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Humorpalanta

Smoke changes experience

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So it has been a while since the the new smoke mechanism was introduced and I think it's time to share my experience with it.

I play random, very rarely divisions. Don't play clan or ranked or anything like it, so you got the context.

 

Experience with the new smoke is bad. Not just simply bad, horribly bad. Killed the game. While before the change there used to be at least some strategy and teams working together ever since the change it has turned out to be a disaster. Either lemmingtrain or die immediately and most likely lose. I play all classes (except CV) and my experience with the old smoke mechanism was that it could been easily challenged. Torp in smoke, shoot in smoke, radar, hydro, and some basic logic made it possible. Sometimes required tactics but it could be very well challenged. People helped each others, smoked up cruisers, battleships if they needed it.

 

Nowadays there is no reason to use your smoke for someone else because he still remains visible most of the time. Basically a simple move killed teamplay. You can't smoke up BBs to help them because if he shoots he is visible from the Moon. If it doesn't shoot he is useless. If he tries to turn using the smoke gets torped or shot and dies. Some cruisers in a good spot can be smoked up but most of the time it's just not worth it. No wonder less and less DDs use the consumable.

 

Now about the mechanism of it. If you shoot and use it immediately after you still stay visible. But why? It makes absolutely 0 sense. If you are a BB, shoot, sail inside smoke, nothing happens, still visible. How? Why? 0 sense.

2 smoke cruisers meet. Let's say Kutuzov and a british one. Both smoke up. If brit is inside 7.5 km, Kutuzov still stays visible inside smoke. Why? This is just utter bullsh*t. I think among the many changes they have made they should reconsider this smoke change because it just ruined the game and wasn't good for teamplay.

 

So how does smoke works?

 

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No difference in Random Battles.

 

Ranked however is far more island camp orientated. It's made an already slow game mode almost static. 

 

Didn't affect my DD game however.

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Regarding Kutuzov, it's to be played between 10-15km's, anything less you can expect torps comming, least that's how i look at it :Smile_honoring:

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I don't agree with your evaluation apart from the bit about removing the teamplay aspect of smoking allies.

 

The RN CL's have suffered a bit, somewhat mitigated by the recent change to the smoke generator, their spottability while firing from smoke is too high especially the Neptune, but apart from that it's not really a problem and far from a disaster.

 

I still play my Kutuzov much the same as before, but I lose some of the opportunities to ambush with torps.

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Pretty good assessment of the situation :cap_like:

- Neptune got shafted way too hard, cyclone is unbearable for her.

 

The removal of teamplay seems one of WGs most desired goals - dont ask me why. After making the smoke changes releasing a line with perma-smoke capability (PA-DDs) can only be explained by total selfishness, nothing else.

 

There are 2 things wrong with it for me personally:

- U shoot, get into smoke, u stay detected. Imo its bad and stupid. Thats what u said also, but

- SPOTTING FROM INSIDE THE SMOKE, must be the most stupid idea EVER. What did that tell the DD players? Dont use smoke for allies, and since u can spot now from inside it, u can have it all for yourself while u go dakka-dakka with your peashooters...

 

I never understood the arguement about BBs firing from smoke... really? Never bothered me personally.

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Overall, before it was introduced, I thought its gonna be worse. It turned out to be manageble most of the time - usualy due to the fact, that most random players are till afraid of a smokepuff.

2 things are bad tho

 

- First it killed the way I used to play my Mid-tier US DDs completly. I dont even touch them anymore cuz I dont know whats my role anymore. I cant smoke up my team, I cant torp enemys cuz of low range. I refuse to sit in my own smoke puffing minimal damage HE on 10 km BBs. I can play RN CLs if I want that kind of gameplay and  its 10x more efficient. Leander can contest caps like a DD most of the times anyway.

- Second. Now, there is something completly wrong, it effed me twice already. First time Fiji. Im next to an island. Behind the Island is a Bismarck, in my back some cruiser. I stay behind the island to engage the cruiser, gunfight in the open, our team kills him. My status goes from detected to undetected - logic, cuz nothing spots me. Now I accelarate around the island, slow down & smoke right away. That Bismarck is like ~3,5 km away from me. Ofc he briefly spots me but - it stays even after im covered from my smoke. Gunbloom on minimap shows still full. So obviously, im still in the 20 sec from shooting the long dead cruiser, from a position, that Bismarck NEVER had a LoS to spot me. But he does.

It again happened today. Northern Lights, im with my Neptune between B/C. Enemys push C with Missouri - Yamato - Charles Martel. The Yamato carelessly goes full speed through, he is like 6 km away from me. So there is no need to smoke, cuz I would be detected anway. I torp him, shoot him - he goes down. Missouri & Charles Martelstill behind Island -but pushing around right in that moment. I get undetected. So I smoke to turn in my smoke and stop their push with torps. What happens, once the come around the corner? Yep, I get detected on someting like 5,5 km. Again, the smoke detection mechanic from the long dead Yamato obviously allows the Missouri and Charles Martel to spot me. This - is - wrong!

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Oh ye forgot one more thing:

Before the smoke change, BBs pushing u around in your smoke as a RN CL was bad enough, but since they are most likely spotted nowadays (or start to shoot anyway...) suddenly, they are a target, and u sitting next to them doesnt help, which will cause u to get damage.

Actually does happen, and it sucks.

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57 minutes ago, Humorpalanta said:

People helped each others, smoked up cruisers, battleships if they needed it

I agree with you here.

There are tons of tools to counter smoke. And laying smoke for battleship was a nice tactics.

 

I could say that the smoke nerf is OK ... IF ships firing in smoke would be detected for less than full 20 seconds. 5-10 seconds would be fine.

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42 minutes ago, Major_Damage225 said:

Regarding Kutuzov, it's to be played between 10-15km's, anything less you can expect torps comming, least that's how i look at it :Smile_honoring:

Yupp, you're absolutely right there lad. When playing Shima, I actually hope to get a few kutuzovs into the game just so I can torp them into their smokes. My current record stands at 3 kills with 1 salvo (15 torps) on a 3 Kutuzov division sitting blithely still in their smokes and trying to cap B in the "Loop"-map while I capped A. :cap_like:

Fun times. Got mysteriously reported 3 times after that match tho. Hhehehe! :Smile_Default:

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Good change.

Added skill-based mechanics to something which was just a no-brainer ability outside of radar use.

BBs don't need smoke. Cruisers can still use it with a couple of caveats and DDs are unaffected. Working as intended.

 

I still smoke up cruisers which is a class that benefits from it greatly. Not smoking up BBs is not a bad thing. Saves the smoke for someone who actually needs it outside of when they mess up.

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16 minutes ago, Nechrom said:

BBs don't need smoke. Cruisers can still use it with a couple of caveats and DDs are unaffected. Working as intended.

 

SO in a nutshell:

BB buff -> They profit the most from a target which get spotted in smoke. I was under the impression that BBs camping in smoke were more of a liability to their team since they couldnt absorb damage.

Cruiser Nerf -> Obivous for all Cruiser with smoke, and for all Cruisers with Hydro trying to rush a DD in smoke, since they get spotted now by the DD.

DD buff -> they can sit in smoke and spot, while the smoke detection for them is mostly irrelevant.

 

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Overall i think the change has been good to the game.

 

BB has been "nerfed" because they now can use smoke only for heal and stop focus firing.

 

Cruiser have been largely unaffected. Kutuzov play the same (always OP), think Belfast owners can say the same, The only ship which have been heavily nerfed is, for some strange reason, Neptune (played it only after smoke change and i don't perform well, Edinburgh was almost unchanged played before and after change).

 

DD play always the same, but a good dd player can sneak near a kutuzov/belfast/british cruisers and ruin their day, so a small buff i'd say.

 

That's for random and low  ranked, for competitive i don't know

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I miss going close to a enemy smoke and torp at 2-3km all those nasty HE spammers.

Also miss going into a cap with DM behind a DD while running almost 1 minute radar+ hydro.

 

But the first week was hilarious, so many brithis CLs and Kuties getting owned into their own smoke.

 

I personally don't feel a huge change. Just need to bit a bit more cautious with Cruisers and stop firing if I want to heal with BBs.

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Don't get me wrong guys. Kutuzov thing was just an example of how badly it works ingame. Could be any other 2 cruisers or a cruiser and a DD. Basically: one has bigger visibility in smoke, let's say 6 km, other has 4 km. So if the latter is 4-6 km from the first, he can spot the first through 2 smokes while the other one can't. I think this is just plain stupid.

The other thing with this is what someone above have mentioned. If you shot and smoke up your visibility won't change for the next 20 sec. And it's truly against any logic possible and makes smoke stupid.

 

In the old times BBs actually could push up and decide a flank. Pushed up, lost 30-40% HP, DD smoked it up, got 2 torps, but survived and decided a flank and made the enemy run. Now it couldn't be done because it would die immediately. That's why this incredibly passive meta.

 

This smoke change took the variability out of the game. No matter which map only one tactic left. Lemming and hope. So much improvement.

In the old times it was possible that even hopeless situations could be turned around by teamwork. Those situations now are 100% certain lost. I miss the variability, the interesting situations, how 1 or 2 good players had bigger affect on games. Not because I want Kutuzov 2 km spotting again. But because the game changed to this utter crap lemming and snipe sh*t which was a lot smaller problem before.

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1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Oh ye forgot one more thing:

Before the smoke change, BBs pushing u around in your smoke as a RN CL was bad enough, but since they are most likely spotted nowadays (or start to shoot anyway...) suddenly, they are a target, and u sitting next to them doesnt help, which will cause u to get damage.

Actually does happen, and it sucks.

Totally agree with this, was sat in my smoke in Leander last night, bismark bundles into smoke, I can not manouver, he can be seen when he fires and I get sunk by the shells meant for him, great NOT!!!!!

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40 minutes ago, favuz said:

but a good dd player can sneak near a kutuzov/belfast/british cruisers and ruin their day, so a small buff i'd say.

 

Erm... ruin HIS OWN day you wanted to say....

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31 minutes ago, favuz said:

BB has been "nerfed" because they now can use smoke only for heal and stop focus firing.

They cant get nerfed because they never had smoke to begin with. If anything, teamwork got nerfed, which means a DD wont blast his smoke for a BB anymore.

Divisions however will STILL smoke that BB in order to safe him. U just cant deal damage in that period.

Why do ppl pull that arguement anyway? it was never a problem for me, and ive seen it rarely. Cruisers cuddling up in smoke happened far more often.

 

 

31 minutes ago, favuz said:

Cruiser have been largely unaffected. Kutuzov play the same (always OP), think Belfast owners can say the same, The only ship which have been heavily nerfed is, for some strange reason, Neptune (played it only after smoke change and i don't perform well, Edinburgh was almost unchanged played before and after change).

:cap_fainting:So a class which doesnt have smoke, as in ever, gets "nerfed, but a class where one entire line (basicly) has to rely on smoke remained unaffected... Where is the logic in that? And as i said, try rushing a DD in smoke with hydro, u WILL get spotted today, while before u could have stayed undetected, or if not, used his smoke afterwards to get undetected. Now both is impossible.

 

 

31 minutes ago, favuz said:

DD play always the same, but a good dd player can sneak near a kutuzov/belfast/british cruisers and ruin their day, so a small buff i'd say.

 

Only noob DDs want to get cute with a RN CL, let alone a Belfast... Before the change, u could get as close as Hydro range to throw your torps at them, now u have to stay x behind that, because u will spot him, and once he is spotted, he will come out. Doesnt matter if he dies, he will try to take him with u. So, u most likely wont get torp hits, and u take the risk of dieing. Before the change? Throw torps, maybe hit, maybe not, but make him leave his smoke usually. Then u can spot him, someone from your team kills him. Without any risk for u. So taking a risk to spot a RN CL in smoke is stupid at best, and suicidal at worst.

The Buff for DDs was, that they can sit in smoke and spot the target. Some ppl tend to keep shooting inside the smoke, just to keep themselves spotted :Smile_teethhappy:

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Not much has changed IMO. Neptune might have a case, but other than that, I'm still doing great in my Kutuzov. Learning to be a bit more careful is not a bad thing. You take a bit more care to note where the enemy DDs are if you play agressively and put hydro on her instead of DefAA and you're good to go.

 

BBs didn't need the stupid smoke camping.

 

And DDs are hardly affected. You are still more likely to be detected because hydro/radar than because you are firing with an enemy ship right under your nose.

 

Finally, I haven't noticed any changes whatsoever in team play. In Randoms you are as likely to find your allies sailing past the smoke you've just laid for them now than before the change. Not many people cared to set smokes for that reason before and that hasn't changed.

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46 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

SO in a nutshell:

BB buff -> They profit the most from a target which get spotted in smoke. I was under the impression that BBs camping in smoke were more of a liability to their team since they couldnt absorb damage.

Cruiser Nerf -> Obivous for all Cruiser with smoke, and for all Cruisers with Hydro trying to rush a DD in smoke, since they get spotted now by the DD.

DD buff -> they can sit in smoke and spot, while the smoke detection for them is mostly irrelevant.

 

 

I'm happy to see that the "spinning everything into a BB buff"-meme is still alive.

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1 minute ago, Nechrom said:

 

I'm happy to see that the "spinning everything into a BB buff"-meme is still alive.

 

Not my fault when u cant grasp the effect it had :fish_book:

DerpyDerp DD think its smart to spot a RN CL in his smoke by going close. Random BB 15km away sees a more or less stationary RN CL usually broadside. So clearly the one profiting from it is the BB, not the DD. Before the change torping the smoke was fine, but the CL was also undetected. So the BB couldnt shoot them as effectively, many ppl wouldnt even try anyway...

As i said, BB sitting in smoke is pretty dumb. Ofc its debatable - but i dont think BBs should be played like that. So they got "nerfed" when they were trying to hide in smoke - which still works, but they cant deal damage then. Angled BB is able to eat substential amounts of incoming fire, so a good player will try to draw fire on his BB, if the BB is in smoke, he cant do it. Also Torps? BBs sitting/hiding in smoke were target number 1 for torps..

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1 hour ago, Nechrom said:

BBs don't need smoke. Cruisers can still use it with a couple of caveats and DDs are unaffected. Working as intended.

 

8 minutes ago, Nechrom said:

I'm happy to see that the "spinning everything into a BB buff"-meme is still alive.

 

Did you read beyond the title of this topic?

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2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

DerpyDerp DD think its smart to spot a RN CL in his smoke by going close. Random BB 15km away sees a more or less stationary RN CL usually broadside. So clearly the one profiting from it is the BB, not the DD. Before the change torping the smoke was fine, but the CL was also undetected. So the BB couldnt shoot them as effectively, many ppl wouldnt even try anyway...

 

Except in practice no DDs actually goes in to suicide spot a CL in smoke. Most because they don't even realize they can, and some because they realize that being close to a RN CL with hydro is not healthy.

 

6 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

As i said, BB sitting in smoke is pretty dumb. Ofc its debatable - but i dont think BBs should be played like that. So they got "nerfed" when they were trying to hide in smoke - which still works, but they cant deal damage then. Angled BB is able to eat substential amounts of incoming fire, so a good player will try to draw fire on his BB, if the BB is in smoke, he cant do it. Also Torps? BBs sitting/hiding in smoke were target number 1 for torps..

 

A BB smoked up in the right location was incredibly powerful when the priority was to keep the enemy at bay. Obviously just randomly smoking up BBs when they are not in those important locations makes little difference or can be detrimental to the team as you don't want BBs stopping randomly in positions where they have few targets and don't serve a use as deterrents.

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12 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Did you read beyond the title of this topic?

 

Yes.

 Did you have anything else useful to add?

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