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HMS Vanguard - T8 Royal Navy premium BB proposal

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Greetings fellow forumites,

 

Having my PC dying on me while travelling has left me with way too much time on my hands.

 

HMS Vanguard

 

 

main-qimg-53bfa90caf333ae638ce36541f36d4

 

 

I'll quickly go over the historical aspect of the ship, although not too much in detail.

Spoiler

Vanguard was laid down on 2 October 1941 as part of the 1940 Emergency War Programme, and was launched on 30 November 1944 by HRH Princess Elizabeth, her very first ship launched. During construction, Vanguard went through many redesigns, which were effectuated due to wartime experiences.
She was commisioned into the Royal Navy on 12 May 1946. Too late for the war, her main duties were mostly ceremonial and represetational. After her sea trials in 1946, she served as a Royal Yacht for the sovereign's Royal Tour in South Africa.

After the Royal Tour, she was sent on a refit, during which she was selected as the Royal Yacht (yet again) for the Royal Tour of Australia which never materialised due to King George VI's declining health.

In 1949 she became the flagship of the Meditteranean Fleet, after which she was the flagship of the Home Fleet Training Squadron. In 1952 she started to fit out as the Royal Yacht of King George VI, but due to the death of the King, that was never completed. In 1953 she participated in Queen Elizabeth II's Coronation Review, and during the 1950's she participated in various NATO excercises.

In 1959 she entered a refit period, during which the Admiralty decided that maintaining a battleship was not an effective way to spend resources and sold the ship for scrapping. Vanguard was formally decomissioned on 7 June 1960 and was subsequently broken up at Faslane.

 

As you can see, she had a rather uneventful career and a somewhat sad end to her.

 

How would she translate in game? Well, here is where the fun begins, and we don't even need the RN superheal to make it work.

 

Survivability

Spoiler
  • Hit points (based on a deep load displacement of 52'250 metric tons): 72'400 HP
  • Armour:
    • Belt: 330mm, with 356mm over the magazines, tapering to 114mm's at the lower ends
    • Forward and rear citadel bulkhead: 305mm
    • Barbettes: 330mm all around except towards the centre of the ship where it tapered down to 279mm
    • Turrets:
      • Face: 330mm
      • Side: 230mm
      • Rear: 180mm
    • Main deck: 152-114mm
    • Plating: 32mm
  • Torpedo Damage Reduction: 40%
  • Heal: 0,6% total HP / second; 10% citadel damage; 28 seconds; 120 sec rld standard, 80 seconds premium; 3 charges standard, 4 charges premium
  • Damage control consumable: Duration 5 seconds; 90 seconds reload standard, 60 seconds premium

 

Armament:

Spoiler
  • Main battery: 15" (381mm) /42 Mk I in Mk I/N RP12 twin turrets
    • Layout: AB-XY
    • Range: 20,5 km
    • Rate of fire: 2.2 r/m/g (27 seconds reload)
    • Rate of train: 4.5 deg/s (40 seconds / 180 degrees)
    • Rate of elevation: 5 deg/s (~2 seconds from min to max elevation)
    • Dispersion: 235m
    • Sigma: 1.95
    • Ammunition:
      • AP: AP Mk XVIIb (6 crh) (Cardonald) with supercharges
        • damage: 11800
        • muzzle velocity: 804 m/s
        • penetration (5,5-11-18,2-20,5 km) [mm]: 640 - 521 - 404 - ~373
      • HE: HE Mk VIIIb
        • damage: 5300
        • muzzle velocity: 732 m/s
        • firechance: 34%
        • penetration: calibre/6
  • Secondary battery: QF 5.25" (133mm) / 50 Mk I*
    • Layout: P1-4/S1-4
    • Range: 6 km
    • Rate of fire: 9 r/m/g (6,6 seconds reload)
    • Rate of train: 20 deg/s (9 seconds / 180 degrees)
    • Ammunition:
      • HE: HE Mk IC
        • damage: 1900
        • muzzle velocity: 792 m/s
        • firechance: 8%
        • penetration: calibre/6

 

Anti-air

Spoiler
  • QF 5.25" (133mm) / 50 Mk I*
    • Number of mounts: 8x2
    • Range: 5 km
    • DPS: 68
  • Bofors Mk VI:
    • Number of mounts: 10x6
    • Range: 3,5 km
    • DPS: 292
  • Bofors STAAG Mk II:
    • Number of mounts: 1x2
    • Range: 3,5 km
    • DPS: 25
  • Bofors Mk IX:
    • Number of mounts: 11x1
    • Range: 3,5 km
    • DPS: 95

 

Maneuverability

Spoiler
  • Maximum speed: 30 kts
  • Rudder shift time: 16 s
  • Turning radius: 860m

 

Concealment

Spoiler

Surface detection range: 15,5 km

Air detection range: 13,5 km

 

 

Overall, what we find based on these (projected) stats, is that Vanguard would be, above all else, an actual (classical, so to speak) tank. She would make use of her hitpoints and [angled] armour to soak up damage, while dishing it out just as well. I decided not to give her any gimmicky consumable, so she is basically just a BB with good anti-air, strong (while certainly not the strongest) armour and generally just a sturdy ship.

 

She doesn't get hydro, or radar (which she could comfortably have, given her radar equipment out of the shipyard), she doesn't even get an aircraft, as the only aircraft she ever had were rotary wing (and those aren't in the game)

 

Hope you guys like the proposal, it would be cool to see the last ever BB in the game.

 

Gallery, via MaritimeQuest

Spoiler

rule_britannia_wayne_scarpaci.jpg

05_hms_vanguard.jpg

02_hms_vanguard.jpg

03_hms_vanguard.jpg

 

Edited by piritskenyer
Working in Affeks' reasoning, adjusting dispersion, added turret rotation, elevation, penetration at endrange, correcting AP shell designation, added galery, added TDR number, replaced broken header image
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Very nice, gonna give you my input on some stuff though :fish_book:

 

I always expected range to land closer to 20km. Vanguard is based on Lion if I remember correctly and Lion has a 20.7km range so Im imagining something closer to that. 

Monarch is basically a KGV hence the 18 km range. Also compared to Monarch Vanguard doesnt have a catapult plane, so no shame in giving Vanguard that 20+ km range.

 

AP alpha for Vanguard with SCs are indeed around 11 800, muzzle velocity does directly influence AP alpha.

 

From calculations AA is:

8x2 133mm, 68dps@5.2km
10x6+1x2+11 40mm, 413.1dps@3.5km

 

I dont remember the value I used for the individual AA mounts but they are based of values I found on CQ. 

From what I could find Vanguard uses the same 133mm mounts that CQ uses that reach out to 5.2 km.

 

Other than that your numbers landed right where mine landed, with the exception of HP which I rounded up to 72 500 and AP alpha that I rounded down to 11 700 :Smile-_tongue:

 

 

On another note though I think we are very likely to see a 2.0 sigma and if earlier WG practices are any indication then the 2% heal is very likely in an attempt by WG to balance lack of catapult plane.

 

I do like the concealment and maneuverability stats that are just a teeny bit worse than Lion. Vanguard (in gameplay terms) is a weird hybrid between Lion, CQ and Hood after all.

 

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54 minutes ago, Affeks said:

Very nice, gonna give you my input on some stuff though :fish_book:

 

I always expected range to land closer to 20km. Vanguard is based on Lion if I remember correctly and Lion has a 20.7km range so Im imagining something closer to that. 

Monarch is basically a KGV hence the 18 km range. Also compared to Monarch Vanguard doesnt have a catapult plane, so no shame in giving Vanguard that 20+ km range.

[...]

 

Range can be increased no problem, especially since we are talking about a ship that doesn't have aircraft (spotting or otherwise). 18,5 seemed to be rather average when I drafted this, but thinking about it, you may be on to something here.

[range increase to 20,5 noted]

 

57 minutes ago, Affeks said:

[...]

AP alpha for Vanguard with SCs are indeed around 11 800, muzzle velocity does directly influence AP alpha.

[...]

Do you have any source to this? Earlier I have been disappointed by shells where I [foolishly] derived alpha from MV (and pen), so until you provide me with sometghing on that, I'm gonna take that with a grain of salt [nothing personal].

 

59 minutes ago, Affeks said:

[...]

From calculations AA is:

8x2 133mm, 68dps@5.2km
10x6+1x2+11 40mm, 413.1dps@3.5km

 

I dont remember the value I used for the individual AA mounts but they are based of values I found on CQ. 

From what I could find Vanguard uses the same 133mm mounts that CQ uses that reach out to 5.2 km.

[...]

 

I ripped the numbers directly from HMS Conqueror, adjusting for the number of barrels. I'm following WG logic there, not to worry!:Smile_teethhappy:

 

1 hour ago, Affeks said:

[...]

Other than that your numbers landed right where mine landed, with the exception of HP which I rounded up to 72 500 and AP alpha that I rounded down to 11 700 :Smile-_tongue:

 

 

On another note though I think we are very likely to see a 2.0 sigma and if earlier WG practices are any indication then the 2% heal is very likely in an attempt by WG to balance lack of catapult plane.

 

I do like the concealment and maneuverability stats that are just a teeny bit worse than Lion. Vanguard (in gameplay terms) is a weird hybrid between Lion, CQ and Hood after all.

 

Yeah, well, I used the HP calculation formula of

Battleship Hitpoints: 10988 + (tonnage X 1.1769)

when calculating the HP for Vanguard, and at 52250, the exact value was 72481,025. I decided to round it down to 400 because that seemed high enough as-is.

The shell damage is rounded up because even with the higher shell damage, she's lagging behind Bismarck's and Tirpitz's theoretical DPM.

Sigma is sub-2 (only just) because of the dispersion issues caused by the use of supercharge. 1,95 is still darn good IMO, not as 360-noscope as Warspite's, but nearly.

 

The 2% heal does't seem to be workable for me here. Afterall, we're talking about the highest-HP BB on T8 (unless I missed something), and that alone should give her a rather healthy repair at the 0.5% rate. I tried to make a point of not having gimmicks on this ships and for a reason: I want to give the RN a "classical" BB in the sense that people can return to the roots of BB play, without sacrificing the Royal Navy experience. RN BB's in reality were very much about being able to slug it out and dish it out, something not really represented in game IMO.

 

The maneuverability stats were directly lifted from Lion by transforming Lion's stats up to the longer hull of Vanguard (take Lion's length, divide by Vanguard's length, you got the ratio for the stats. Except rudder shift, where I just gave a value that seemed appropriate).

 

Concealment-wise she is worse than Monarch, but hey, that's her only real drawback to the other ship, innit?

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49 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

Do you have any source to this? Earlier I have been disappointed by shells where I [foolishly] derived alpha from MV (and pen), so until you provide me with sometghing on that, I'm gonna take that with a grain of salt [nothing personal].

None taken, I do not have any real sources on this other than my own experience when playing with numbers.

I use the 18.588*((MV*AP shell weight)^0.4787) and I always come up with a number close to ingame values

Example: Charles Martel Mle 1931 and 1934 gun shoots the exact same 134 kg projectile, but at 820 m/s and 845 m/s respectively yet AP alpha increases from 4800 to 4900. With that formula I get 4812 with 820 m/s shell which ofc is rounded down to 4800 and 4882 for the 845 m/s shell which can be rounded up to 4900.

 

Thats the most convincing example I can bring up, but I have always landed close (within 200) of the ingame values so I just assumed that MV and projectile weight forms the AP alpha.

49 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

I ripped the numbers directly from HMS Conqueror, adjusting for the number of barrels. I'm following WG logic there, not to worry!:Smile_teethhappy:

If you take the values from ingame then it rounds up or down the dps values. I use the WoWs wiki as it takes a decimal into account, which is important when finding the DPS for a single mount the multiplying it by something like 44 (in the case for oerlikon guns on USN ships at least). The wiki also uses 2 decimals for AA range, though I never bother to write 5.19 instead of 5.2 since I dont have to multiply this.

49 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

The 2% heal does't seem to be workable for me here. 

Same here, I just think that WG will overly compensate Vanguard for lacking a plane and having "underwhelming" main guns..

 

Personally I agree with you, I just want Vanguard to be a solid old school battleship. I dont want no Hood AA button or Nelson heal... but hey I just have to mentally prepare for the worst when it comes to a ship like this... waited too long for it

49 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

The maneuverability stats were directly lifted from Lion by transforming Lion's stats up to the longer hull of Vanguard (take Lion's length, divide by Vanguard's length, you got the ratio for the stats. Except rudder shift, where I just gave a value that seemed appropriate).

 

Concealment-wise she is worse than Monarch, but hey, that's her only real drawback to the other ship, innit?

Sounds like a really nice way to do it. I do something along those lines to find missing info on bursting charges for HE shells.

 

All in all though youve really catched everything I want this ship to be, youre giving me too high hopes since as with Hood and Kii they will always find some spectacular way to mess up and dissapoint me.

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Idk, but for me the 2 RN ships I am the most hyped for are HMS Tiger/Blake and ofc this beauty.

 

Sucker for late/post war ships if this wasnt evidence enough.

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9 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

I decided not to give her any gimmicky consumable

 

Now this proposal will be rejected by default.

C'mon, you know better than this! All premium BBs nowadays need gimmicks, preferably something that will displace cruisers even further!

Include hydro, DFAA and super heal then WG will maybe consider it.

Spoiler

:Smile_trollface:

 

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Anything but Monarch! 

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I'd love to see Vanguard in game.

 

Wouldn't even need to be hard to model since they've got the Lion hull and I'm sure 15” turrets could be modded in.

 

Good Sigma and dispersion would be the only "gimmick" needed although a Warspite level heal would be nice too. No need for the lunatic Conq/Lion turbo heal.

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3 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

I'd love to see Vanguard in game.

 

Wouldn't even need to be hard to model since they've got the Lion hull and I'm sure 15” turrets could be modded in.

 

Good Sigma and dispersion would be the only "gimmick" needed although a Warspite level heal would be nice too. No need for the lunatic Conq/Lion turbo heal.

 

I was actually considering the 0.6%/sec heal of Warspite, but I'm not convinced it is needed, due to best in tier HP.

 

 

I don't know what the citadel placement was on the ship, but I suspect thhe top would be slightly out of the water. @Trainspite can you advise? 

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1 hour ago, piritskenyer said:

 

I was actually considering the 0.6%/sec heal of Warspite, but I'm not convinced it is needed, due to best in tier HP.

How about Warspite dmg con? Cruiser dmg con? 

 

Seems like a nice and lowkey gimmick in my eyes.

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1 hour ago, Affeks said:

How about Warspite dmg con? Cruiser dmg con? 

 

Seems like a nice and lowkey gimmick in my eyes.

 

Do you mean Warspite DCP and RP? Or only the DCP?

 

I for one am tempted at giving Vanguard Warspite's consumables, as that wouldn't make her particularly gimmicky, but would provide continuty with Warspite.

 

You know what? I'll cheat and do that. Not like it's a "real" gimmick anymore anyway...

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3 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

 

Do you mean Warspite DCP and RP? Or only the DCP?

 

I for one am tempted at giving Vanguard Warspite's consumables, as that wouldn't make her particularly gimmicky, but would provide continuty with Warspite.

 

You know what? I'll cheat and do that. Not like it's a "real" gimmick anymore anyway...

My intention was only DCP as it seemed you had already gone through Repair party.

 

To me though I wouldnt mind if Vanguard took both Warspites DCP and RP.

 

The thing with Vanguard is that despite the 72k HP pool, her all or nothing design doesnt make it very tanky at all ingame. I kinda want Vanguards flavor to be tanky as its the heaviest ship at that tier (so far) yet it has worse guns than her competition. Then again going with 2% (40%) heal is too much so the 0.6% (16.8%) is a nice half measure. 

 

After Warspite came out I always imagined that the RN line would have the same gimmicks as Warspite. Good turnin circles and good DCP/RP. So if Vanguard is anything like Warspite consumables crossed with Hood tankiness and Lion hull I'm gonna be real happy alright.

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18 minutes ago, Affeks said:

My intention was only DCP as it seemed you had already gone through Repair party.

 

To me though I wouldnt mind if Vanguard took both Warspites DCP and RP.

 

The thing with Vanguard is that despite the 72k HP pool, her all or nothing design doesnt make it very tanky at all ingame. I kinda want Vanguards flavor to be tanky as its the heaviest ship at that tier (so far) yet it has worse guns than her competition. Then again going with 2% (40%) heal is too much so the 0.6% (16.8%) is a nice half measure. 

 

After Warspite came out I always imagined that the RN line would have the same gimmicks as Warspite. Good turnin circles and good DCP/RP. So if Vanguard is anything like Warspite consumables crossed with Hood tankiness and Lion hull I'm gonna be real happy alright.

 

Just that little push was enough to make up my un-madeup mind there, so DCP and RP it is.

 

I think Vanguard could be relatively tanky, but not thanks to her armour OR hitpoints, but rather thanks to a combination of both. I think that realised in this way she'd be excellent at bringing in Dreadnought awards after prolonged battles where she uses up all her heals. Know what I mean? Bow tanking would be a possibility against all but Yammy thanks to her bow plating, but it would be rather counterproductive in terms of firepower. You probably couldn't get away with the same stunts as with Bismarck or Tirpitz, sure, but that's their niche.

One thing that I like about the ship is that the belt apparently extends forward and back past the fore and aft citadel bulkheads (that are 305mm-thick themselves). That in effect means that you should have a section of belt in the plating, making it better at angling, and the 305mm citadel bulkheads also mean you can effectively angle against even a Yamato, should you need to.

 

Yeah, I thought RNBB's would have their heals along Warspite's lines, but instead they were given a resurrection tool.

 

Disclaimer: I should also add, that I haven't yet come across detailed armour profiles (only sectional drawings), so I cannot confirm the claim about the belt, I have only seen written mentions of that.

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20 hours ago, Affeks said:

Idk, but for me the 2 RN ships I am the most hyped for are HMS Tiger/Blake and ofc this beauty.

 

Sucker for late/post war ships if this wasnt evidence enough.

problem is only 2x2 15cm turrets

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2 minutes ago, T0byJug said:

problem is only 2x2 15cm turrets

With a shell output close to that of Fiji I dont think its a problem...

 

also post war ship with most likely a lot of auxiliary tools

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Just now, Affeks said:

With a shell output close to that of Fiji I dont think its a problem...

 

also post war ship with most likely a lot of auxiliary tools

true but i don't think you could put here at tier 7 or 8 as you would need to with only 2 turrets

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7 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

 

I was actually considering the 0.6%/sec heal of Warspite, but I'm not convinced it is needed, due to best in tier HP.

 

 

I don't know what the citadel placement was on the ship, but I suspect thhe top would be slightly out of the water. @Trainspite can you advise? 

 

From what I recall, only the sections directly beneath the funnels would be slightly over the waterline, the rest being below it. That would be the accurate way to do it anyway, but WG have been lazy with KGV/Lion/Nelson, with it being either very low, or very high.

 

Personally, I would like to throw in a Warspite like trait like the 0.6% HP repair or Cruiser Damage Control Party with a 60s cooldown too, but that is me, I do like my Warspite and aggressively pushing colonising(TM) with her. Otherwise, Vanguard as you put it with her supercharges/Cardonald shells is good to go, the 27s reload seems quite apt.

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3 minutes ago, T0byJug said:

true but i don't think you could put here at tier 7 or 8 as you would need to with only 2 turrets

Does turret number matter as long as the DPM is there? It would be a minor drawback with the fear of having 50% of your firepower knocked out (I didnt find it that problematic with Dunkek), other than that youd have more or less instant turret traverse and a better AP performance than Fiji as well. 

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6 minutes ago, Trainspite said:

 

From what I recall, only the sections directly beneath the funnels would be slightly over the waterline, the rest being below it. That would be the accurate way to do it anyway, but WG have been lazy with KGV/Lion/Nelson, with it being either very low, or very high.

 

Personally, I would like to throw in a Warspite like trait like the 0.6% HP repair or Cruiser Damage Control Party with a 60s cooldown too, but that is me, I do like my Warspite and aggressively pushing colonising(TM) with her. Otherwise, Vanguard as you put it with her supercharges/Cardonald shells is good to go, the 27s reload seems quite apt.

 

Okay, so what i knew about the citadel, was rather close to reality.

 

Also, I already changed the heal and DCP to the exact same Warspite has.

12 minutes ago, T0byJug said:

problem is only 2x2 15cm turrets

 

I think that while Blake would be a tad gimmicky, she could hack it in T7 (even in T8 with a bit of a stretch) due to the sheer volume of fire she can put out. Of course she'd need the usual RNCL heal and smoke to be viable, and perhaps even the unique ability to spam HE [insert evil laughter], but I think she could manage.

Especially AA would be interesting given the DP nature of the main battery and the 3" AA guns.

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28 minutes ago, Affeks said:

Does turret number matter as long as the DPM is there? It would be a minor drawback with the fear of having 50% of your firepower knocked out (I didnt find it that problematic with Dunkek), other than that youd have more or less instant turret traverse and a better AP performance than Fiji as well. 

Ask the old Ognivoi.. Had lots of games with no guns and 4km torps on a dd with 7+km detection and 90% health left

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3 hours ago, T0byJug said:

Ask the old Ognivoi.. Had lots of games with no guns and 4km torps on a dd with 7+km detection and 90% health left

Okay so its both the old ognivoi AND a DD. 

 

Now Ive never had a Mino gun be permanently knocked out so I dont think its gonna happen too much to Blake.

4 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

I think that while Blake would be a tad gimmicky, she could hack it in T7 (even in T8 with a bit of a stretch) due to the sheer volume of fire she can put out. Of course she'd need the usual RNCL heal and smoke to be viable, and perhaps even the unique ability to spam HE [insert evil laughter], but I think she could manage.

Especially AA would be interesting given the DP nature of the main battery and the 3" AA guns.

Yeah Im not that stubborn about tier 8 anymore haha. 

 

I also think tier 7 is just perfect for it.

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1 hour ago, Origin47 said:

Only if it gets Warspite type AP and accuracy :D

 

Read the gun stats and compare them to Warspite's

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I have been thinking a fair bit about Vanguard recently and it's hopeful inclusion. The big issue is that Vanguards main strengths were radar based, everything from Main guns, secondaries and AA sites used immense radar tracking and search abilities. So how to include that without just going 'lol give a T8 BB radar!'. My idea: A new consumable, 'Fire control radar'. This consumable temporarily improves the ability of the main guns (maybe secondaries as well?) without just being a radar, range goes from 19km to 22km, sigma goes from 1.9 to 2.1 for say 90s (entirely example numbers), unlike the recon plane consumable this doesn't alter player perspective.

 

Also to keep in mind: The Vanguard had the most bulkheads and pumps of any battleship built with a huge amount of compartmentalisation and an inner secondary hull. Her innate torpedo defences should be quite high and if possible flooding repair time quite short.

 

 

The last battleship built, bigger and heavier then the Bismarck? Yeah T8 I think.

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