Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
DFens_666

[IDEA] DWTs and BB play

32 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[NWP]
Players
5,398 posts
6,787 battles

So, been thinking about some stuff, which seems to cause headache for certain ppl, atleast those who are active in Forums.

Ill be seperating those 2 issues mentioned in the Title

 

Deepwatertorpedoes

So, WG is somehow forcing DDs to use DWTs, but for me it feels like, it is shafting DD play too much. With PA-DDs around, i was fearing that ppl will play for their own sake and not for the team/game aka capping and spotting. Im not saying that it happens often, but ive seen PA-DDs do that. Hugging the mapbroder trying to flank so they can torp the ships in the back. Now they want to give Asashio DWTs with 20kms. Imo its totaly wrong. Some ppl will throw those Torps (potentially hitting they own teammates) from who knows where, just because they CAN. Same reason BB player sit at maxrange -because they can.

Do we need everyone to camp in the spawn nowadays?

 

So in general: I feel DWTs on DDs arent bad in general, but the current implementation isnt optimal.

One issue which would solve this, if DDs could switch Torps during the course of the match, like HE and AP shells. Why they dont do that? Im confused. They could easily implement a cptn skill for faster Torpedo reload, or just change the Expert loader that its working with Torps also.

 

Another thing that came to mind was, why not give certain Cruisers DWTs?

The best line for that would be Russian Cruisers imo. They have shortrange Torps which are very situational, and using them against BBs seems to be even more rare. So why not give russian Cruisers DWTs with ~8km range? The ones against BBs/CVs. Once again, this can be combined with the ability to switch torpedoes during the match.

Potentially for Kirov - Chapayev, because Svietlana has 5km torps which seems fine on T4 (lowtiers shouldnt have DWTs anyway), and Donskoi has 8km torps, which is fine also.

I could see them as usefull on other Cruisers aswell, maybe Yorck/Hipper, which could give them a little buff to performance.

 

TL;DR

- Being able to Switch during the game between Torps and DWTs.

- DWTs for some Cruisers which have currently lowrange Torps.

 

 

BB gameplay

 

Not sure how this will sound to some ppl, but i would like some other thoughts on that one also.

I think most ppl know how BBs are effecting the game. Boring to play at times, BB teammates who camp/snipe at maxrange, RNG is always a factor even in close combat...

There has been a lot of commenting on whether BBs should be more accurate, or even less accurate. Imo the less accurate they become, the more boring and frustrating they become to play. Even playing aggresive in a BB can be fatal when RNG is not favoring u. Or when it is, u blast a Cruiser to port from 20km. Inaccuracy doesnt solve anything imo. So id rather make them MORE accurate, which punishes bad aiming, but rewards good aiming on the other hand, and its also rewarding the target when he is evading the shot. This would especially be helpful in BB vs BB combat, because it would punish misplays more (BB showing broadside constantly because not getting punished enough)

At the same time, increase the reload. What? Make them even more boring to play u will ask? No, thats where the fun really starts:

BB Secondaries MUST be used by the player, and wont act as autoshooting guns at everything they can reach. So that means, if a BB player chooses to stay at maxrange, he can sit there and make a shot per minute (f.e.). But for BB player which play more aggressively, they can actively use secondaries against targets in their range, which makes them much more useful than they currently are. Secondary fire against other BBs is pretty useless, and is relying heavily on RNG for fires. Which is imo bad.

Ofc this would need a lot of balancing. Most BBs would need a substential buff to Secondaries, being Range/Reload/Accuracy. But they cant be as accurate as Cruiser guns, because they would potentially be OP then. Somewhere between current Manual AA dispersion and Cruiser dispersion.

This would give the potential to make main battery shells useless against DDs, which is currently being looked at by WG anyway as it seems to me (BB AP devastating DDs). Or make BB AP only overpen DDs for 5% of the max damage. So in order to fight of DDs, u need to become more active and use your secondaries yourself. Would increase the skill level needed for BBs, when u just can blap everything with Main battery guns, also if u want to be more active, get closer.

Im not entirely sure, how Cruisers would be effected by this, when a BB can actively engage them with main battery and Secondaries, also the potential of citadelling Cruisers with Secondaries is relevant (which sometimes does happen right now). On the other Hand, Cruisers are more safe by getting instablapped because of the longer reload. Removing the Citadel from Cruisers is out of the question because Cruiser vs Cruiser engagement would result in HE slinging, heavily nerfing RN CLs.

This would certainly require a mandatory tutorial for every player, probably the point where WG wouldnt consider it, because to me it seems, that they are hesitant to provide decent tutorials.

 

 

TL;DR

- BB Secondaries wont function automatically anymore

- Potentially make DDs invulnerable to high caliber shells / cut AP damage  in half (currently 1/10)

- Make BBs more accurate

- Increase the reload for BB main battery guns.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
665 posts
5,455 battles

Or we could simply remove all classes other then BBs and keep cruisers as food for them.

 

Making secondary's player aimed would make BBs essentially unbeatable at close range. And making the main batteries more accurate would not punish misplays by other BBs more considering that some BBs are essentially impossible to citadel for same tier BBs due to turtlebacks and submerged citadels. It would only make those idiotic angled citadel hits on dodging cruisers even more likely. Until something is done about the angled citadel hits, any increase to BB main battery accuracy is completely out of the question. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[L4GG]
Players
1,723 posts
6,833 battles
2 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

So, been thinking about some stuff, which seems to cause headache for certain ppl, atleast those who are active in Forums.

Ill be seperating those 2 issues mentioned in the Title

 

Deepwatertorpedoes

So, WG is somehow forcing DDs to use DWTs, but for me it feels like, it is shafting DD play too much. With PA-DDs around, i was fearing that ppl will play for their own sake and not for the team/game aka capping and spotting. Im not saying that it happens often, but ive seen PA-DDs do that. Hugging the mapbroder trying to flank so they can torp the ships in the back. Now they want to give Asashio DWTs with 20kms. Imo its totaly wrong. Some ppl will throw those Torps (potentially hitting they own teammates) from who knows where, just because they CAN. Same reason BB player sit at maxrange -because they can.

Do we need everyone to camp in the spawn nowadays?

 

So in general: I feel DWTs on DDs arent bad in general, but the current implementation isnt optimal.

One issue which would solve this, if DDs could switch Torps during the course of the match, like HE and AP shells. Why they dont do that? Im confused. They could easily implement a cptn skill for faster Torpedo reload, or just change the Expert loader that its working with Torps also.

 

Another thing that came to mind was, why not give certain Cruisers DWTs?

The best line for that would be Russian Cruisers imo. They have shortrange Torps which are very situational, and using them against BBs seems to be even more rare. So why not give russian Cruisers DWTs with ~8km range? The ones against BBs/CVs. Once again, this can be combined with the ability to switch torpedoes during the match.

Potentially for Kirov - Chapayev, because Svietlana has 5km torps which seems fine on T4 (lowtiers shouldnt have DWTs anyway), and Donskoi has 8km torps, which is fine also.

I could see them as usefull on other Cruisers aswell, maybe Yorck/Hipper, which could give them a little buff to performance.

 

TL;DR

- Being able to Switch during the game between Torps and DWTs.

- DWTs for some Cruisers which have currently lowrange Torps.

 

 

BB gameplay

 

Not sure how this will sound to some ppl, but i would like some other thoughts on that one also.

I think most ppl know how BBs are effecting the game. Boring to play at times, BB teammates who camp/snipe at maxrange, RNG is always a factor even in close combat...

There has been a lot of commenting on whether BBs should be more accurate, or even less accurate. Imo the less accurate they become, the more boring and frustrating they become to play. Even playing aggresive in a BB can be fatal when RNG is not favoring u. Or when it is, u blast a Cruiser to port from 20km. Inaccuracy doesnt solve anything imo. So id rather make them MORE accurate, which punishes bad aiming, but rewards good aiming on the other hand, and its also rewarding the target when he is evading the shot. This would especially be helpful in BB vs BB combat, because it would punish misplays more (BB showing broadside constantly because not getting punished enough)

At the same time, increase the reload. What? Make them even more boring to play u will ask? No, thats where the fun really starts:

BB Secondaries MUST be used by the player, and wont act as autoshooting guns at everything they can reach. So that means, if a BB player chooses to stay at maxrange, he can sit there and make a shot per minute (f.e.). But for BB player which play more aggressively, they can actively use secondaries against targets in their range, which makes them much more useful than they currently are. Secondary fire against other BBs is pretty useless, and is relying heavily on RNG for fires. Which is imo bad.

Ofc this would need a lot of balancing. Most BBs would need a substential buff to Secondaries, being Range/Reload/Accuracy. But they cant be as accurate as Cruiser guns, because they would potentially be OP then. Somewhere between current Manual AA dispersion and Cruiser dispersion.

This would give the potential to make main battery shells useless against DDs, which is currently being looked at by WG anyway as it seems to me (BB AP devastating DDs). Or make BB AP only overpen DDs for 5% of the max damage. So in order to fight of DDs, u need to become more active and use your secondaries yourself. Would increase the skill level needed for BBs, when u just can blap everything with Main battery guns, also if u want to be more active, get closer.

Im not entirely sure, how Cruisers would be effected by this, when a BB can actively engage them with main battery and Secondaries, also the potential of citadelling Cruisers with Secondaries is relevant (which sometimes does happen right now). On the other Hand, Cruisers are more safe by getting instablapped because of the longer reload. Removing the Citadel from Cruisers is out of the question because Cruiser vs Cruiser engagement would result in HE slinging, heavily nerfing RN CLs.

This would certainly require a mandatory tutorial for every player, probably the point where WG wouldnt consider it, because to me it seems, that they are hesitant to provide decent tutorials.

 

 

TL;DR

- BB Secondaries wont function automatically anymore

- Potentially make DDs invulnerable to high caliber shells / cut AP damage  in half (currently 1/10)

- Make BBs more accurate

- Increase the reload for BB main battery guns.

 

Just dropped by to say.

 

What about buddy?

 

regarding the BBs

 

tldr

No

Why?

Hell no.

And yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[FJAKA]
Players
1,991 posts
12,656 battles

Ru cruisers are he spamers from back. DWT on them world be ussles. On other hand giving IJN cruisers DWT that can hit only BBs with 15-20 km range world be good move

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
5,398 posts
6,787 battles
12 minutes ago, SovietFury43 said:

Making secondary's player aimed would make BBs essentially unbeatable at close range. And making the main batteries would not punish misplays by other BBs more considering that some BBs are essentially impossible to citadel for same tier BBs due to turtlebacks and submerged citadels. It would only make those idiotic angled citadel hits on dodging cruisers even more likely. Until something is done about the angled citadel hits, any increase to BB main battery accuracy is completely out of the question. 

Someone said, back before CBT as i recall, BBs actually were pretty accurate and played more aggressively. Then WG decided to nerf them, and they started to camp. I cant varify that, but it sounds logical. Imo thats a big problem, when u have to rely on RNG in close combat, otherwise u are dead.

Ofc secondaries cant be like little Cruisers strapped to the Side - but i think it would work. And id rather have BBs strong in close combat than strong from 20kms...

Shooting BBs at long ranges is far less rewarding than shooting Cruisers, because the guns are very inaccurate. Even when u aim good, u might end up with 5k damage.

 

1 hour ago, Butterdoll said:

What about buddy?

 

No

Why?

Hell no.

And yes.

 

Budyonny? What about it? I mean 4km torps arent that usefull.

- I would prefere to use secondaries manually rather than have "noob secondaries" which just shoot automatically.

- Makes only sense when u would have "manual" secondaries, so to releave the DDs from some stress agaisnt BB AP.

- As i said, i think its better than to make them even more inaccurate.

- Can only be done with some compensation. Otherwise BB gameplay would be even more boring.

 

53 minutes ago, 15JG52Adler said:

Ru cruisers are he spamers from back. DWT on them world be ussles. On other hand giving IJN cruisers DWT that can hit only BBs with 15-20 km range world be good move

 

So u say RU Cruisers have already useless torps (since they are only 4km). And then u have things like cyclone so they have to get closer. Even 6km KM Torps are much better than russians. And with the current meta u cant just go in even as a German Cruiser. In the end, yes, but so could a RU Cruiser with potential to be more a threat to BBs rather than spamming HE.

Overall, im not sure if Cruisers with 15-20km Torps would be a good thing, thats why i didnt consider other nations for DWTs. 10km DWTs on IJN Cruisers could maybe work out i guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,091 posts
2,423 battles
55 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Someone said, back before CBT as i recall, BBs actually were pretty accurate and played more aggressively. Then WG decided to nerf them, and they started to camp. I cant varify that, but it sounds logical. 

Correlation doesn't mean causation. Who's to say that they wouldn't do that already? Because I guess they would have done so. Especially with high accuracy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
5,398 posts
6,787 battles
3 minutes ago, stewie533 said:

Correlation doesn't mean causation. Who's to say that they wouldn't do that already? Because I guess they would have done so. Especially with high accuracy. 

 

Yes i know, its hard to say what WOULD have happened if it would have stayed the same. Currently i think most ppl will do it because they either see others do it, they dont get support, or they just feel safer doing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TOXIC]
Players
4,508 posts
11,466 battles
5 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

One issue which would solve this, if DDs could switch Torps during the course of the match, like HE and AP shells. Why they dont do that?

And why doesn't Minotaur get to swap AP and HE? The mechanics are literally there, no need to even implement something new, right?

 

The thing is: DWTs as they are now are extremely powerful. Torps that would otherwise be garbage (not that fast, not that good range, not that many and with pretty long cooldown) can become main armament of ships that already enjoy decent guns! Just because they're DWT. That concealment really is THAT much of a game-changer. They have just one weakness: they don't help in fighting enemy DDs. If it was possible to switch them in battle, you make this single demerit much less consequential - basically, it would be a tremendous buff to a ship line that's pretty powerful as it is

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[L4GG]
Players
1,723 posts
6,833 battles
56 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Budyonny? What about it? I mean 4km torps arent that usefull.

- I would prefere to use secondaries manually rather than have "noob secondaries" which just shoot automatically.

- Makes only sense when u would have "manual" secondaries, so to releave the DDs from some stress agaisnt BB AP.

- As i said, i think its better than to make them even more inaccurate.

- Can only be done with some compensation. Otherwise BB gameplay would be even more boring.

 

 

exactly, 8 kms torps would be so much easier to ambush/and to exit from a bad place. AHAHAHAH.

 

But you can have manually secondaries  but until you get them it's nice to have "noobs secondaries"

 

No, it's not.

I went to check your stats to check one thing.

You are also a cruiser main, your most (favourite?) ship it's a Fiji.

Well, not all of us got smoke and angling and timing it's all we got to survive, and we have to do it until a certain range because after that the armour stops working, but you know that already, Fiji it's not your only ship. 

Have you tried to stand your ground against a GC? It's the hardest one, all the others are easier.

 

And besides that chances nothing.

I had a game (one more among many) where I had to tank against two Bayerns after I supported our Fuso and sunk a RNBB and a dd, while the  Fuso was tucked away in a worm rock shooting only his forward guns.

 

Give them all (BBs) 30ish Knots speed and decent (faster) rudder speed.

That would solve the problem without stepping in the others classes capabilities/survivability's too much.

 

 

 

 

     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
5,398 posts
6,787 battles
2 minutes ago, eliastion said:

And why doesn't Minotaur get to swap AP and HE? The mechanics are literally there, no need to even implement something new, right?

 

The thing is: DWTs as they are now are extremely powerful. Torps that would otherwise be garbage (not that fast, not that good range, not that many and with pretty long cooldown) can become main armament of ships that already enjoy decent guns! Just because they're DWT. They have just one weakness: they don't help in fighting enemy DDs. If it was possible to switch them in battle, you make this single demerit much less consequential - basically, it would be a tremendous buff to a ship line that's pretty powerful as it is

 

Minotaur is OP with HE.

 

The problem in general with PA-DDs is exactly that: The enemy DD doesnt have to fear Torps from them. Yes, giving them both Torps would probably be bad just like that- but i dont think they are quite balanced anyway. And then there is a difference between DWTs on PA-DDs and DWTs for Asashio. One can hit Cruisers, the others cant. Pretty significant difference.

Overall thats why i think DWTs on DDs are plain bad. They promote bad play. I rather would see DWTs on CVs or as i mentioned Cruisers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[UNICS]
Players
431 posts
5,889 battles

First of all i don`t belive the problems of destroyer class lie in available torpedo types, however I`m positive for switching torpedo types during match depending on target.

 

Planning ahead is what DD`s are suppsoed to do.

 

Gunboat DD`s on the other hand may get exclusive access to (i.e.) AP, since AP rounds on torpedoboats are generally worthless anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
665 posts
5,455 battles
1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Someone said, back before CBT as i recall, BBs actually were pretty accurate and played more aggressively. Then WG decided to nerf them, and they started to camp. I cant varify that, but it sounds logical. Imo thats a big problem, when u have to rely on RNG in close combat, otherwise u are dead.

Ofc secondaries cant be like little Cruisers strapped to the Side - but i think it would work. And id rather have BBs strong in close combat than strong from 20kms...

Shooting BBs at long ranges is far less rewarding than shooting Cruisers, because the guns are very inaccurate. Even when u aim good, u might end up with 5k damage.

 

 

Budyonny? What about it? I mean 4km torps arent that usefull.

- I would prefere to use secondaries manually rather than have "noob secondaries" which just shoot automatically.

- Makes only sense when u would have "manual" secondaries, so to releave the DDs from some stress agaisnt BB AP.

- As i said, i think its better than to make them even more inaccurate.

- Can only be done with some compensation. Otherwise BB gameplay would be even more boring.

 

 

So u say RU Cruisers have already useless torps (since they are only 4km). And then u have things like cyclone so they have to get closer. Even 6km KM Torps are much better than russians. And with the current meta u cant just go in even as a German Cruiser. In the end, yes, but so could a RU Cruiser with potential to be more a threat to BBs rather than spamming HE.

Overall, im not sure if Cruisers with 15-20km Torps would be a good thing, thats why i didnt consider other nations for DWTs. 10km DWTs on IJN Cruisers could maybe work out i guess.

 

BBs played more aggressively back in CBT because the overall quality of players was miles better.

 

By that logic if anything, BBs in CBT should have camped and sniped even more then they do now. Back in CBT torpedoes were a reliable weapon, HE had a higher chance to cause fires and less chance to be eaten by AA guns, Carriers were present in every battle, BBs didn't have better AA then most cruisers and BBs didn't have Hydro and Radars, stealth fire was a relatively common tactic.

 

The reason most BB players today reach tier X and still have not the slightest idea of what they are doing is because Battleships bave become so forgiving as to be literally brainless to play (with some exceptions). BB mains don't learn the basic gameplay mechanics because they do not have to. It is ridiculous, the stupid crap that BBs can get away with these days. A couple of BBs chasing a lone Cruiser around the edge of the map for 10 minutes and taking pot shots at him, completely ignoring the objectives. Back in CBT idiot BB players that go off chasing a lone Cruiser around the map would have been punished by the enemy Carrier. Today, carriers practically no longer exist and even when they are in the game the high tier BBs have enough AA to defend themselves. And stupid BB players that do that kind of crap are not punished, but actually rewarded when the RNG gods inevitably smile on them and grant them that angled citadel hit or the Cruiser they have been chasing runs out of map space and is forced to turn and expose his citadel. And increasing main battery accuracy without addressing the random angled citadel hits would only make the situation worse, because more hits on the target overall means a higher chance to get that angled citadel hit. It would only make the average BB player camp even more and play the RNG lottery while completely disregarding the secondary's. 

 

Dumbing down of the game ALWAYS results in dumbing down of the players, because the average human tends not to use more brainpower then he/she feels is necessary to get the job done. Further buffing BBs would be like poring oil over the fire. The only way to fix the current situation would be to bring back the mechanics that were present in CBT. Bring back Carriers, make torpedoes a reliable weapon again, remove Hydro's and radar from BBs, nerf the [edited] turtlebacks and remove the underwater citadels.

 

But of course WG will never do that because BBs are the most attractive ships to casual players, and casual players are where the money is. So long as they keep bringing in the $$, WG could not care less if BB players push or sit in the back and snipe. The RN BB line is more proof of that then we could have ever asked for.

 

Edit: The simple reason why BBs today camp and snipe is because they can. Why the hell should he ever expose himself to danger when he can simply sit 20km away and play the RNG lottery, waiting to eventually be awarded a couple of angled citadel hits on some poor wretch Cruiser?

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
4,085 posts
7,025 battles
13 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

exactly, 8 kms torps would be so much easier to ambush/and to exit from a bad place. AHAHAHAH.

 

Who says you have to exit? I died many ties yoloing an enemy BB with RU CAs, just cuz I didnt manage to get into Torprange by the time they killed me. Atleast Id have the chance to trade 1-for-1 this way.

 

15 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

You are also a cruiser main, your most (favourite?) ship it's a Fiji.

 

I think his favorite is Hindenburg nowadays ^^

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
5,398 posts
6,787 battles
2 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

exactly, 8 kms torps would be so much easier to ambush/and to exit from a bad place. AHAHAHAH.

Actually, the difference between 4km and even 6km torps is significant - I know because my mainline is German Cruisers, and i play with someone who has Russian Cruisers as mainline.

Its almost certain death when u get to launch them against a BB. The longer the torprange, the less risky it is to launch them.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

But you can have manually secondaries  but until you get them it's nice to have "noobs secondaries"

Nah, i dont consider the cptn skill to be better than noob secondaries :Smile-_tongue:

It only requires me to select a ship before they start shooting, and in return they get more accurate.

 

2 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

I went to check your stats to check one thing.

You are also a cruiser main, your most (favourite?) ship it's a Fiji.

Well, not all of us got smoke and angling and timing it's all we got to survive, and we have to do it until a certain range because after that the armour stops working, but you know that already, Fiji it's not your only ship. 

Have you tried to stand your ground against a GC? It's the hardest one, all the others are easier.

Basicly its Takao, havent played Fiji that much anymore lately :fish_nerv:

Havent played that much against GCs... ive played with one tho :cap_haloween:If they would have slower reload, the chances of getting punished is much lower afterall.

F.e. the problem with BB accuracy, that even in close range it can be misses. Just recently i was Missouri, and had an oblivious Alabama (was a new guy like <200 battles), was showing consantly broadside to me getting closer all the time. And he was <10km all the time! First salvo... 6k damage.... 2nd salvo 9k. He turns, im perfectly angled nose in he deals 10k damage :Smile_amazed:. If he would get punished, he would learn what to do. Since he didnt get punished, he doesnt need to learn anything. And me shooting his broadside was as effective as he shooting my angled nose. And then on the other hand, u get a Yamato broadside 5+ Citadels he is dead instantly. Without consistency, skill means nothing.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

And besides that chances nothing.

I had a game (one more among many) where I had to tank against two Bayerns after I supported our Fuso and sunk a RNBB and a dd, while the  Fuso was tucked away in a worm rock shooting only his forward guns.

Sure, u will always have those kinda players.

 

2 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

Give them all (BBs) 30ish Knots speed and decent (faster) rudder speed.

That would solve the problem without stepping in the others classes capabilities/survivability's too much.    

Better rudder shift is imo the wrong way to go. That means punishing broadside is getting less likely since they can angle faster. If a BB is showing to much broadside he has to get punished too. Sadly, WG is going in the other direction with Turtleback, submerged Citadels... But afterall, the only way to hurt them is to hit more shells.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TOXIC]
Players
4,508 posts
11,466 battles
Just now, DFens_666 said:

Minotaur is OP with HE.

Aaand you answered yourself to the "why don't PA DDs get switchable torps" question, congratulations. Because...

 

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

The problem in general with PA-DDs is exactly that: The enemy DD doesnt have to fear Torps from them.

Why exactly having a weakness is a "problem"? They do well. Most if not all of them are good with their guns - lack of DD-threatening torps is a very situational disadvantage, unless you're stupid enough to smoke up and wait to be lol-rushed. All in all, PA DDs play a bit differently and they're a bit different as an opponent. I hardly see why not being exactly like other nations' DDs is a bad thing.

 

And Asashio? Well, it seems like it's going to be a unique gimmicky ship. A strange premium isn't really a good material for a general discussion about DW torps... And the fact that this premium will have zero cap-contesting potential beyond spotting? Well, we already have some silver Soviet "DDs" with cap-contesting potential of a cruiser. A premium that has the stealth but not firepower isn't all that different. Especially considering how unlikely the ship is going to be to gain popularity - after all, we're talking a vessel that has a clearly defined primary weapon... that's useless, by design, against half the enemy fleet (assuming that every match has a CV and 5 BBs, which isn't really the case). [edited]-ash is most likely to be a failure of a ship, but that doesn't mean there should be significant changes to how DWTs should be handled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HABIT]
Beta Tester
1,568 posts
6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

BB gameplay

 

Not sure how this will sound to some ppl, but i would like some other thoughts on that one also.

I think most ppl know how BBs are effecting the game. Boring to play at times, BB teammates who camp/snipe at maxrange, RNG is always a factor even in close combat...

There has been a lot of commenting on whether BBs should be more accurate, or even less accurate. Imo the less accurate they become, the more boring and frustrating they become to play. Even playing aggresive in a BB can be fatal when RNG is not favoring u. Or when it is, u blast a Cruiser to port from 20km. Inaccuracy doesnt solve anything imo. So id rather make them MORE accurate, which punishes bad aiming, but rewards good aiming on the other hand, and its also rewarding the target when he is evading the shot. This would especially be helpful in BB vs BB combat, because it would punish misplays more (BB showing broadside constantly because not getting punished enough)

At the same time, increase the reload. What? Make them even more boring to play u will ask? No, thats where the fun really starts:

BB Secondaries MUST be used by the player, and wont act as autoshooting guns at everything they can reach. So that means, if a BB player chooses to stay at maxrange, he can sit there and make a shot per minute (f.e.). But for BB player which play more aggressively, they can actively use secondaries against targets in their range, which makes them much more useful than they currently are. Secondary fire against other BBs is pretty useless, and is relying heavily on RNG for fires. Which is imo bad.

Ofc this would need a lot of balancing. Most BBs would need a substential buff to Secondaries, being Range/Reload/Accuracy. But they cant be as accurate as Cruiser guns, because they would potentially be OP then. Somewhere between current Manual AA dispersion and Cruiser dispersion.

This would give the potential to make main battery shells useless against DDs, which is currently being looked at by WG anyway as it seems to me (BB AP devastating DDs). Or make BB AP only overpen DDs for 5% of the max damage. So in order to fight of DDs, u need to become more active and use your secondaries yourself. Would increase the skill level needed for BBs, when u just can blap everything with Main battery guns, also if u want to be more active, get closer.

Im not entirely sure, how Cruisers would be effected by this, when a BB can actively engage them with main battery and Secondaries, also the potential of citadelling Cruisers with Secondaries is relevant (which sometimes does happen right now). On the other Hand, Cruisers are more safe by getting instablapped because of the longer reload. Removing the Citadel from Cruisers is out of the question because Cruiser vs Cruiser engagement would result in HE slinging, heavily nerfing RN CLs.

This would certainly require a mandatory tutorial for every player, probably the point where WG wouldnt consider it, because to me it seems, that they are hesitant to provide decent tutorials.

 

While I am with you on some points like making BBs more accurate to make long range sniping against evading targets harder while preventing short range "my shots go everyone but on target" situations and that the damage output of BB AP against DDs sometimes is too high, I just can't imagine how BBs will and could play with an even longer reload time "balanced" with a buffed but manually controlled secondary battery. It seems like it needs a lot of tweaking up to the point that is impossible without substantially altering already existing ships to somehow make it work. Especially in cases where the secondary battery is nearly non-existent. The problems I also see are:

 

- Bad firing angles on secondaries, especially of lower tier BBs with secondary guns in the hull. This will lead to either having more BBs showing broadside to maximize their damage output which makes them more vulnerable (something which usually distinguishes the noob or newby from the better player) or BBs doing a lot less damage.

- Making secondaries manually controlled will lead to more micro-management (switching between armaments, targets and visual fields) if you want to make them work which is something that leads to more frustration/stress and already drives people away from (high tier) CVs.

- Secondaries are prone to get disabled quite fast under HE fire which is what we already have a lot of. So, players who are actually pushing or give close range support are left in the middle of the match with an half HP BB and one minute reload and without any secondary support because they did what they were supposed to do: tanking. They lose the necessary damage output quite fast.

- BBs will only be able to use a comparably small amount of their secondaries effectively (a bit over half at most) because of the manual control. I.e. you can't shoot several targets on different sides of your ship simultaneously (given: this already is a scenario you don't want to be in in the first place)

- Secondaries will lose the "proximity warning effect" which means they won't open fire on enemies which are out of your field of vision and which you might miss otherwise.

- Which initial situation do you want to use to balance the secondary guns in your new system? My guess is WG would try to give them a certain (theoretical) damage output (DPS or DPM) at X km which can be balanced by maximum range, accuracy/dispersion/sigma and reload time of the secondary guns. But how many do you want to take into account for that? Do you take all guns available on the ship although not all can shoot at a target simultaneously? Do you consider a broadside (usually a bit more than half of all guns)? Do you take a certain percentage of guns into account which will be shown when the ship is angled 45° to the target? I hope you understand what I mean. The damage output you want to balance heavily relies on if the BB captain wants to keep his ship alive as long as possible by angling the right way and sacrifizing a lot of (read: about 50% of his overall) firepower or if he goes full broadside.

- What is your opinion on ammunition choice? As it is now every secondary gun can only use one type which makes some of them more powerful than others. AP as secondary battery ammunition in general doesn't do much and HE at least can set fires. Should the player be able to switch or lieve with what WG gives him?

 

 

21 minutes ago, SovietFury43 said:

And increasing main battery accuracy without addressing the random angled citadel hits would only make the situation worse, because more hits on the target overall means a higher chance to get that angled citadel hit. It would only make the average BB player camp even more and play the RNG lottery while completely disregarding the secondary's. 

I think you miss the point of what an increased accuracy on sniping BBs should do. There are always two sides when a ship gets shot at. One is the shooter who uses his marksman skills (or not) to try and hit the target or at least tries to bring his shots as close as possible. The other side is the CA who uses his evasive skills (or not) to try and dodge. As it is now the dispersion which neither can influence will lead to stray shells which will hit ships even if they try to evade. If you decrease the dispersion the risk of getting hit (and citadelled) by stray shell on higher ranges is greatly reduced for player who actively dodge incoming salvoes while players with a good aim also get advantages. However, good BB players are usually not found sniping at 20 km anyway. On the other hand, bad CA players who don't dodge will be punished and bad BB players will have a harder time to hit (good) players at 20 km because of the shell travel time and the lowered dispersion which leads to less stray shells on evading targets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
665 posts
5,455 battles
53 minutes ago, Tungstonid said:

I think you miss the point of what an increased accuracy on sniping BBs should do. There are always two sides when a ship gets shot at. One is the shooter who uses his marksman skills (or not) to try and hit the target or at least tries to bring his shots as close as possible. The other side is the CA who uses his evasive skills (or not) to try and dodge. As it is now the dispersion which neither can influence will lead to stray shells which will hit ships even if they try to evade. If you decrease the dispersion the risk of getting hit (and citadelled) by stray shell on higher ranges is greatly reduced for player who actively dodge incoming salvoes while players with a good aim also get advantages. However, good BB players are usually not found sniping at 20 km anyway. On the other hand, bad CA players who don't dodge will be punished and bad BB players will have a harder time to hit (good) players at 20 km because of the shell travel time and the lowered dispersion which leads to less stray shells on evading targets.

 

I do understand that. But the problem with that is that in order to achieve that kind of balance you would need to give BBs close to Cruiser level accuracy. Which would just again be even more OP then stray angled citadel hits, especially with at least 5 BBs per team on average. 

 

You are weaving in your Cruiser, dodging and trying not to give the enemy BB in front of you a clear shot only to suddenly get instantly deleted by 5 laser accurate citadel hits from another enemy BB all the way to your right. A competent Cruiser player will be able to dodge salvos from one BB, not from two BBs with pinpoint accuracy. Hell, with that kind of accuracy a BB would not even need to hit your citadel, he could kill you in three salvos simply with about half of his salvos being normal penetrations. And it would also create a problem with DDs getting instagibbed by sudden pinpoint accurate BB salvos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
5,398 posts
6,787 battles
2 hours ago, SovietFury43 said:

The reason most BB players today reach tier X and still have not the slightest idea of what they are doing is because Battleships bave become so forgiving as to be literally brainless to play (with some exceptions). BB mains don't learn the basic gameplay mechanics because they do not have to. It is ridiculous, the stupid crap that BBs can get away with these days. A couple of BBs chasing a lone Cruiser around the edge of the map for 10 minutes and taking pot shots at him, completely ignoring the objectives. Back in CBT idiot BB players that go off chasing a lone Cruiser around the map would have been punished by the enemy Carrier. Today, carriers practically no longer exist and even when they are in the game the high tier BBs have enough AA to defend themselves. And stupid BB players that do that kind of crap are not punished, but actually rewarded when the RNG gods inevitably smile on them and grant them that angled citadel hit or the Cruiser they have been chasing runs out of map space and is forced to turn and expose his citadel. And increasing main battery accuracy without addressing the random angled citadel hits would only make the situation worse, because more hits on the target overall means a higher chance to get that angled citadel hit. It would only make the average BB player camp even more and play the RNG lottery while completely disregarding the secondary's. 

As @Tungstonid said, u are basicly contradicting yourself in this one. Either they aim badly and get rewarded with a stray citadel, or they aim perfectly and blap a Cruiser - which one is it now?

I feel when i play BB i shouldnt get rewarded when a target is dodging my salvo. Most recently i got almost 9k on a Shima which was turning at the right moment, but the dispersion was so "awful" that 2 shells penetrated his Bow.

The inaccuracy of BBs is whats making them almost useless against BBs in longer range combat. U can hit 3 shells on a Cruiser at 20km and they can all be citadels because they plunge at the right spot. Same shells hitting a BB might result in 0k, 1k overpen or 5k Pen+Overpen. Extremely Rarely ive gotten 20-40k against enemy BBs at 20km. Mainly its because not enough shells will hit the target.

 

 

2 hours ago, SovietFury43 said:

Dumbing down of the game ALWAYS results in dumbing down of the players, because the average human tends not to use more brainpower then he/she feels is necessary to get the job done. Further buffing BBs would be like poring oil over the fire. The only way to fix the current situation would be to bring back the mechanics that were present in CBT. Bring back Carriers, make torpedoes a reliable weapon again, remove Hydro's and radar from BBs, nerf the [edited] turtlebacks and remove the underwater citadels.

Yes, your points are valid - but WG wont do it. we have to admit the facts. They wont nerf Premium ships (Radar on Missouri, Black) Hydro (Loyang) f.e. So the only thing i think is possible, to change other stuff. Adding more gimmicks to the game is imo the wrong way also.

Actually id consider making BBs more accurate and having to use Secondaries against DDs a step into a more skillfull BB play - not making them easier. If u have more accurate BBs, BBs can punish each other better. Thats exactly the worst part of having so much RNG in the dispersion. Cruiser showing Broadside, probably even turning is easy to punish - BBs arent. Ofc there are turtleback and submerged citadels to blame for aswell, but its only half of it. U can kill a Cruiser with 2 Citadels + some extra hits. Hitting the Citadel of a BB is still harder, and they need more hits to die anyway.

 

2 hours ago, SovietFury43 said:

Edit: The simple reason why BBs today camp and snipe is because they can. Why the hell should he ever expose himself to danger when he can simply sit 20km away and play the RNG lottery, waiting to eventually be awarded a couple of angled citadel hits on some poor wretch Cruiser?

Yep, i know. Thats why i hate the French BBs when i see the range from them...

 

2 hours ago, eliastion said:

Why exactly having a weakness is a "problem"? They do well. Most if not all of them are good with their guns - lack of DD-threatening torps is a very situational disadvantage, unless you're stupid enough to smoke up and wait to be lol-rushed. All in all, PA DDs play a bit differently and they're a bit different as an opponent. I hardly see why not being exactly like other nations' DDs is a bad thing.

What is doing well? The competent DD players who mostly are around currently? The noobs will catch up at some point, and they will play shitty because they think they should do it, since they "cant" cap/torp the enemy DD. Ive seen stupid PA-DDs who did nothing but to go around and torp the ships in spawn, while completely ignoring their own team. Granted, other DDs do that aswell, but it seems to happen less often.

Imo its a bad thing because ppl will use that as an excuse to play selfishly.

 

1 hour ago, Tungstonid said:

- Bad firing angles on secondaries, especially of lower tier BBs with secondary guns in the hull. This will lead to either having more BBs showing broadside to maximize their damage output which makes them more vulnerable (something which usually distinguishes the noob or newby from the better player) or BBs doing a lot less damage.

- Making secondaries manually controlled will lead to more micro-management (switching between armaments, targets and visual fields) if you want to make them work which is something that leads to more frustration/stress and already drives people away from (high tier) CVs.

- Secondaries are prone to get disabled quite fast under HE fire which is what we already have a lot of. So, players who are actually pushing or give close range support are left in the middle of the match with an half HP BB and one minute reload and without any secondary support because they did what they were supposed to do: tanking. They lose the necessary damage output quite fast.

- BBs will only be able to use a comparably small amount of their secondaries effectively (a bit over half at most) because of the manual control. I.e. you can't shoot several targets on different sides of your ship simultaneously (given: this already is a scenario you don't want to be in in the first place)

- Secondaries will lose the "proximity warning effect" which means they won't open fire on enemies which are out of your field of vision and which you might miss otherwise.

- Which initial situation do you want to use to balance the secondary guns in your new system? My guess is WG would try to give them a certain (theoretical) damage output (DPS or DPM) at X km which can be balanced by maximum range, accuracy/dispersion/sigma and reload time of the secondary guns. But how many do you want to take into account for that? Do you take all guns available on the ship although not all can shoot at a target simultaneously? Do you consider a broadside (usually a bit more than half of all guns)? Do you take a certain percentage of guns into account which will be shown when the ship is angled 45° to the target? I hope you understand what I mean. The damage output you want to balance heavily relies on if the BB captain wants to keep his ship alive as long as possible by angling the right way and sacrifizing a lot of (read: about 50% of his overall) firepower or if he goes full broadside.

- What is your opinion on ammunition choice? As it is now every secondary gun can only use one type which makes some of them more powerful than others. AP as secondary battery ammunition in general doesn't do much and HE at least can set fires. Should the player be able to switch or lieve with what WG gives him?

 

 

1. Yes, been thinking about that aswell (lowtier BBs). But some of them have good secondaries currently (Nassau), so i dont think it would be impossible to be balanced.

2. Could aswell be to click a Button like switching between Ammo/Torps. I dont even think u need a different visual field for that. I feel BBs are pretty dull as they are, so for me personaly id like if i could to more in between.

3. Buff Secondary HP? But i feel Secondaries can handle much more than AA can, and the MOdule in first slot (forgot the name) does help the Secondaries to withstand more hits.

4. There are very few BBs which can shoot at both sides with their mainguns at the same time. (only lowtier germans i think?) And once u have Manual Secondaries, only one side will shoot anyway. Basicly with self-controled secoondaries, u can engage a target on the side where your mainguns are not facing, easier/better than right now.

5. Well, id call l2p on that one? :Smile-_tongue:

6. Isnt it like with f.e. NC, Iowa, Missouri, Yamato, where u have 66% of your firepower in the front. Use them, or risk using the backgun aswell in return to receive more damage. 50% Sounds reasonable.

7. Yes, i was thinking about that aswell, but wasnt sure about that. Not sure if AP/HE switching should be implemented, but it would ofc be the best choice balancing wise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HABIT]
Beta Tester
1,568 posts
5 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

1. Yes, been thinking about that aswell (lowtier BBs). But some of them have good secondaries currently (Nassau), so i dont think it would be impossible to be balanced.

2. Could aswell be to click a Button like switching between Ammo/Torps. I dont even think u need a different visual field for that. I feel BBs are pretty dull as they are, so for me personaly id like if i could to more in between.

3. Buff Secondary HP? But i feel Secondaries can handle much more than AA can, and the MOdule in first slot (forgot the name) does help the Secondaries to withstand more hits.

4. There are very few BBs which can shoot at both sides with their mainguns at the same time. (only lowtier germans i think?) And once u have Manual Secondaries, only one side will shoot anyway. Basicly with self-controled secoondaries, u can engage a target on the side where your mainguns are not facing, easier/better than right now.

5. Well, id call l2p on that one? :Smile-_tongue:

6. Isnt it like with f.e. NC, Iowa, Missouri, Yamato, where u have 66% of your firepower in the front. Use them, or risk using the backgun aswell in return to receive more damage. 50% Sounds reasonable.

7. Yes, i was thinking about that aswell, but wasnt sure about that. Not sure if AP/HE switching should be implemented, but it would ofc be the best choice balancing wise.

2. This is what I had in mind, too. However, the point with more micro-management still stands. Example: While I will shoot at another BB with my main guns, I won't waste my secondary shells on them because I can't penetrate most of the armour anyway, hence a nearby DD or CA might be a better choice which in turn might be on the opposite side from the enemy BB

3. From what I see on my Yamato, even the 155mm gun turrets get knocked out regularly although they should be better armoured than the 127 mm DP guns. So it might depend on the BB and type of secondary gun (secondaries in the casemate for example might be harder to knock out) but overall I think they don't have that much more armour and HP compared to AA.

4. I wasn't referring to main guns but secondary guns. In the current state you can theoretically use all secondaries at once against targets on different sides of your ship (as long as you haven't set the Manual Secondary skill and again, this is not a scenario you want to be in anyway) which, under your suggested system - will either be hard to hold up because you have to switch a lot between targets and field of visions or it will be impossible/not efficient to do so.

5. True, although it is a nice little help from time to time. :Smile_smile:

6. It actually is worse than that. To keep the Yamato as an example: The current system allows you to have 66% of your (manually controlled) firepower directed at your enemy when bow-tanking/angling while secondaries are a nice firework making a fire from time to time, so nothing to really rely on. With your system you want to split the damage output between main guns and secondary guns and I assume you want to keep about the same damage output which means - since you half the output by the main guns by doubling the reload time - the secondary guns have to make up for the other 50%? Under this assumption (and you can correct me if you had other things in mind) the main guns of the Yamato will make up 50% of the firepower in total which will result in usable 33% when angling. However, when bow tanking you can use the least amount of secondary guns (I guess it is not more than one third, rather less), resulting in 16% additional firepower, resulting in about 50% or less usable manually controlled firepower overall when bow-tanking. Showing full broadside will give you over 75% (50% main guns + a bit over 25% for secondary guns). I hope you can follow my estimation from how I understand your proposal. This number of cause shrink over the course of the battle because of disabled secondary guns etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[FJAKA]
Players
1,991 posts
12,656 battles

4 km, 6 km, 8 km torps on cruisers with 12+ km stealth are defensive or desperate tools (leeerooooyyyy).

DWT on cruiser, in my opinion, should be offensive tool. much longer range, or at least 10 km for IJN.

If they can hit only BBs they will pass by DD and Cruiser and will be visible.....eaven IJN cruisers can not flank as DD and go for surprize flank torp run so most of them are launched frontally and spoting possibility is great.

 

i think we need offensive torpedoes as playstyle and not only opportunity runs on one branch of cruisers (RN i can not count even they can stealthtorp) and IJN (long lances) are perfect for that.

 

And one more counter to BBs is always good thing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TOXIC]
Players
4,508 posts
11,466 battles
9 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

What is doing well? The competent DD players who mostly are around currently? The noobs will catch up at some point, and they will play shitty because they think they should do it, since they "cant" cap/torp the enemy DD. Ive seen stupid PA-DDs who did nothing but to go around and torp the ships in spawn, while completely ignoring their own team. Granted, other DDs do that aswell, but it seems to happen less often.

Imo its a bad thing because ppl will use that as an excuse to play selfishly.

Oh, noes. Bad players play badly. We must remove ships from the game because as long as there are any playable ships, bad players will play badly.

 

PA DDs are a strong branch. And a player that won't get anywhere near caps in a PA DD because he can't torp other DDs wouldn't be any more useful in IJN (my guns suck, I'm not a knife fighter) or USN (I get outspotted by IJN DDs) either. If anything, PA DDs are actually more forgiving, because a useless idiot that only fires torps at aim indicator without thinking beforehand has a much better chance of landing hits with DWTs - not to mention the extremely forgiving smoke where you can pretty much permasmoke on your own and/or waste a smoke charge without being hurt by that too much.

 

You have your own preconceptions and you desperately look for any and all evidence that would support it - but the reality is that there's not a single tier where PA DDs underperform - not only on the high tiers that are still a bit of an elite club for the relatively new line. Please, do face reality. Or, if you're so convinced that their performance is going to drop sharply - wait until it does and then start complaining that their armament needs huge buffs. For now this is just a groundless whine that boils down to - certainly true but not terribly useful - conclusion that "bad players don't use abilities of these ships well".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
665 posts
5,455 battles
9 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

As @Tungstonid said, u are basicly contradicting yourself in this one. Either they aim badly and get rewarded with a stray citadel, or they aim perfectly and blap a Cruiser - which one is it now?

I feel when i play BB i shouldnt get rewarded when a target is dodging my salvo. Most recently i got almost 9k on a Shima which was turning at the right moment, but the dispersion was so "awful" that 2 shells penetrated his Bow.

The inaccuracy of BBs is whats making them almost useless against BBs in longer range combat. U can hit 3 shells on a Cruiser at 20km and they can all be citadels because they plunge at the right spot. Same shells hitting a BB might result in 0k, 1k overpen or 5k Pen+Overpen. Extremely Rarely ive gotten 20-40k against enemy BBs at 20km. Mainly its because not enough shells will hit the target.

 

What i am saying is that you can not prevent such [edited] random hits by buffing BB accuracy, because in order to achieve that kind of balance BBs would have to have almost Cruiser lavel accuracy which would again be unfair, only in a different way. 

 

In order to fix those [edited] angled hits, the empty bow and aft sections of ships would need to be fixed first. Most angled citadel hits happen when a BB AP shell overpenetrates the aft section armor of a ship, passes freely through the empty aft section of a ship, hits the citadel armor, arms the fuse and detonates inside the citadel. The simple and only real way to prevent that from happening is for aft sections of ALL ships to be fixed so they are no longer empty voids, so shells can no longer freely pass through them on their way to the citadel. It would also make the game more realistic as an added bonus.

 

Buffing BB accuracy will only further promote more max range sniping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
5,398 posts
6,787 battles
3 hours ago, Tungstonid said:

2. This is what I had in mind, too. However, the point with more micro-management still stands. Example: While I will shoot at another BB with my main guns, I won't waste my secondary shells on them because I can't penetrate most of the armour anyway, hence a nearby DD or CA might be a better choice which in turn might be on the opposite side from the enemy BB

3. From what I see on my Yamato, even the 155mm gun turrets get knocked out regularly although they should be better armoured than the 127 mm DP guns. So it might depend on the BB and type of secondary gun (secondaries in the casemate for example might be harder to knock out) but overall I think they don't have that much more armour and HP compared to AA.

4. I wasn't referring to main guns but secondary guns. In the current state you can theoretically use all secondaries at once against targets on different sides of your ship (as long as you haven't set the Manual Secondary skill and again, this is not a scenario you want to be in anyway) which, under your suggested system - will either be hard to hold up because you have to switch a lot between targets and field of visions or it will be impossible/not efficient to do so.

5. True, although it is a nice little help from time to time. :Smile_smile:

6. It actually is worse than that. To keep the Yamato as an example: The current system allows you to have 66% of your (manually controlled) firepower directed at your enemy when bow-tanking/angling while secondaries are a nice firework making a fire from time to time, so nothing to really rely on. With your system you want to split the damage output between main guns and secondary guns and I assume you want to keep about the same damage output which means - since you half the output by the main guns by doubling the reload time - the secondary guns have to make up for the other 50%? Under this assumption (and you can correct me if you had other things in mind) the main guns of the Yamato will make up 50% of the firepower in total which will result in usable 33% when angling. However, when bow tanking you can use the least amount of secondary guns (I guess it is not more than one third, rather less), resulting in 16% additional firepower, resulting in about 50% or less usable manually controlled firepower overall when bow-tanking. Showing full broadside will give you over 75% (50% main guns + a bit over 25% for secondary guns). I hope you can follow my estimation from how I understand your proposal. This number of cause shrink over the course of the battle because of disabled secondary guns etc.

2. Well, also depends on the implementation. It would ofc be harder to angle to the opposite side when u are fighting a DD on the other. But currently BBs are my least favorite target for secondaries anyway.

3. Maybe... feels like Bismarck secondaries can pack a punch.

4. Ok, misunderstood that one. But u said it yourself - its not a place u want to be in anyway.

6. The possible increase in damage by more accurate guns has to be taken into consideration aswell. When im able to achieve more damage with my mainguns per salvo (but less overall DPM), then the secondaries wont need to make up for 50% of damage, but maybe only 25-33%, or even less!

 

 

1 hour ago, 15JG52Adler said:

4 km, 6 km, 8 km torps on cruisers with 12+ km stealth are defensive or desperate tools (leeerooooyyyy).

DWT on cruiser, in my opinion, should be offensive tool. much longer range, or at least 10 km for IJN.

If they can hit only BBs they will pass by DD and Cruiser and will be visible.....eaven IJN cruisers can not flank as DD and go for surprize flank torp run so most of them are launched frontally and spoting possibility is great.

 i think we need offensive torpedoes as playstyle and not only opportunity runs on one branch of cruisers (RN i can not count even they can stealthtorp) and IJN (long lances) are perfect for that.

 And one more counter to BBs is always good thing

Thats kinda the problem with DWTs - ppl will spot them even when they dont get hit by them. Im still not sure if this is a good or a bad thing. BBs without Hydro would severely get shafted by that. And where would be the cut by spotting them? PLanes yes, DDs no?

But maybe you are right - Hightier Cruiser players are imo a bit better than DD/BB player (thats how i see it), so they would make better use of DWTs than DDs?

 

 

16 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Oh, noes. Bad players play badly. We must remove ships from the game because as long as there are any playable ships, bad players will play badly.

 

PA DDs are a strong branch. And a player that won't get anywhere near caps in a PA DD because he can't torp other DDs wouldn't be any more useful in IJN (my guns suck, I'm not a knife fighter) or USN (I get outspotted by IJN DDs) either. If anything, PA DDs are actually more forgiving, because a useless idiot that only fires torps at aim indicator without thinking beforehand has a much better chance of landing hits with DWTs - not to mention the extremely forgiving smoke where you can pretty much permasmoke on your own and/or waste a smoke charge without being hurt by that too much.

 

You have your own preconceptions and you desperately look for any and all evidence that would support it - but the reality is that there's not a single tier where PA DDs underperform - not only on the high tiers that are still a bit of an elite club for the relatively new line. Please, do face reality. Or, if you're so convinced that their performance is going to drop sharply - wait until it does and then start complaining that their armament needs huge buffs. For now this is just a groundless whine that boils down to - certainly true but not terribly useful - conclusion that "bad players don't use abilities of these ships well".

I dont know where u think that i want to hugely buff PA-DDs?

Lets clear thinks up a bit: I think several PA-DDs are OP currently (Gajdah Madah being the number 1). Id gladly nerf them in some points and give them the ability to Switch Torps. But its not so much about them afterall. I think WG will release more DDs with DWTs - and when they limit them more and more, then the possibility to switch Torps is needed imo. Maybe not for PA-DDs - but might be for others. Maybe im overreacting and got unlucky with PA-DDs playing like crap.

And if Cruisers, like in my opening post, were to receive DWTs, i think they would benefit from the possibility to switch Torps during the battle - maybe i wasnt clear enough on that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HOO]
Players
1,312 posts
2,871 battles
12 hours ago, SovietFury43 said:

The reason most BB players today reach tier X and still have not the slightest idea of what they are doing is because Battleships bave become so forgiving as to be literally brainless to play (with some exceptions). BB mains don't learn the basic gameplay mechanics because they do not have to.

^This^

The game rewards failure, you can learn nothing and fail your way up the tiers. And not just in BB's although it's by far the easiest class to fail your way up in.

 

@OP I don't think making BB's more accurate overall is one of the answers. What I'd like to see is .....

 

Change the dispersion mechanic, so that it is not a linear progression from min to max range. Rather make it some sort of exponential progression where dispersion gets much worse the closer to max range you are, and make dispersion worse at max range. This would reward players that pushed or at least moved up and supported their team. Also improve the survivability of crusiers at mid to high tiers, and give them a purpose in the game again. At the moment cruiser play at mid tier and above is very unforgiving, one mistake usually means death. From a learning point of view that's great, if you are prepared to learn from your mistake. The problem is trying to angle yourself against so many heavy hitting enemy BB's. Once you are spotted its very difficult, so concealment modules or skill are pretty much non optional equipment, but they only help to a point. Also fix Hydro and Radar so that they use line of sight rules too. Radar and hydro working through terrain is just wrong, we have LoS for ships spottng each other, apply it to Hydro and Radar, so that players that try to use the terrain to work their way in can, and the strategies of good positioning to control channels and waterways to objectives has a role in the game again. 

 

Allowing ships to switch between DWP and standard torps would be problematic from a balance point of view. DWP boats have inferior guns, boats with poor standard torps have better guns (generally). How WG could balance ships that could fire DWP torps alongside standard ones, and shoot guns too, I just don't see it happening

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TOXIC]
Players
4,508 posts
11,466 battles
3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I think WG will release more DDs with DWTs - and when they limit them more and more, then the possibility to switch Torps is needed imo.

Well. For now you're arguing for something that MIGHT be needed one day in the hazy speculative future, probably no sooner than a couple years from now. If ever...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×