy. Personally I've never experienced bugs with the mechanic in itself, only with the UI trying to use or display it.

[aboomination]

2 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

1. give all CVs the ability (back) to drop manual, so players have the chance to learn that at lower tiers

 

Yeah, new players and tons of seal clubbers