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SovietFury43

WG we dont need any more radar and hydrophones on literally every ship!

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Just had a match in a Kagero where i did literally nothing but run away from radars and hydrophones.

 

Started the match going to B point. Nobody there, most of the enemy fleet is pushing A, my team is capping C so i think to myself "great, a free point to capture". But oh no! There is a Des Moines sitting behind a damn island between C and B doing nothing but radaring everybody! So i retreat. I wait for the radar to go on cooldown and go cap B. And sure enough, just as i am about to cap B a god damn Missery comes along radaring everything! So i run again. The enemy fleet is pushing hard now from A to B, i try to launch a spread of torps among them to try and delay their advance, but oh no! There is a god damn Moskva in the middle again radating the hell out of me. AGAIN i am forced to run. I am getting really pissed now, i just want to attack something! So i see a lonely Kurfurst sailing around the islands at B with our Izumo in pursuit. I position myself to torpedo him as he comes around the island, but surprise, surprise he has his hydro up. He spots me waiting for him and of course immediately turns around.

 

End of the match 3k damage done 1 cap. Literally everywhere i turned there was [edited]radar! What a fun [edited]match that was! GJ Wargaming.

 

Why?! Why does literally every new ship that is realeased since the German BB line HAVE to have either radar or Hydrophones?! Or somethimes even both!

 

Edit: And why the hell does radar spot ships through islands?! Radar DOES NOT magically penetrate through huge land masses!

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1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

If you were running from Hydro, wou were too close...

 

I was not running from hydro, i was running from radar. Hydro helped the Kurfurst spot me because apparently now hydro spots you around edges of islands, so he expected torps and turned around. If i had followed him i would have got his full broadside in my face.

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Hydro is ok but Radar and how it work it's just BS - Radar is single worst thing WG implemented in game - They should make difference how it work like they did with shooting from smoke ( what was step in good direction ) ..

 

Radar should work like in real time - it should ping, so you would see ship for 1 sec and than lose sight for like 4 sec ( something like when DD is draws smoke , you see him for a sec and than you don't see him )  - in that way you should prepare yourself with guns aiming and be ready to shoot when next ping is there -- that would give DD enough time to try to escape and your team to act to try to kill it ..,  Now when radar pops it is game over for DD and that is the main problem and why high tier games are so passive -- DD's are afraid, BB's sinping and not tanking and cruiser can be oneshoot because there is no BB to tank   

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If you are in the range of a BBs hydro...

Hydro should not help them not to get torped.. Especially If you are in Kageroo..

They can only run away from your first 4.. If you launch them good.

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15 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

If you are in the range of a BBs hydro...

Hydro should not help them not to get torped.. Especially If you are in Kageroo..

They can only run away from your first 4.. If you launch them good.

 

I didn't launch them at all.

 

If i had tried, i would have got his while broadside into my face. The point is that a god damn battleship should not have hydrophones in the first place, a battleship should not have tools to counter his counter.

 

Here is what happened:

 

He was coming around an island. I was waiting for him to peek out around the island so i can ambush him and torp him. His hydro spots me (apparently now hydro spots ships around the corners of islands, no idea how that works). As soon as he starts spotting me, he makes a hard left turn because he expects torps coming. At that point i did not go around the island to follow him because if i did he would have probably just oneshot me with his entire broadside at that close range.

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2 minutes ago, SovietFury43 said:

a battleship should not have tools to counter his counter.

I guess DDs need to lose DefAA too then as a consumable?

 

 

2 minutes ago, SovietFury43 said:

 His hydro spots me (apparently now hydro spots ships around the corners of islands, no idea how that works).

Always has been like that?

I mean, did he turn his hydro on because he knew u were there or? In any case, if hydro was up he would have spotted those torps anyway... but its hard to say how close he actually was at that moment, so im just speculating.

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7 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I guess DDs need to lose DefAA too then as a consumable?

 

 

Always has been like that?

I mean, did he turn his hydro on because he knew u were there or? In any case, if hydro was up he would have spotted those torps anyway... but its hard to say how close he actually was at that moment, so im just speculating.

 

Most people don't use AA on DDs any way. Engine boost is much more useful.

 

I don't think he knew i was there, he probably turned it on just out of pure paranoia because he was going around the island.

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from all BBs only GK have Hydro and it is 1 min hydro - GK have it because GK is brawler and if WG would took hydro from him than we would have only those super special GK sniper players that are sailing around 20km from the first ship, and to answer you SovietFury43 - no he would not oneshoot you becuase it is a GK, if he was near you, you would took max 6k damage including secondarys while you could deal 105k dam to him if he was fullHP ..

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3 minutes ago, SovietFury43 said:

Most people dont use AA on DDs any way. Engine boost is much more useful.

 

But suddenly those DDs with DefAA become much more valuable when u go into a division with a CV!

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48 minutes ago, Cime said:

Radar should work like in real time

In "real life" there in no such thing like cooldowns and limited uses. :Smile_izmena:

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14 minutes ago, Cime said:

from all BBs only GK have Hydro and it is 1 min hydro - GK have it because GK is brawler and if WG would took hydro from him than we would have only those super special GK sniper players that are sailing around 20km from the first ship, and to answer you SovietFury43 - no he would not oneshoot you becuase it is a GK, if he was near you, you would took max 6k damage including secondarys while you could deal 105k dam to him if he was fullHP ..

 

With BB AP doing full damage to DDs all the time now, i am not willing to take that chance. Besides with hydro and sailing away from me, he would easily have dodged most of my torps any way.

 

@principat121  True, but you have to admit that radar spotting ships through islands is just stupid. And contributes to passive gameplay.

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@SovietFury43

 

it's called balancing

if you take away the continious mode from radar you have to come up with some compensation and thus radar can spot through hard cover in its limited working cycle

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Hard life (if your tactic is not strong and smart enough) So what to do - calculate more, play better?

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4 hours ago, SovietFury43 said:

Just had a match in a Kagero where i did literally nothing but run away from radars and hydrophones.

 

Started the match going to B point. Nobody there, most of the enemy fleet is pushing A, my team is capping C so i think to myself "great, a free point to capture". But oh no! There is a Des Moines sitting behind a damn island between C and B doing nothing but radaring everybody! So i retreat. I wait for the radar to go on cooldown and go cap B. And sure enough, just as i am about to cap B a god damn Missery comes along radaring everything! So i run again. The enemy fleet is pushing hard now from A to B, i try to launch a spread of torps among them to try and delay their advance, but oh no! There is a god damn Moskva in the middle again radating the hell out of me. AGAIN i am forced to run. I am getting really pissed now, i just want to attack something! So i see a lonely Kurfurst sailing around the islands at B with our Izumo in pursuit. I position myself to torpedo him as he comes around the island, but surprise, surprise he has his hydro up. He spots me waiting for him and of course immediately turns around.

 

End of the match 3k damage done 1 cap. Literally everywhere i turned there was [edited]radar! What a fun [edited]match that was! GJ Wargaming.

 

Why?! Why does literally every new ship that is realeased since the German BB line HAVE to have either radar or Hydrophones?! Or somethimes even both!

 

Edit: And why the hell does radar spot ships through islands?! Radar DOES NOT magically penetrate through huge land masses!

I feel you. It was not really until I got my Kagero that I seriously struggled with radar - although I had encountered them before (and got deleted quick). I required a very different playstyle for my part, much less agressively pushing caps, e.g. waiting for the enemy to start capping so I had an idea of where opposinf DDs was and tryin to spot the radar ships before making a move. Basivcally a very deliberate and carefull play that in my mind makes the game more boring.

No doubt, I think that the introduction of radar into wows has been a bad thing overall (noy only when I play DDs). That said, it is possible to "play around it" to a large degree, although I get tired of reading the "git gud" like comments that invariably follows if you dare express your frustration in this fora. But look around the different posts regarding/relatying to radar (and hydro) there are some good advice burried here and there.

 

And then, sometimes U are just F''*** and the opposing team, like a recent game today, where the enemy have several radar ships and somehow coordinate/sequence the use of them really good, add to that I am in a TVII vs mostly TIX with about 5-6 other DDs around on both sides. Zigging and Zagging, mini mapping to keep track of radar ships and trying to spot, contest cap and so on becomes micro managing and feels like mission impossible - even when staying at the edge of radar range you'll invarially be spottet for a few seconds and you quickly get widdled down in health - and even though I manage to sink a ship and do okay (and we won) I was just feeling irritated by the playstyle radar enforces.

 

Yes, "git good" is a way forward but we can't all be unicums or play 8h a day, there should be room for casual play(ers) and at least for me radar has been the single most disruptive "invention" for me in wows - even if I am learning to account for it.

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I have seen a lot of similar topics appearing in the forum, every few weeks or so. I really don't get the reason for another one. Don't get me wrong, I understand your frustrations and empathize for some of them. The thing is that you are: a) Shouting in a deaf person's ears - WG, and b) preaching to the choir - players. I think most players have a sense of what should be changed in the game, in broad strokes at least.

 

As far as WG's concerned, the game MUST be simplified or "STUPIDIFIED" as I like to say, for many reasons, most importantly to have more players - more revenue. Let's not elaborate on this, cause it's a completely different issue.

To be fair, we must state the obvious: no one would like a 100% realistic "battles at sea" game, not even close... it would be unplayable! Period. Don't forget that we have even "stranger" mechanisms in game, for example the automagical insta-relay of a scouted enemy ships' position, to the whole fleet, with pinpoint accuracy and real-time updates...

 

Would I like the mechanics of hydro and radar to change? Sure. But I don't find them so detrimental (though I main DDs), as other aspects of the game. Quick example, the non balancing of their existence in the MM. I can deal with the enemy having hydro and/or radar, if my team has it as well. One team having 2 hydros + 2 radars vs. none in the other is not fun. Talking of course for randoms, cause for clan battles for example, we're talking about players that pre-organize their battle, and can rip the rewards, or suffer the consequences of their decisions.

 

My main issue with hydro, and especially with radar, is their operation behind obstacles. And I'm not talking about the issue of non realism. When I started playing, I begun with the German CL/CA line, then BBs, then a little DDs. Playing German CL/CAs, I found that hydro is not so big of an issue for the enemy, cause in order for me to use it offensively, e.g. trying to flush out a DD out of his smoke, I would put my ship in harms' way. In a distance of aprox. 5 km it is easy to be torped  by an enemy DD, let alone catching potential volleys of the enemy fleet, while you charge. Radar on the other hand is totally OP (not talking about a radar ship per se, but the radars' use benefits vs. risks), for one reason only: you don't have to expose your ship to ANY danger. On the contrary. You can - potentially - pass a long part of the battle, hidden behind an island, while your BBs punish the enemy fleet from 25km behind. Now that's something I'm not fond of...

 

Will these mechanics ever be changed? I give it a 5% chance at best. So we better learn to live with them, and try to play our game as best as we can!

Cheers!

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20 hours ago, SovietFury43 said:

 

Most people don't use AA on DDs any way. Engine boost is much more useful.

I don't agree, aa is more useful most of the time. Spotter planes can be really annoying as well. 

19 hours ago, SovietFury43 said:

 

With BB AP doing full damage to DDs all the time now, i am not willing to take that chance.

 

@principat121  True, but you have to admit that radar spotting ships through islands is just stupid. And contributes to passive gameplay.

It has always done that. Now it's just recognised by wg as a problem. 

 

But I agree that radar spotting through islands is just stupid. In my opinion, radar ships should also be spotted the moment they activate radar. I see you, you see me. 

You can even explain it with real life, since I'm real life you can easily detect the source of a radar beam. 

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1 hour ago, SharkMan77 said:

you don't have to expose your ship to ANY danger. On the contrary. You can - potentially - pass a long part of the battle, hidden behind an island, while your BBs punish the enemy fleet from 25km behind. Now that's something I'm not fond of...

Sounds like pretty rewarding play... not :cap_hmm:

First when u are behind an island and Radar a ship, your XP gain is most likely minimal when u Radar an enemy ship. The only reward it gives, it adds a chance to you winning the game. On the other hand, the enemy team can do the same,  and if they dont have Radar, then its the actual problem - balancing Radar ships. Not Radar itself.

Second: All the Radar in the world wont help u, if your team is too stupid to shoot the DD, which does happen more often than one might expect...

How come one teams BBs can punish the enemies at 25km while the others cant? Sounds a bit one-sided, because having a Radar ship doesnt change the range of BBs...

 

20 minutes ago, stewie533 said:

But I agree that radar spotting through islands is just stupid. In my opinion, radar ships should also be spotted the moment they activate radar. I see you, you see me. 

You can even explain it with real life, since I'm real life you can easily detect the source of a radar beam. 

Probably wont make any difference at all, except for Belfast/ (Black).

Most ppl argue, that Radar ships sit behind Islands, so does it matter when u get spotted? Nope. Only from a point that u know when u will escape his Radar range. But then again: there are certain locations for Radar ships where they can Radar caps, know them and u dont need to know the range basicly.

For ships with equal or better concealment than Radar range: When do they pop Radar? When they are spotted! So u already know where they are.

Thats why Belfast is an exception, because it sits in smoke undetected.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

 

Probably wont make any difference at all, except for Belfast/ (Black).

Most ppl argue, that Radar ships sit behind Islands, so does it matter when u get spotted? Nope. Only from a point that u know when u will escape his Radar range. But then again: there are certain locations for Radar ships where they can Radar caps, know them and u dont need to know the range basicly.

For ships with equal or better concealment than Radar range: When do they pop Radar? When they are spotted! So u already know where they are.

Thats why Belfast is an exception, because it sits in smoke undetected.

 

 

Oh, I agree. That's why it shouldn't go through islands either. But then there is at least counter play possible. It won't be an I win button anymore since using radar would mean potentially shooting yourself in the foot as well. 

(and it's not like the black and Belfast can't use a little nerf)

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I am by no means a superunicum player,

 

That said: i play a lot of british cruisers and i have had to learn my way round radars. It is doable, for sure. The best point is: think ahed and know when to expect the radar to be popped on you. Always know the location of radar ships, their distance from you and their course (are they closing? will they be in radar range?). If for whatever reason you can't position outside of their radar range (happens a lot), have always a contingency plan in your mind. If its a russian radar for example you can easily survive it even in a minotaur (not always, but easily) so long as you expected it and angled correctly in your smoke, or made it so to have hard cover present.

 

The one most precious advice i took on how to deal with radar is: not panic...

 

But yes, on one thing i will totally agree: MM should take into account number of radars on each team because it is embarrassingly unfair when one team has 4 + radars against 1 or even 0. And to add insult to injury sometimes that team has also one more dd....

So radar is not the "one biggest problem". I think it is the balance of radars in teams that is. Sure enough if there are equal number of radars on the two teams the problem one team is facing can be replicated to the other team, and then it would really come down to who is doing better teamwork/who has better radar-ships captains in his team.

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22 hours ago, SovietFury43 said:

(...) Hydro helped the Kurfurst spot me because apparently now hydro spots you around edges of islands, so he expected torps and turned around. If i had followed him i would have got his full broadside in my face.

Hydro always worked like that. Nothing new. Matches like that can be frustraiting and MM radar imballance often doesn't help.

IJN destroyers are not in a very good spot right now and it doesn't seem like WG is going to rework them any time soon.

My advise would be to either change line or grind through Kagero as fast as possible and get Yugumo which is much better ship. Alternatively play Akizuki on T8 which is way more fun then Kagero.

 

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1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Sounds like pretty rewarding play... not :cap_hmm:

First when u are behind an island and Radar a ship, your XP gain is most likely minimal when u Radar an enemy ship. The only reward it gives, it adds a chance to you winning the game. On the other hand, the enemy team can do the same,  and if they dont have Radar, then its the actual problem - balancing Radar ships. Not Radar itself.

Second: All the Radar in the world wont help u, if your team is too stupid to shoot the DD, which does happen more often than one might expect...

How come one teams BBs can punish the enemies at 25km while the others cant? Sounds a bit one-sided, because having a Radar ship doesnt change the range of BBs...

 

Probably wont make any difference at all, except for Belfast/ (Black).

Most ppl argue, that Radar ships sit behind Islands, so does it matter when u get spotted? Nope. Only from a point that u know when u will escape his Radar range. But then again: there are certain locations for Radar ships where they can Radar caps, know them and u dont need to know the range basicly.

For ships with equal or better concealment than Radar range: When do they pop Radar? When they are spotted! So u already know where they are.

Thats why Belfast is an exception, because it sits in smoke undetected.

 

 

Rewarding or not, that's how the game is played most of the time. And as I already stated the radar ship, doesn't expose itself to danger.

Your team might or might not shoot, depending on the stupidity level? Yes but that's not the point. I was just saying that, e.g. a Radar CA hidden behind an island radars a DD, which in turn is been shot by BBs or even CAs in a distance that he cannot retaliate, even he tried (torp maybe the assailants). Now his team may or may not have the distance to return fire to the BBs (depending on the ships available to the vicinity for support), but for sure the radar ship in that situation is untouchable.

 

That was my point! And it's something I have learned to deal with and don't make fuss about it, there are worse things that need to be fixed.

Finally thank you for agreeing with me that balancing radar ships is the actual problem. This is what I stated in my post!

 

Cheers!

 

 

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4 minutes ago, SharkMan77 said:

And as I already stated the radar ship, doesn't expose itself to danger.

 

L O L

Right.

How many times did you use radar to make that assessment? 0 I see from your stats. Well done. If you use your radar, everyone knows where you are. As a Radar cruiser, you are already public enemy No1 and the radar cruisers are the more sqiushy ones anyway, so that makes them even more of a target. And I cant count the times, Ive traded 1-1 with a DD in my RU CAs using Radar. Also - using radar from behind Island is situational, not possible on every map and can be avoided so easy. Why do you go B on Northern Lights when there is a Radar Cruiser and you havent spotted him? Those DDs can sink in minute 1 for all I care. They most likely will sink in minute 3 anyway, once they pushed through the cap playing gunboat with their IJN DD against a BB.

 

4 hours ago, SharkMan77 said:

One team having 2 hydros + 2 radars vs. none in the other is not fun.

That I agree on. But it might not be easy to take into account, also, cuz several ships may or may not be equiped with Radar (CN CLs T8+, Chapa, if even seen US CA with plane).

 

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