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dasCKD

Battleship Plague 1 - the Inevitability

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Nicely written and thought provoking. Also agree with most of it. I play almost exclusively cruisers and have settled at Tier 7 for exactly the reasons you state. My favoured ship is the Fiji, which is simply fun to play. The Edinburgh, despite the better heal, seems slower, and far more vulnerable. And hence less fun - so I don't play it. Neptune was wrecked with the smoke changes and the citadel and I am not good enough to play the Minotaur, even though it is quite amusing!

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At higher tiers the only thing that seems to combine well is some cruisers, at low and mid tier I enjoy everything (not CVs)up to c:a T7-8 ships

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Nice effort, but you tend to some oversimplifications here. A bb won't always damage an enemy with a hit, angling is a thing. In opposite to that have fun angling against zao HE. Had several 9k salvos, plus fires and what not. 

 

I think we need raised citadels so bbs can feed on themselves better, better ijn torp concealment and some more love for carriers and things would be fine. 

 

Would be interesting to test cruisers and bbs, commanded by equal skill level players against another 1v1. I'm quite certain it would be a coin toss at most tiers. 

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Great analysis but i think it boils down to the uninitiated seeing historical BB snipe at long range for hours. They then think this applies to the game...

 

In their little minds, the odd glancing hit or very rare 1 shot is good. 

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58 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

I think we need raised citadels so bbs can feed on themselves better, better ijn torp concealment and some more love for carriers and things would be fine. 

 Yes, this in the long shot was the turning point, started at the reliece of KM BB, that had a well protected citadel at certain ranges, then they lowered US BB citadel, and i think they never gave RN BB any at all.

IJN were left behind on this, and at most part they stay the heck away the most because they have the citadel in plain view. No idea whats gonna happen to French ones, but the tier 5 has a citadel that can be shot at from any angles by same tier BB, the dispersion doesnt alow any camping, so will be interesting to see where it will lead to.

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5 minutes ago, Azalgor said:

 Yes, this in the long shot was the turning point, started at the reliece of KM BB, that had a well protected citadel at certain ranges, then they lowered US BB citadel, and i think they never gave RN BB any at all.

IJN were left behind on this, and at most part they stay the heck away the most because they have the citadel in plain view. No idea whats gonna happen to French ones, but the tier 5 has a citadel that can be shot at from any angles by same tier BB, the dispersion doesnt alow any camping, so will be interesting to see where it will lead to.

I got a citadel vs a Gnesi in the T5 FR BB although the potato was broadside and firing HE at me... So probably doesn't prove much!!

 

I feel bad for the IJN. Poor Kongo has been well and truly power creeped out by GC. Nagato is meh vs the new breed of BB, only Amagi stays relevant. Yam is OK I guess but Conq does a similar job without needing to be able to aim.

 

Every BB should have raised citadels otherwise what's the point? As no one is really punished for broadside brain dead sailing. If you're caught broadside you deserve to get one shotted, you're less likely to repeat that mistake than if you only take 10k superstructure damage.

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59 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

Every BB should have raised citadels otherwise what's the point?

 Im sure you know about it, but still, a WG made up term  ''gimik'' (or how its spelled), WG made few of them and now, since they ran out of ideas they just shuffle them up and add as gimik to a new nation, RN got the most of it, and as far as the community goes, they expect the next line to be better, does the speed boost make up for it as such? Doubt it, so im guessing that the historical trait of having quad turrets doesnt count as well. Sounds stupid, but thats how it goes.

 And you are right, and as i also mentioned, the oldest nation in the game, the IJN, were left out and are in need of some buffs, and raising the citadel on other BB would be a good start, turret traverce speed would be welcome for cruisers.

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WOW! Willy Wanka, the official knight-defender of Battleships and the current meta will burn your house to the ground and eat your kittens when he sees this.

 

Any way, this has been apparent even a year ago and WG did nothing, they are still not doing anything. Sure, they may make a comment here and there about the oversaturation of BBs, but meanwhile they continue to nerf everything else and indirectly buff BBs.  

 

I believe this problem could be very easily at least partially fixed by giving all high tier Cruisers repairs. I took a double citadel from an NC yesterday in my Atago right at the start of the match. Retreated, repaired, came back, burned the NC to the ground, did 130k damage, survived until the end of the match and ended up 1st on the score board. If that happened in the Mogami (for example), those two early citadel hits would have effectively ended the match for me right there. 

 

But WG have already made it clear that they do not intend to give all Cruisers repairs. In turth WG probably likes it this way, by having a single dominant ship class that is forgiving to play, they attract and retain more of the mediocre/bad players who still pay. And also keep all the whales concentrated on one ship class. Then they can simply make a few copy-paste ships (Misery, Mushashi), give them radar or otherwise make them stupidly OP and watch the cash pile up. 

 

Unfortunately, it seems the BB meta is here to stay.

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4 minutes ago, SovietFury43 said:

WOW! Willy Wanka, the official knight-defender of Battleships and the current meta will burn your house to the ground and eat your kittens when he sees this.

Let 'em come. I defended carriers, I could deal with a few gits as they vomit the same arguments they always do.

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4 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

Let 'em come. I defended carriers, I could deal with a few gits as they vomit the same arguments they always do.

 

Trust me, Willy is quite special. He actually argues that the IJN DD torpedo nerfs were actually buffs to IJN DDs because it makes torpedoes easier to dodge for IJN DDs on the enemy team and as such should not be considered indirect buffs to BBs.

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Excellent writeup mate! 

 

One thing I would say, though is that imo it's the skill floor that is way lower than a BB, rather than the skill ceiling. Not that skill ceiling is *that* high, but a good BB player can do much more in terms of match influence than a bad one, while even an average player can rack up tons of damage. 

 

Most cruisers and DD's have much higher skill floors and much bigger variety (as you stated), and in my opinion, that is what makes people go for BB's. 

 

In short, I agree. 

 

PS: I'll stilk take my cruisers over my BB's, because I'm weird like that. 

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5 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Sooooo much text.

You clicked on something posted by me and expected something else?

5 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

The point narrowed down is that you want cruisers to be the main/universal class and bbs less common?

No. The point is that despite WG creating the game with the intention of making cruisers the universal class, battleships act far more like a universal class than cruisers do. The article might be motivated by me wanting to see more cruisers in the matches, but that isn't the point of the article.

4 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

One thing I would say, though is that imo it's the skill floor that is way lower than a BB, rather than the skill ceiling. Not that skill ceiling is *that* high, but a good BB player can do much more in terms of match influence than a bad one, while even an average player can rack up tons of damage. 

I still consider the relatively lower skill ceiling to be a problem for the battleship class as a whole. No matter how good a battleship player is and how awful their enemy is, there is a sharp limit on how much power a skilled player can wield in a battleship against other battleships which gives poor battleship players an easier time than poor cruiser or destroyer players.

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On 2/10/2018 at 2:02 PM, loppantorkel said:

Sooooo much text. The point narrowed down is that you want cruisers to be the main/universal class and bbs less common?

 

No, it's more like a situation summary of the reasons why the situation is what it is. 

 

On 2/10/2018 at 2:01 PM, clocky said:

TLDR

 

Why even comment then? 

 

On 2/10/2018 at 2:13 PM, dasCKD said:

[...] 

I still consider the relatively lower skill ceiling to be a problem for the battleship class as a whole. No matter how good a battleship player is and how awful their enemy is, there is a sharp limit on how much power a skilled player can wield in a battleship against other battleships which gives poor battleship players an easier time than poor cruiser or destroyer players.

 

That is very true. I didn't consider that. 

 

PS: after reading your article I feel a bit guilty for proposing HMS Vanguard. 

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3 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Nice effort, but you tend to some oversimplifications here. A bb won't always damage an enemy with a hit, angling is a thing. In opposite to that have fun angling against zao HE. Had several 9k salvos, plus fires and what not. 

A battleship salvo still has the highest amount of effecting change compared to most ships. A Zao firing at a Kurfurst or Montana for example might hit the midplate, gun turrets, or belt and do close to no damage whilst a battleship also has the option to switch to high explosives. This is even encouraged with ships like the Conqueror with poor AP penetration but broken HE. It's also a matter of the learning curve. Even tier X cruisers need to know how to exploit their armor whilst all a battleship player has to do is point their bow at the enemy and effectively negate most AP damage.

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Sometimes it seems as if WG just doesn't put any thought into game balance when designing new ships at all.

 

When they decided to give the German BBs hydro and great secondary's, it seemed like they want to encourage BBs to play more aggressively. And then they add the RN BBs and give them unprecedented HE spam capabilities, better concealment then Cruisers and submerged citadels. Basically everything a cowardly map edge sniper ever dreamed of.

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Nice post. Finally someone who makes an effort to look at the problem, instead of aggressively complaining about it.

 

I am not sure you are clear on the definition of universal. It means applicable to all, but you repeatedly build your argument around the premise that players either new or lacking skill are drawn to BBs. You make this argument by correctly pointing out the psychology of long range, big hits, tough armor and large hitpoints as the driving force behind this. You go on to point out the BBs playstyles are largely universal and transcend the nuances of the class allowing unskilled and new players better access, unlike other classes. The conclusion you draw is that these attributes are the reason that a certain subset of players favor BBs. That makes BBs are not a "universal", but, in fact, a specialist class.

 

You bias shines through glaringly at times. So much so that even when the evidence you present does not even support the point you are arguing you seem undeterred. Also you refer to unskilled and new players in derogatory terms. You go through great effort to present your arguments as analytical and thought through, but this complete undermines that.

 

I do think your analyses of the psychological factors behind the allure of BBs for a specific portion of the playerbase is spot on. The iconic nature, security and power coupled with the relatively simple and easily transferable skill set make BBs very appealing to new and unskilled players. The question then becomes: how can skilled and veteran players help this subset to explore more of the game in order to at least learn the nuances of BB play and hopefully learn how to carve out a nich for themselves with other classes.

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50 minutes ago, SovietFury43 said:

WOW! Willy Wanka, the official knight-defender of Battleships and the current meta will burn your house to the ground and eat your kittens when he sees this.

 

Any way, this has been apparent even a year ago and WG did nothing, they are still not doing anything. Sure, they may make a comment here and there about the oversaturation of BBs, but meanwhile they continue to nerf everything else and indirectly buff BBs.  

 

I believe this problem could be very easily at least partially fixed by giving all high tier Cruisers repairs. I took a double citadel from an NC yesterday in my Atago right at the start of the match. Retreated, repaired, came back, burned the NC to the ground, did 130k damage, survived until the end of the match and ended up 1st on the score board. If that happened in the Mogami (for example), those two early citadel hits would have effectively ended the match for me right there. 

 

But WG have already made it clear that they do not intend to give all Cruisers repairs. In turth WG probably likes it this way, by having a single dominant ship class that is forgiving to play, they attract and retain more of the mediocre/bad players who still pay. And also keep all the whales concentrated on one ship class. Then they can simply make a few copy-paste ships (Misery, Mushashi), give them radar or otherwise make them stupidly OP and watch the cash pile up. 

 

Unfortunately, it seems the BB meta is here to stay.

^^That is the gospel truth and there is plenty of evidence that that is exactly how Wargaming is dealing with this issue and that they have zero intention or incentive to do change the status quo. Wargaming simply makes more money by keeping the BB meta strong and profit is king. If WoT is used as a measure of Wargaming's business model it is that powercreep is used as a tool to make the players spend money on gold/dubloons in order to convert free xp so they can advance through to tier 10 without having to grind their way through the new line and this is exactly what Wargaming is doing in WoWS as well. The game has only one purpose which is to grind to tier 10, all other things such as CB, ranked etc. etc. are only there to keep competetively minded players in the game as the game in itself really has nothing to offer game experience wise other than repetitive gameplay and frustration over a bad meta and bad players.

 

The only way to get a different, and better, game experience is to play a better multiplayer naval warfare game which, alas, do not exist at this moment.

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Great article, your analysis of why BBs are so numerous are interesting and in some cases new.

 

I also love how you don’t propose buffs or nerfs as such, but invite to a debate.

 

That said, I’m not sure WG is going to do anything about it as metas change, maybe the upcomming carrier changes that we know nothing about is going to do something to the meta, who knows. I only wish they’d reduce the manouverability of BBs again... some BBs turn faster than most cruisers and even some of the longer destroyers...

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3 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

I think we need raised citadels so bbs can feed on themselves better

Amen. (means: so shall it be)

 

 

I would accept getting the citadel of my Missouri raised to the level where it was on the Iowa before being lowered.

 

 

I remeber my last Iowa-match back then very well: i supported the DD at B, saw an enemy BB at A (90 degrees off my starboard) and knew: that guy will stretch my anoos. And that´s what happened. 50k gone in one salvo. I got punished for having bad positioning. I learned from it.

 

Today i see BBs standing/sailing broadside-on like potatoes and they get away with it.

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Well written and I basically agrgee with all you have written. Interestingly enough I have myself gravitated towards BB play for grinding missions and and playing ranked, despite the fact that I actually prefer DDs and cruisers - and started with playing them. I am by no means a gamer that generally avoids challanges, however, at some point the sheer amount of BBs in each and every game feeds frustration when you are in one of only a few squshi cruisers - and so, it just sometimes feels easier to play BBs.

I do think it is a shame how things have developed. I have two tX DDs but have stalled on the Neptune because I simply ran out of steam playing cruisers - even though I actually like the challange of UK cruisers.

 

I can't help but wonder if range in itself would be a source for solving a lot of the problems with BB overpopulation, snipe and hide mentality etc. While same range for all would make WOWs a totally different and even more arcade like game, I would like to see much shorter ranges for BBs, forcing them in play to have a chance of downing anything. I think that alone would give much more dynamics to a battle and would require that you actually play somewhat intelligently to survive in your BB. And with this I am not genaralilsing BB players, I have been up against enough really skilled BB players to knowthey exist and can do a whole lot of difference in a game, as it is now however it is a you say just too easy to e.g. stay in the back and stille feel you contribute even though from a team perspective you actually do not really do anything of significance...

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23 minutes ago, justadude0815 said:

I do think your analyses of the psychological factors behind the allure of BBs for a specific portion of the playerbase is spot on. The iconic nature, security and power coupled with the relatively simple and easily transferable skill set make BBs very appealing to new and unskilled players. The question then becomes: how can skilled and veteran players help this subset to explore more of the game in order to at least learn the nuances of BB play and hopefully learn how to carve out a nich for themselves with other classes.

New and bad players will always exist and best case scenario in a battle is that they are playing bbs. If they wanted to learn and get better and if they have the capability, they would improve. Some improve, some won't. BB/cruiser/dd gameplay is in a pretty good spot at the moment. WG are introducing minor new mechanics, like changing smoke, deepwater torps, that have improved the game. I don't see any good reason to try make new/bad players move to cruisers instead. Forum would be flooded by complaints, cruisers would underperform, they'd probably buff cruisers or nerf bbs and cruisers would be even more powerful than before.

 

Would be interesting to hear what WG thinks of interclass balance and how they balance the classes between themselves.

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@dasCKD "... they are nothing but a reef under construction." I steal that directly to my clipboard xD

:Smile_medal:+1 for the effort, and for that, that the text is in spoilers so u not get hit by wallOfText :Smile_trollface:

 

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