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KarmaQU_EU

CV player skill is polarized

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(inb4 someone calls captain obvious on the title) It is rare I make an effort to focus on a specific point in my posts. So there is no TL;DR for this one.

I recently played some WoWs after a long break. During my games, something I observed was that the players playing CV in my games were mostly from one of three types:

 

1. Total noob. Doesn't move the CV for the whole game. Makes the most random decisions in what to strike or not, and doesn't listen to advice. 

2. Below-average Dumb player. Moves CV, sends planes to cover allies, tries to manually strike a good target. For the first wave. Then any semblance of coordination vanishes after that, they leave planes hovering unattended all over the place, doesn't react with urgency to enemy strike planes heading to allies even though allied ships spotted them incoming miles away, and their fighters are literally just hovering nearby too, and doesn't really listen to advice or requests for spotting (or are too "pre-occupied to help", or just don't know what spotting means), and loses all their planes striking an AA-covered target while failing the strike anyways because they approached from a bad angle. They don't even start running when an enemy DD goes at them, they just keep their CV camped against the rock (I mean, running should be a natural reaction). Maybe they just gave up. They still keep sending planes to auto-bomb the DD to no effect though. Luckily the DD is so dumb it launches torps at the CV, misses, dodges CV drop but then circles around to wait for its torps to load. Teammates yell at it to shoot the CV, so it does, with AP. But without much gusto either (like, it shoots 2 salvos then just gives up). "God, just shoot it, you're a Lo Yang..." Teammates cry Edited and wonder aloud what they are witnessing. "Ranked, gentlemen." I reply. DD: (first response for the whole game) "[response edited for privacy]".

So these players are mostly left to their own devices, striking this target or that, but completely unpredictable and unreliable for the team.

3. Unicums. They proceed to spot, strafe, Edited  DDs, then wipe out the opposing CV in two strikes. Not very fun for the opposing team to play against at all, especially when their own CV decides to take the no-fighter loadout.

 

In other words, the people who play CV are either ppl who are actually skilled enough and comfortable enough to dominate in CV, or total clueless nubs who don't give a damn about their performance. Most average players with self-awareness or self-responsibility shy away from the CV, not even because they are that unskilled at it, but because they are tired of the toxic experience of CV MM and gameplay, and the lackluster appeals of playing CV.

 

I used to remember CVs on teams being mostly dependable and fairly skilled, back 1.5 yrs ago, and I remember CVs mostly being such a large threat in CBT and the earliest stages of the game (almost 3 yrs ago), that ppl would purposefully huddle up, cover each other with AA, advance carefully, when there were CV present in the game, because not doing so almost guaranteed getting on the bad side of both the enemy CV who will decimate you and then your teammates, and the friendly CV, for making it very hard on him to try to protect you. In other words, they still took this game as one that should be played as a team game, one with respect to its design, with strategic and tactical depth, and would be a better experience if friendly and cooperating with the team.

Nowadays, ppl don't even care. Least of all, the CVs. Both the atmosphere of the game, and the actual gameplay, is far from ideal. Even though ppl say glhf and such, it's more a formality than anything else. And only happens in ranked, where the same players recognize each other over conescutive games, but never in randoms anymore. And even in ranked, there is no "gg". Even amongst the consecutive players. "gg" just isn't fitting to be in this game anymore, due to a complex combination of many factors of cultural, emotional, personal, and structural problems. This saddens me. (I mean, ppl in this game once tried to perform just so they wouldn't hurt each other's feelings. They "had enough EQ" to recognize, and be nice, to the CV who was already in a pressured spot for taking the most crucial role for the team. In some ways, this was the environment my CV experience accumulated in, and to this day I still swear by the ideal of playing CV to support/protect the team. Yet, the grim realities I observed more recently cannot be farther from this cheery vision.)

 

Of all the games I played, few and rare did ships move up to support the DDs, at least within danger range. Ships tended to not want to be any closer than anyone else for fear of being focused. At this rate, DD gameplay will suffer some of the same dilemmas as CV, for being a bad experience. Even though it will be much less severe, as DDs are not yet designed into a corner like the CV warranting dire measures such as mirrored MM, and they are still generally appealing, in the sense being a "desirable" ship experience for their torpedoes and stealth, while the CV on contrast faces tough skill barriers, team focus and criticism (I imagine some less social ppl wouldn't even stand that spotlight pressure regardless of skill), and a generally frustrating experience (same for some ppl who absolutely flip out at frustration). The desirability of BBs and CAs, as reflected in actual data in one of my polls earlier, supports this observation. Thus I hope the point of being alert for potential vulnerabilities and shortcomings in the game design based on hypothesizing the experience for DDs based on generalizing from CVs, will be point taken and considered. And that this may reflect deeper, core flaws in the design philosophy of this game which will be harder to pin down, and even harder to address, but should not be dismissed if we still are to believe in and wish the best for this game in the future.

 

Musings:

I recently made a troll topic about how the "great player diaspora" which saw drops of 600k to the about 40k we see today, could be partially in a representative theory how CV gameplay was a symbolic turn point in "falling short of expectations". I also mentioned that the reason it was so lethally potent, was that it was dual-angled and a self-reinforcing process of aggravation. While that theory (and post) was troll, this one is not. Of my conclusions since playing again, CV gameplay has taken a turn for the worse since I remember, and the self-reinforcing and aggravating conditions may already be at work for the present issues at hand. The lowering of CV population, and this polarizing-skill phenomenon, as well as general criticism popping up regularly on forums, could be interpreted to support this hypothesis.

 

I really hope that whatever overhaul or CV changes WG is planning, will prove to address deeper issues such as this. Back at the beginning 2017, when they first considered overhauling CV, I though it was just to optimize the mechanics and experience. But nowadays, it is clear that such a thing by itself would no longer be sufficient, by far. If it were only mechanics to be designed, they'd better be state-of-the-art mechanics nothing short of genius, to be able to turn this situation around via only subtle, intricate and precise changes in game mechanics, eventually shifting back the paradigm to something more ideal. I recently read an idea of creating "legacy" WoWs server of CBT just like World of Warcraft, but to be honest, even that will not achieve the time-machine level changes to re-enact the high expectations, eagerness, community spirit, and moral of players back then. 

 

I've binged myself on enough ranked and randoms for a while now, and will likely take another long hiatus from WoWs. This concludes the "1.5 yrs later" line of thought and posts. (Which there wasn't much of anyways to begin with, so nothing lost here XD

and please don't take me too seriously.)

 

Edit: I realize that in some cases DD ap may be desirable against a CV, especially a camped one against a rock, and while it is good to be vigorous and nitpick on the details, pls don't nitpick on the details this once and focus on my point.

 

This post has been edited by the moderation team due to swearing. 

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[ESPA]
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Btw, there aren't any loadouts without fighters anymore.

Basically what you re asking it's that Carrier players should be more skillful, right?

Altought lately I have noticed the average carrier player it's a little more skillful than what was 2 years ago. Hell, back then I managed to shoot down almost all fighter planes from TWO AS bogues (I miss that). Nowadays I barely find any CV captain noob enough to fall easly for my tricks. Most of the times I need to lure him. Altought once I meet a Saipan player which I honestly believe he couldn't tell the difference between a fighter and a torpedo plane. It was the first time I felt bad for clubbing someone.

 

 

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[PARAZ]
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2 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

In other words, they still took this game as one that should be played as a team game, one with respect to its design, with strategic and tactical depth, and would be a better experience if friendly and cooperating with the team.

 

giphy.gif

 

(Not too far back, though. The loadouts were ridiculous at the beginning.)

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[FJAKA]
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Op is opsessed with cv. Probably killed once again and he have new epic topic. 

 

Mate it is time that you start playing cv. 

 

P.s.

I am really hope you never get back to wows

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everyone complains about the CV players.

Good CV player vs Bad Cv player mostly means a defeat for the Bad players side.. I accept that..

 

But where do you think those bad players will learn and improve?

 

Totally not reflecting real players behaviours Co-op mode?

or manual drop removed low CV tiers.. ?

 

again, I accept all the other problems everyone talks about..

I for myself think, playing CV is a totally different game and I respect good one highly..

 

But give them a break..

It is a very very hard class to learn and master.. that is because there is no average players in them.. they either suck or excell in it mostly.

they need to learn randoms. in randoms..

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[FJAKA]
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Cv players are good or bad as rest of community. But as cv is mostly 1 vs 1 you soon can determine who is better. 

 

In other class bad play is much less visible. 

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[FATAL]
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5 hours ago, Excavatus said:

 

But where do you think those bad players will learn and improve?

 

 

Ideally, in a decent tutorial, which you need to complete to a certain standard before you are able to play the class in randoms.

 

Sadly, that will never happen which is why I ended up in a battle yesterday where neither of our 2 CVs moved at all and got nuked...

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A tutorial wont solve the issue.

CV need practice. You can watch a stream 10 hours - your first 50 drops and your first 100 strafes will suck anyway and a unicum will eat you alive in your first 100 games no matter what you watched.

 

Every potatoe is allowed to sit in his T10 BB at the map border and loose the game for his team - i dont see the problem with a midway potatoe doing the same thing.

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[BLITZ]
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*Edited

 

Edited by Nohe21
*Post edited by the moderation team due to non constructive content.
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[-KT-]
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38 minutes ago, Wings_of_RNGesus said:

 

[...]

Every potatoe is allowed to sit in his T10 BB at the map border and loose the game for his team - i dont see the problem with a midway potatoe doing the same thing.

The bigger influence on the game?

 

Thus the HE-sniping HP-perk Kurfuerst will achieve like 44% WR and the Midway potato 34%.

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I have US and IJN tier 7 CVs and I do not play them, or one game once in a while, because I'm afraid that I would make my team lose because I'm not good enough in those ships.

I like the change of gameplay this class provides but I feel not comfortable when playing it and they stay in my port.

This feels wrong, doesn't it? CVs have too much influence on a game...

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4 hours ago, krazypenguin said:

 

Ideally, in a decent tutorial, which you need to complete to a certain standard before you are able to play the class in randoms.

 

Sadly, that will never happen which is why I ended up in a battle yesterday where neither of our 2 CVs moved at all and got nuked...

I totally agree with the guy below..

You cannot learn that class by tutorials or watching streams or videos..

That is one hell of a class to learn and master skills.

It is like the piano of the World of warships.. all the other ships are the instruments which belong to an orchestra.

Not a single instrument can make it solo beyond 30 mins without boring people to death.. no lyrics, no other sounds.. just listen a single violin..

But A piano can make it out for 2 hours without boring people to death unlike other instruments.

So it is the master of the musical instruments and it is the hardest to master.. Because of that there will be always less virtuosos on piano than other instruments.

 

We have to let people practice in randoms.. Because only practice makes it perfect.. No school, no tutorial, no lessons.. only practice..

Yes again, I accept It is too much of a deciding factor in battles whether you got a good CV player or a bad one.. But thats not the players problem to solve.. it is WGs.

but when you get the good one, it is like listening a concerto watching him/her... perfect!

and there I am, playing my guitar to attract ladies on a beach in my yugumo!

 

3 hours ago, Wings_of_RNGesus said:

A tutorial wont solve the issue.

CV need practice. You can watch a stream 10 hours - your first 50 drops and your first 100 strafes will suck anyway and a unicum will eat you alive in your first 100 games no matter what you watched.

 

Every potatoe is allowed to sit in his T10 BB at the map border and loose the game for his team - i dont see the problem with a midway potatoe doing the same thing.

 

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[B0TS]
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Speaking as a hobbyist CV player, more than a real CV driver... :-

 

Just unlocked Ryujo yesterday, after not having played cv's for quite some time, thought to myself, ok, I will play an operation in Independence which I unlocked ages ago then try 'her' in a random before using the Ryujo. Had my [edited]handed back to me so damn quickly by the opposing Inde/Ryujo (was a double CV match) that i was actually stunned by how ineffectual I was. Haven't driven another CV again yet.

(I have Kaga, Saipan and Enterprise in my port, all since early last year, but not driven any of them yet as I know that I am out of practice and, if I'm honest, I am now questioning whether I can actually perform in them - not the youngest player by any means, although not near to be being the oldest either, closer to the latter though :)  But CV's require speed of mind, eye and hand that only grows with the number of squads in the air and the speed at which they fly. These things are much less critical with other ship types, still important, but not as critical).

 

Confidence knocked, very much so, will I get up again, yes, but much more practice needed before I risk randoms again. (Never mind competitive).

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[IDDQD]
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26 minutes ago, philjd said:

But CV's require speed of mind, eye and hand that only grows with the number of squads in the air and the speed at which they fly. These things are much less critical with other ship types, still important, but not as critical).

thats exactly why I play WoWs, because its "slow" game. And thats why I dont play CVs...since my 20 APM in starcraft 2 is probably not enough :cap_cool:

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[UNICS]
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Had this guy on my team in 2 consecutive battles:

 

pypsteel.png

 

Making WoWs a wonderful place in his Lexington.

 

The first battle I had some choice words about him after he was afk for the first minutes and then went at 1/2 speed across our side of the map while being run down by two enemy DDs and every enemy within gun range.

The second battle I just felt sad as he was communicating a lot with voice commands and it looked like he tried to do things, but it obviously wasn't working out.

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Dont worry.

 

The CV Ui wont let you have more than 30 APM anyway. And thats on its good days and not counting the other bugs like:

 

"Why did my TBs just take an extra round in the AA besides being outside the drop circle for like half a mile?" or

"Why did my Fighters not strafe anything besides all the enemy planes being in the path at least at my screen" or

"Why didnt the fix the "plane hopping back to start" animation bug in 3 years?"

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Do you have the slightest idea how exhausting it would be to play against a good opponent every match?

You can have 3 such matches - than you need a long break to recover.

 

A CV vs CV match with 2 guys knowing what to do is not a BB match where you can read your mails while playing ;-)

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19 minutes ago, Cime said:

WG - we definitely need skilled MM for CV players ( if nothing than give us only cv players skilled MM ) - it is win/lose every time 

Indeed.

I am against any kind of skilled MM.

But CVs are the only exception where I would support a skilled MM. The difference in the WR of the opposing CV captains should not be greater 7%.

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15 minutes ago, principat121 said:

Indeed.

I am against any kind of skilled MM.

But CVs are the only exception where I would support a skilled MM. The difference in the WR of the opposing CV captains should not be greater 7%.

I have 56 (almost 57%WR) and honestly, I can in a CV be a huge pain in the arse for a 65+% CV player (when I'm not royally f*cking up which happens regularly when I'm playing CV). He may be better than me, I can at least block him into a stalemate and deny all his strikes the same way he denies all mine. Experienced this several time. And the final result is... up to the team.

But it's also a very hardcore experience and you need to fight both the player and the buggy UI, and be very into the match to grasp any chance you can have to strike. It's quite the exhausting mind game while praying your team won't f*ck up too much.

 

After 3 matches like this you just want to hop onto your Iwaki Alpha and club seals. Or in my case just stop playing for the day depending on how bad my team was and go PVP in Dark Souls 3 which is far less frustrating. :fish_viking:

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[-GGS-]
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Back to the drawingboard... CVs need a good overhaul. I think they should be reworked in a way so that we can have 3-4 in every game without breaking it like all the other classes.

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[ELCH]
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The major issue is that CV games are primarily 1 vs 1 fights that are quickly decided if there is too much skill difference. After that, it's like on team having a CV and the other having none, and that usually tips the scale for everyone else. Games shouldn't be decided by the outcome of a 1 vs 1 fight. To fix THAT is WGs primary mission for the CV rework.

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[PARAZ]
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1 hour ago, principat121 said:

But CVs are the only exception where I would support a skilled MM. The difference in the WR of the opposing CV captains should not be greater 7%.

 

That won't do anything. A CV can easily reach over 60% WR nowadays without having understood the basics of CV play, much less the more advanced mechanic it offers. I've had plenty of "high skill" CV players tell me they've never been counterstrafed before for example. Or simply disregarding their team completely in an attempt to farm damage. This is due to the average player being abysmally bad, allowing CVs to have much more potential influence on a match than inherently designed based on damage alone. Scouting and air control are an afterthought in their minds despite being equally, if not more important.

On the other hand, a 50% WR CV player who has understood the basics of play but is mechanically less skilled is much more of a pain in the aft to deal with.

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why does every cv related discussion only talk about potato cv drivers facing unicums?

 cv drivers out there follow the usual bell distribution curve ... its not just the far ends of the curve

 

around average players play as well and there are a shoite tonne more of us than the potato/unicum classifications.

guess the OP is just cherry picking his "facts".

bell-curve.jpg

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4 hours ago, Cime said:

WG - we definitely need skilled MM for CV players ( if nothing than give us only cv players skilled MM ) - it is win/lose every time 

No way!! I really enjoy sealclubbing!! (Even when that means sometimes the clubbed one it's me)

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