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HMS Vanguard - T8 Royal Navy premium BB proposal

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11 hours ago, creamgravy said:

 

A slow shell, with 0.015s fuse, usually explodes before entering the deep BB citadel.

 

 

In WOWS they're identical (same drag/muzzle velocity and weight) Here's a decent comparison tool > http://wowsft.com/shipStatComparison

Only Warspite has slight a difference (worse drag, better Krupp, 0.033s fuse)

 

700px-ShipDispersion.jpg

Longer ships have a wider dispersion ellipse.

 

At 18km a Hood shell has a minimum dispersion ellipse of v = 624m and h = 162m

At 18km a KGV shell has a minimum dispersion ellipse of v = 554m and h = 162m.

 

 

 

 

Did you compare Hood and Monarch? They happen to use the same sucky shell :D 

 

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12 hours ago, creamgravy said:

Longer ships have a wider dispersion ellipse.

Source? This makes no sense and there is no reason why this would be the case. If it was, Hood would not be able to hit a DD at point blank range, but it can because the turrets aim into the middle. Hood having worse dispersion is purely a balance choice from WG.

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12 hours ago, Affeks said:

I was mostly refering to the garbage penetration... Only redeeming factors is that at least it aint as bad as A crap aka Ashitaka

 

The penetration is only bad if your hitting BB belt armour all the time, 420mm at 10km is more than enough for everything else. Roma has a crazy 590mm at 10km yet it doesn't go around deleting BBs left right and centre.

Your stats are even similar to Hood (with far less ships sunk) so they can't be that bad... :cap_like:

 

1 hour ago, piritskenyer said:

 

Did you compare Hood and Monarch? They happen to use the same sucky shell :D 

 

 

Monarch shells travel at 836m/s with a 2250 Krupp and normal 45-60 degree ricochet angles. 505mm pen at 10km makes them similar to Mk XVIIb Cardonald shells.

 

38 minutes ago, VC381 said:

Source? This makes no sense and there is no reason why this would be the case. If it was, Hood would not be able to hit a DD at point blank range, but it can because the turrets aim into the middle. Hood having worse dispersion is purely a balance choice from WG.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration and http://wowsft.com/shipStatComparison

 

It's got nothing to do with turrets not aiming into the middle, it's just the ellipse a single shell can disperse into. Those are values have no target lock etc (which reduces them by half etc)
 

WG do mess about with the these values to give ships more flavor. Duke of York (Roma/French BBs) has low min V/H dispersion. Occasionally (at close ranges) you get really tight groups you'd never get with a BB like Hood.

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1 hour ago, creamgravy said:

 

The penetration is only bad if your hitting BB belt armour all the time, 420mm at 10km is more than enough for everything else. Roma has a crazy 590mm at 10km yet it doesn't go around deleting BBs left right and centre.

Your stats are even similar to Hood (with far less ships sunk) so they can't be that bad... :cap_like:

That pen curve is unreliable, angling increases armor regardless of improved autobounce angles. 

Still the pen is terrible and against other BBs they threaten your broadside at much longer ranges with better accuracy and alpha to boot

O6iVrU4lv8L5Zw42ZYjTsAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC.pn

A34TM8NrTu8wAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC.png

When the pen is on par with Lyon.. its not enough

Roma is a completely different story though, its not worth comparing.

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The pen of Hood is not important right now. The only way that thing can achieve frontal citadels is not by overmatching but by having shells so incredibly bad at energy retention that at normal combat ranges their angle of descent is no longer in the autobounce zone (aided by the better autobounce angles but still). 

 

Let's keep the focus on Vanguard, and no, Vanguard should never get 4 crh shells. Those were never intended. 

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For Tier VIII? Hmm, I'd say give Vanguard Warspite shells in terms of fuse, dispersion and sigma, but 25s reload. Maybe a little bit more velocity, maybe not.

 

At any rate, I can't stand Monarch (it's AP isn't bad to say it's British BB AP, but it's just far, far too inaccurate to make it ever count), so a well-performing Vanguard at Tier VIII without stupid gimmick HE and useless AP would be nice.

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On 03/06/2018 at 10:22 PM, DoktorvonWer said:

For Tier VIII? Hmm, I'd say give Vanguard Warspite shells in terms of fuse, dispersion and sigma, but 25s reload. Maybe a little bit more velocity, maybe not.

 

At any rate, I can't stand Monarch (it's AP isn't bad to say it's British BB AP, but it's just far, far too inaccurate to make it ever count), so a well-performing Vanguard at Tier VIII without stupid gimmick HE and useless AP would be nice.

 

That's pretty much the plan, but with a 27-28 second reload on higher velocity Warspite (although a bit better than those) AP shells. 

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that would be great if that ship is an AP spammer not HE xD          ..............  i think its going to be AP spammer ...  well lets see what WG does

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So what does Jean Bart mean for possible Vanguard implementation? WG seem to think they can balance a post-war BB with 8x 380mm armament at T9. Vanguard T9 with reload and radar gimmicks anyone?

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12 hours ago, VC381 said:

So what does Jean Bart mean for possible Vanguard implementation? WG seem to think they can balance a post-war BB with 8x 380mm armament at T9. Vanguard T9 with reload and radar gimmicks anyone?

 

Please, no more gimmicks.

 

Just make Vanguard a decent, normal BB which doesn't need a gimmick...

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On 01/08/2018 at 10:15 AM, VC381 said:

So what does Jean Bart mean for possible Vanguard implementation? WG seem to think they can balance a post-war BB with 8x 380mm armament at T9. Vanguard T9 with reload and radar gimmicks anyone?

 

13 hours ago, DoktorvonWer said:

 

Please, no more gimmicks.

 

Just make Vanguard a decent, normal BB which doesn't need a gimmick...

 

That's pretty much my take on it. We will see how Jean Bart turns out, but I think she definitely has more going for her with all armament forward for T9, than Vanguard would have with her balanced layout.

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On 2.8.2018 at 12:21 PM, piritskenyer said:

 

 

That's pretty much my take on it. We will see how Jean Bart turns out, but I think she definitely has more going for her with all armament forward for T9, than Vanguard would have with her balanced layout.

Tier 11 AA, all fore layout, excellent french mobility, responive turrets and fast shells. So imo Jean Bart does have "more" going for it, but if it will be enough is another story.

 

The only reason they would want Vanguard at 9 however is if they want to force a KGV premium at tier 8. Even then there are enough tier 9 candidates for the RN with G/N3 and Lion prelims.

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On 1.8.2018 at 10:23 PM, DoktorvonWer said:

 

Please, no more gimmicks.

 

Just make Vanguard a decent, normal BB which doesn't need a gimmick...

 

Thank you 

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Oh look, they had it with good AP then when it was horribly underpowered, instead of balancing it they... 

 

Changed it to low fuse AP gimmick and gave it 1/4 pen HE.

 

Fml. Why must you SCREW every famous British BB, WG? Why can't we just enjoy a tier VIII with accurate, high-punch but lower calibre 15" guns? Why must they be loaded with gimmick useless short fuse crap and pro-HE-spam idiocy? 

 

RIP Vanguard.

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The only good RN BB are the Prem ones. Namely Nelson and Warspite as they have decent guns and AP shells.

 

KGV is cute but HE spam in a BB is proven to destroy brain cells. I really want Vanguard to have decent AP. The turret rotation and Sigma are a start. Even if you gave it near Cruiser accurate AP it wouldn't be OP due to the calibre. Hell keep it's reload at 30s and make the AP deadlier...

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Beside the looks everything else is awful (by watching Flamu's stream).

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6 hours ago, _DeathWing_ said:

Beside the looks everything else is awful (by watching Flamu's stream).

When even @Paschadds a salty intro to a replay, you know the ship is worse than bad.

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On 5/4/2018 at 1:35 PM, Affeks said:

That pen curve is unreliable, angling increases armor regardless of improved autobounce angles. 

Still the pen is terrible and against other BBs they threaten your broadside at much longer ranges with better accuracy and alpha to boot

O6iVrU4lv8L5Zw42ZYjTsAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC.pn

A34TM8NrTu8wAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC.png

When the pen is on par with Lyon.. its not enough

Roma is a completely different story though, its not worth comparing.

Where is this penetration values?

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Dont forget its Work in Progress and i am very sure they HAVE to buff this - yes, in the current state its a pain to play it. Even on top tier its very hard to get good results in the ship.

I hope it will be a decent good ship to play because thats what Vanguard deserves to be in my opinion :Smile_honoring:

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On 10/21/2018 at 4:08 PM, longley89 said:

Where is this penetration values?

proships.ru

the curves were so close to the values provided in the pen curve thread, so I used proships ever since. From my experience ingame these curves are accurate, ofc need to reduce 1-2 km due to the smallest of angles adding effective thickness.

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For imagine. I'll add here a comparison of the penetration values of all 15 inches guns that we find in the game. I forgot the Mark I 15 "/ 42 (38.1 cm) gun (Warspite, QE, Hood). I will add them later.

Spojler

Il8HZS9.png?1

 

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WfE1HTalAluwhswcpm1Ac0rm6zzvlXeFZt-EXk2F

 

ST. Balance Changes.

 

British battleship Vanguard, tier VIII

- Consumable сhanged: " Repair team"

-- Cooldown: decreased from 80 (120) to 60 (90) seconds

-- Recovery efficiency: increased from 0.5 to 0.6 % per second

- The citadel size has been reduced

- The rudder shift time has been reduced from 16.2 to 9.72 seconds

- The AP shell detonation time has been increased from 0.015 to 0.033 seconds

- The detection range has been increased from 14.76 to 16.04 km

- The visibility after firing MGs in smoke has been increased from 13.51 to 14.73 km According to the test results, this battleship was too vulnerable to the AP shells of enemy battleships.

 

Improvement of shells, reducing the size of the citadel and the acceleration of the rudder shift time will allow Vanguard to live longer and manoeuvre better under fire.

At the same time a faster rudder shift compensates for the uncomfortable MG firing angles. AP shells of the battleship often exploded without reaching the citadel of the target during the test.

With the new fuse timings, AP shells will detonate more often in the citadel of targets, however, the number of overpenetrations will also increase.

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4 hours ago, Pasch said:

WfE1HTalAluwhswcpm1Ac0rm6zzvlXeFZt-EXk2F

 

ST. Balance Changes.

 

British battleship Vanguard, tier VIII

- Consumable сhanged: " Repair team"

-- Cooldown: decreased from 80 (120) to 60 (90) seconds

-- Recovery efficiency: increased from 0.5 to 0.6 % per second

- The citadel size has been reduced

- The rudder shift time has been reduced from 16.2 to 9.72 seconds

- The AP shell detonation time has been increased from 0.015 to 0.033 seconds

- The detection range has been increased from 14.76 to 16.04 km

- The visibility after firing MGs in smoke has been increased from 13.51 to 14.73 km According to the test results, this battleship was too vulnerable to the AP shells of enemy battleships.

 

Improvement of shells, reducing the size of the citadel and the acceleration of the rudder shift time will allow Vanguard to live longer and manoeuvre better under fire.

At the same time a faster rudder shift compensates for the uncomfortable MG firing angles. AP shells of the battleship often exploded without reaching the citadel of the target during the test.

With the new fuse timings, AP shells will detonate more often in the citadel of targets, however, the number of overpenetrations will also increase.

 

"Improvement" of shells, aka next time if it ain't broke don't try to fix it.

 

Everything else: 

freddy.jpg

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On 10/2/2018 at 1:43 PM, Negativvv said:

The only good RN BB are the Prem ones. Namely Nelson and Warspite as they have decent guns and AP shells.

 

KGV is cute but HE spam in a BB is proven to destroy brain cells. I really want Vanguard to have decent AP. The turret rotation and Sigma are a start. Even if you gave it near Cruiser accurate AP it wouldn't be OP due to the calibre. Hell keep it's reload at 30s and make the AP deadlier...

It is true, but I think they are good performers even if they are designed wrongly, you can be competetive especially the lower/mid tiers I have enjoyed. Orion was very strong before nerf, probably useful still. I play Warspite more than QE but QE is not bad.

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