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DFens_666

So WG, i thought this shouldnt happen?

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Picture says more than 1000 words

shot-18_02_02_01_55.12-0164.thumb.jpg.6ae691fa69b22b085c19f8a6577249f3.jpg

 

Obviously 2 T5 CV Divisions are "fail" Divisions nowadays :cap_hmm:

Basicly everyone was baffled at that MM...

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Eh unless im wrong and tier 5 cvs have protected mm as well isnt this normal since mm is +2-2 usually?

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T5 CVs cannot meet T7 CVs.

T5 BBs can meet T7 CVs.

 

As the division system always takes the least favorable MM rules into account T5 divisions can meet T7 CVs.

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7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

T5 CVs cannot meet T7 CVs.

T5 BBs can meet T7 CVs.

 

As the division system always takes the least favorable MM rules into account T5 divisions can meet T7 CVs.

 

If so, shouldnt it happen more often then? like all the time... yet, everyone was equally baffled as i said. I think first time i ever saw that.

Oh i spot the mistake - the enemy CV was also in a Division, THEN it makes more sense i guess. Since he cant throw him under the bus otherwise.

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19 minutes ago, pra3y said:

Eh unless im wrong and tier 5 cvs have protected mm as well isnt this normal since mm is +2-2 usually?

 

Actually T5 CVs do have protected MM, as they cant see T7 ships in general i believe?

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19 minutes ago, pra3y said:

Eh unless im wrong and tier 5 cvs have protected mm as well isnt this normal since mm is +2-2 usually?

 

This case is brought up because

 

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

T5 CVs cannot meet T7 CVs.

T5 BBs can meet T7 CVs.

 

those are the times, when you really curse WG for removing manual attacks. Needless to say - our T VII was useless? And on top of that - I got insulted for beeing a "dirty sealclubber". :cap_fainting:WoWs at its best.

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t5 CV in a division effectively is always a faildivision :cap_haloween: Great fun each time you go up against a Saipan :cap_like:

 

You just need 2x t5 CVs in divisions queuing up at the same time.

8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Actually T5 CVs do have protected MM, as they cant see T7 ships in general i believe?

Just t7 CVs - afaik  DDs, CA/Ls and BBs are "fair game".

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39 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

If so, shouldnt it happen more often then?

 

I should clarify that I meant divisions specifically. As in you need another T5 CV division for this to happen. When you only have one MM tries to ignore your preferential MM, but it cannot ignore the opposing T5 CV who is not in a division.

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

I should clarify that I meant divisions specifically. As in you need another T5 CV division for this to happen. When you only have one MM tries to ignore your preferential MM, but it cannot ignore the T5 CV who is not in a division.

 

I just have to say, the conclusion of this would be: is: dont team up with a T5 CV as a T5. Imagine, I would have taken a T4 BB.... An actual fail division would be better of. Even if there is the same type of fail division in the queue - whats the worst thing, that could happen? T6. Or did I miss something?

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22 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

I just have to say, the conclusion of this would be: is: dont team up with a T5 CV as a T5. Imagine, I would have taken a T4 BB.... An actual fail division would be better of. Even if there is the same type of fail division in the queue - whats the worst thing, that could happen? T6. Or did I miss something?

Well, here are your choices - div up with a t5 and end up fighting a t7 CV, div up with a t4 and end up with a t4 ship in t7 game, or simply never div up as a t5 CV

 

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Ironic, isn't it?

Pretty much

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49 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

I just have to say, the conclusion of this would be: is: dont team up with a T5 CV as a T5. Imagine, I would have taken a T4 BB.... An actual fail division would be better of. Even if there is the same type of fail division in the queue - whats the worst thing, that could happen? T6. Or did I miss something?

Or just acept that you het into a crap game even then since while a div up can see T7 games. if div up it requies another div with a T5 CV wich means if there is none the BB gets the protected MM of the CV. WoWS is a Teamgame you can hardly forbid someone to play with a friend and they even too the same tir ships,

 

Certainly not as bad as a T8/9 BB Teaming up with a one tir lower CV garantiring that his AA is most likely to deal with anything the enemy CV can throw at him alone.......

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2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

 And on top of that - I got insulted for beeing a "dirty sealclubber".

 

I hope you told them that they were wrong as you'd had a shower before the match :)

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30 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Yeah, pretty much.

Ironic, isn't it?

 

Absolutly. WG - are you reading this?

 

19 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

or simply never div up as a t5 CV

 

I think, this really sums it up. You cant really "win" in this constalation, so to say...

 

3 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

WoWS is a Teamgame you can hardly forbid someone to play with a friend and they even too the same tir ships,

 

Well. Basically, one of the enemys threw exactly this argument at me. And directly at me; you´d think he would target my CV-Divisionmate, right? Well, maybe cuz I shot down 15 of his p2w-planes and hit his precious CV with my shells. Oh crap, was that naming? :cap_yes:

No, but seriously. You might think this is a whine-thread, but we are trying to get somewhere here. There was another topic only a few days ago about divisions + CV, where the point was "CV Division OP". Here we see the other side of the medal. I´d like to see the people, that usualy show up in CV topics, saying, a CV will oneshot any target he wants, to come here and ask @DFens_666 and the red T5 CV about their experiance in this match. Discussion about CVs are hard. Some ppl will show up, blaming CVs for starvation & the next World Wars to come - some ppl come in, and will defend their favourite class no matter what, cuz they know about their strenghts. Its hard to find a common ground to discuss and admit, that CVs have very strong points while having really shortcomings at the same time.

 

And Ive always said, that the current MM rules for CVs are wrong. CVs need to have a +/-1 rule and it needs to take divisions into account. This is not a statement for or against CVs - it goes both ways. A T8 CV is useless in a T10 game, while the very same T8 CV has the time of his life in a mostly T6 game. A +/-1 mm rule for CVs (+division) wouldnt even cause really problems, unless I miss something. A T6 CV can still be placed in a T5-T7 range, like current MM would do anyway. This, however, needs to stay:

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

As the division system always takes the least favorable MM rules into account T5 divisions can meet T7 CVs.

else you could abuse the system by picking, say T6 CV + 2x T7 ships and you would be guaranteed T5-T7 range.

@MrConway @Tuccy please take notice of this discussion. The bottomline is "never bring a T5 CV into a division" - and this should never be the case for any ship in this game we all love, right?

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Easiest solution: make a solo mode, a division mode, and a CV mode that must be selected before battle.

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4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Yeah, pretty much.

Ironic, isn't it?

 

Actually it's pretty logical. MM just found a way to shove the attempt of getting the T5 BB some preferential MM where no sun shines.

  • Carrier mirror matching takes precedence. So a T5 carrier will be mirror matched against another T5 carrier.
  • A T5 carrier has preferential MM, so when a divisioned T5 carrier gets a solo T5 carrier as opponent, that match has to be T6 at max.
  • If MM finds 2 divisions with T5 carriers that have a non preferential MM ship divisioned, he can match BOTH up (which is what happend here) to the max of the non-preferential's ship maximum.

So I think it's not only ironic but even funny that MM shafted the attempt to get preferential MM to a non preferential MM ship by actually being lucky enough to find another division that attempted it. In my opinion, it's an actual case of both getting what they deserve. :Smile-_tongue:

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4 hours ago, 22cm said:

Easiest solution: make a solo mode, a division mode, and a CV mode that must be selected before battle.

The problem there is still CV Mirroring beats all other parameters. Divisioning up would garanty that you will gets the better MM in in case of the the CV being one Tir lower would garanty that you ALLWAYS top tir.

 

That would create a abuse of MM mechanics. Like i said earlyer even atm with sametir Div the case that you get a T7 game only aply when there IS another CV division in the cue at the exact same level. If it happens it sucks but that aplys too if you get thrown into a t9 game in with 2 Missouris and 3 Radar cruisers per side in your stock T7 DD that is rather ill suited for that enviroment.

 

Id rather see to be done with 2 CVs per side. Even at low to mid tir i see enogh games without a single CV id rather see a CV every game than 2 per side in certain games because CVs can deal somewhat with being uprired by selecting Targets most of the time but can never deal with higher tir Planes especally if you not even have acess to manual atacks while your oponent does.

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Vor 2 Stunden, Adwaenyth sagte:

 

Actually it's pretty logical. MM just found a way to shove the attempt of getting the T5 BB some preferential MM where no sun shines.

  • Carrier mirror matching takes precedence. So a T5 carrier will be mirror matched against another T5 carrier.
  • A T5 carrier has preferential MM, so when a divisioned T5 carrier gets a solo T5 carrier as opponent, that match has to be T6 at max.
  • If MM finds 2 divisions with T5 carriers that have a non preferential MM ship divisioned, he can match BOTH up (which is what happend here) to the max of the non-preferential's ship maximum.

So I think it's not only ironic but even funny that MM shafted the attempt to get preferential MM to a non preferential MM ship by actually being lucky enough to find another division that attempted it. In my opinion, it's an actual case of both getting what they deserve. :Smile-_tongue:

I'd agree if it was a real fail division, but this is just a normal division. And since the removal of manual attacks, this really shouldn't happen to poor T5 CVs.

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14 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

I'd agree if it was a real fail division, but this is just a normal division. And since the removal of manual attacks, this really shouldn't happen to poor T5 CVs.

Well it is a fail division for not taking preferential MM into account if it was accidental and not an attempt to get better MM for the BB.

 

Still it's like in WoT platooning an E-25 or SU-122-44 with a Tiger I. All are T7 but while the premiums have preferential MM and can normally only meet T8 tanks, the Tiger I will however regularly meet T9 tanks.

 

The only added difference is that the CV gets mirror matchmaking - which would usually work in favour of the BB because unless the MM finds another division with a T5 CV it can only match both to max T6 as the solo T5 CV MM maximum tier takes precedence.

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11 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Just t7 CVs - afaik  DDs, CA/Ls and BBs are "fair game".

Not really what the Matchmaking chart says does it? Im never sure when i looked at that tho.. basicly it says, T5 CV can only meat T4-T6 Ships.

Fact is, i dont want to play T5 CVs in Random anymore, i got screwed 2 out of 2 times in Bogue after the Manual attack change (both vs T6 CV) and first time i play Zuiho, it [edited] me even harder...

 

9 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Yeah, pretty much.

Ironic, isn't it?

Id call it stupid. Because fail divisions actually get rewarded that way.

 

4 hours ago, Adwaenyth said:

 In my opinion, it's an actual case of both getting what they deserve. :Smile-_tongue:

Playing together is get what u deserve nowadays? Interesting logic :cap_hmm:

 

3 hours ago, Spellfire40 said:

Id rather see to be done with 2 CVs per side.

This. I couldnt agree more.

 

2 hours ago, Adwaenyth said:

Well it is a fail division for not taking preferential MM into account if it was accidental and not an attempt to get better MM for the BB.

Nope, i want to play through IJN CVs - but i was hesitant to play T5 because i KNOW it ends in a shitshow all the time. Same reason im hesitant to play Ranger...

Only because i have close to 4k battles, im not allowed to play through lines normally anymore? And get called sealclubber for it? I even told that guy that my Cptn has 6 points.. hardly can be called sealclubbing, even the enemy Bogue had a 10 pt cptn atleast...

If i play Zuiho, why should my division mate NOT take a Texas if he wants to? Could have taken a GC ofc... would a more OP ship be less Sealclubbing because the Sinergy is not as good as Texas+CV?

One might even say, we are sealclubbing at T4, because at T5 u get screwed over by this. T6 we play Operations mostly, Ranger im not sure if i want to play because Sealclubbing Saipans...

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2 hours ago, Adwaenyth said:

an attempt to get better MM for the BB.

 

You seem to miss the points. Its not about me, its not about the BB. If I would open a thread, every time Im facing +2 mm in any of my BBs - my post could really would match my games played. And why arent you talking about the other Division? Yea, clearly sealclubbers that "deserved what was comming for them". Damn those sealclubbers with 500 games played, stattpadding with their OP-Divisions at 47% WR with his sealclubbing minekazes! How we all hate players like him! Right? Dude...

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4 hours ago, Spellfire40 said:

Id rather see to be done with 2 CVs per side.

 

52 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

This. I couldnt agree more.

 

Why do you want to starve poor Atlantas to death? Guys, have a mercy... My Gneisenau wants some food too... :Smile_teethhappy:

I personaly have nothing against 2 CVs per team. Like the concept. It just needs to be... khem... reworked... (soonTM WG?)

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40 minutes ago, Skyllon said:

I personaly have nothing against 2 CVs per team.

 

It only creates more problems. So often ive had 2 CVs playing at T4, and when the other sucks it gets so much harder for u. Not to mention when they are AFK. And its not balanced when it also happens to the other team - its still crap.

On T5+ again, u get those manual attack vs no-Manual attack matches, which are total [edited].

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1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

It only creates more problems. So often ive had 2 CVs playing at T4, and when the other sucks it gets so much harder for u. Not to mention when they are AFK. And its not balanced when it also happens to the other team - its still crap.

On T5+ again, u get those manual attack vs no-Manual attack matches, which are total [edited].

It does, thats true, but also makes for interesting battles at times. What I don't like (in gaming most of all) is repetitiveness, so I like almost anything MM comes up while being drunk...

At T4/5 those matches are often more problematic then at higher tiers (from my experience), because people more often cooperate with each other (sounds crazy, but that's just my experience) and are more often focusing single targets together. On the other hand autodrops are much easier to dodge, so...

One thing for sure though, I'd love to see more battles at low tiers without any CVs.

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