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Tubit101

Loyangs were a huge mistake

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This is me in my Benson, being hydroed by a Loyang sitting at the very edge of the cap circle:

 

https://imgur.com/a/IiBh0

 

Note that this is at the start of the game. There is no other factor causing me to be hit, except for the hydro spotting me (and naturally guns pointed at me as an effect of being spotted).

 

 

 

This is me being dead at the start of the game, due to the Loyang hydro:

 

https://imgur.com/a/cyLTT

 

I had no chance whatsoever. Notice that the hydro range of the Loyang is over twice as long as the diameter of the cap zone. Twice as long!! How am I supposed to escape or play around a mechanic like that? Remember that not every cap has an island to hide behind. I can't bait the hydro, because when it gets turned on, it takes too long to get away. And the duration of the hydro? Two minutes!!

 

This constitutes to an automatic I WIN button for the Loyang. What is WG's intention behind this? How do we play around it? Is the only solution to buy a Loyang and have every single DD in the game be a Loyang? Please explain your plan and strategy on this WG.

 

Let me also add that when running from a Loyang hydro, it is 100% necessary to get out as fast as possible, which means that I have to position my ship that makes it incredibly prone to be shredded length-wise by BB AP. Currently, DD gameplay and winning matches as a whole revolves around whether you have a Loyang on your team or not. It is frankly giving the Loyang a ridiculously overpowered and pivotal role.

 

Now, you might say that "both teams could get Loyangs, it's fine" - but it's not fine. This is a balancing blunder because it overblows the importance of the individuals playing the Loyang, just like with CVs - the role of a single ship becomes far too critical to the rest of the team. It should be emphasized that WG does not balance MM around radar and hydro. One team can get all the radar and hydro and the other team can get nothing!

 

Some might try to excuse this by coming up with complicated explanations of how they want other DD captains to play around this mechanic somehow. I don't really see how, but I'm sure somebody will try. Let me just preemptively say this: Giving the Loyang EZ-mode and then asking others to perform incredible feats to somehow get around it is terrible balancing. Some might say this is situational. It is not, this is the rule rather than the exception. Speaking in terms of game development, it's a complete failure - which just happens to benefit WG financially while it takes a dump on the players.

 

I look forward to hearing your well thought out reflections on this problem. Of course, I am especially looking forward to hearing WGs thoughts and solutions. Hopefully they will help me sorting out my mistakes and become a better player. Thank you in advance!

 

 

 

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Yep, the Hydro on DDs is a "I win" mechanic. I still find it... interesting? amusing? how many -especially- Lo Yang owerns cant understand their strongest advantage given to them. You see Lo Yang chicken out from enemy DDs all the time, turning away, smoking up.

 

On a second look - Im pretty sure its radar from the Chapayev at the island from E5, that caught you. Lo Yang is too far away to hydro you from the smoke and if he would follow you - he would be detected. So story is not like you tell ?

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Eh just before i say anything else:

Is that Cruiser a Chapa at the island? I think its his Radar then, because the Hydro range is too far (5,43km on Lo yang)

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6 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Eh just before i say anything else:

Is that Cruiser a Chapa at the island? I think its his Radar then, because the Hydro range is too far (5,43km on Lo yang)

Regardless of who is doing the spotting, the problem still persists doesn't it? The result is the same. I could change the title to "island penetrating radars were a huge mistake", of course.

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4 minutes ago, Tubit101 said:

Regardless of who is doing the spotting, the problem still persists doesn't it? The result is the same. I could change the title to "island penetrating radars were a huge mistake", of course.

 

No, not the same. One lasts 20 secs the other 1,5 mins (or more with Hydro modification module) Also its hard to say if the Chapa could have LoS from his position towards your position. He must have at some point.

Hydro DDs are much more "I-Win" than Radar Cruisers (not sure about DM tho, because long duration Radar with insane Reload). But then, DM doesnt have smoke like Loyang

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5 minutes ago, Tubit101 said:

. I could change the title to "island penetrating radars were a huge mistake", of course.

 

Well. You didnt. Your entire post was about Lo Yang & Hydro. Also - that is neither the case here. Chapayev is spotted, thus LoS is given. You are spotting him.

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4 minutes ago, Tubit101 said:

Regardless of who is doing the spotting, the problem still persists doesn't it? The result is the same. I could change the title to "island penetrating radars were a huge mistake", of course.

The source of what you think is wrong makes a huge difference.

One is a single DD, the other is a mechanic available to a ton of different ships.

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1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

No, not the same. One lasts 20 secs the other 1,5 mins (or more with Hydro modification module) Also its hard to say if the Chapa could have LoS from his position towards your position. He must have at some point.

Hydro DDs are much more "I-Win" than Radar Cruisers (not sure about DM tho, because long duration Radar with insane Reload).

The gist of this is that Loyangs are a major contributing factor to this problem. They can sit in their smoke and fire without a care in the world, and WG doesn't even care to balance for this in the MM.

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9 minutes ago, Nechrom said:

The source of what you think is wrong makes a huge difference.

One is a single DD, the other is a mechanic available to a ton of different ships.

Even if the Loyang was alone, he would still get a lot of hits in without me being able to do anything at all. It is simply too difficult for a ship without detection capabilities to counter radar and hydro. It is clearly unbalanced. If you disagree, explain why. But yes, not being able to discern the source of the detection ability is clearly also another problem which puts the receiving party at an unfair disadvantage. Remember that we're discussing the mechanic here, not this situation in particular. I'm simply illustrating my point.

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2 minutes ago, Tubit101 said:

It is clearly unbalanced. If you disagree, explain why.

Theres a counter to every mechanics. If that fails just match the enemy tactics to level the playfield.

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1 minute ago, Schmidt_zxc said:

Theres a counter to every mechanics. If that fails just match the enemy tactics to level the playfield.

You're trying to make a point without providing a concrete solution. No, there is not always a solution to every mechanic - that's why ships and/or gameplay can be either balanced or unbalanced. Remember that WG does not balance MM around this mechanic. They made this mistake with CVs, then later tried to make up for it by reducing the amount of CVs that can be in a battle - which largely failed because it makes the role of a single player too pivotal. Now they are making the same mistake again.

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3 minutes ago, Tubit101 said:

You're trying to make a point without providing a concrete solution.

 

Its hard to give a general rule against Radar Cruisers/Hydro DDs. Ranked is ofc far worse than Randoms because of map design and importance of caps. In Randoms u can always go for another cap or wait till the Radar Cruiser is spotted so u know where he is. In Ranked u gotta go with the place where he PROBABLY will be - with Trident its quite obivous, because he is shielded by the island but is able to radar both Caps. With a Chapa in the game i would most likely go for A cap, since the Islands work in your Favor, while B is only open space for u when u spawn south.

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14 minutes ago, Tubit101 said:

It is simply too difficult for a ship without detection capabilities to counter radar and hydro. It is clearly unbalanced. If you disagree, explain why.

 

You demand explanation, but your own logic is heavily flawed, even downright wrong. A radar ship cant spot you without beeing spotted himself. If he is behind an island and has no LoS to be spotted - in 99 from 100 cases he cant shoot you either. Cuz of the island. A DD with Hydro has a lower Hydrorange then his own spotting range. So there can only be 2 options: he is spotted or he sits in his some. What do we do with stationary targets sitting in the smoke...?

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3 minutes ago, Tubit101 said:

Even if the Loyang was alone, he would still get a lot of hits in without me being able to do anything at all. It is simply too difficult for a ship without detection capabilities to counter radar and hydro. It is clearly unbalanced. If you disagree, explain why. But yes, not being able to discern the source of the detection ability is clearly also another problem which puts the receiving party at an unfair disadvantage.

The basic counter to radar and hydro is to not get in range of it, and if you do at least make sure that the source is also being spotted by you.

 

Radar has long range, but the ship using it is easier to spot and avoid. Hydro is shorter range but can be carried by stealthier ships. But I'm pretty sure there are no ships with a longer hydro range than detection range. So as long as you don't put smoke between you and them you should be able to fight them on equal terms.

Both are only really effective when they are not expected. A DD sneaking up on another DD in smoke and using hydro or a cruiser staying undetected behind land for unsuspecting ships to wander into range.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that radar is a really bad mechanic. Not because it's hard to avoid and not get caught out by it, but because it makes battles more stand-offish and static.

If we want dynamic battles then having large "no sail zones" for DDs and stealthy cruisers is not a good thing.

Hydro is completely fine though. It's so short range that the user has to be within spotting range and most of the time be very aggressive to use it against other ships.

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To reiterate: A Loyang can effectively do this; without any counter - unless you're another Loyang: Lock down a cap zone and cripple an opposing DD who has no chance to fight back. Do you agree that this is a problem and an unfair advantage to the Loyang? If not, please explain why. That's what we're talking about here.

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1 minute ago, Tubit101 said:

To reiterate: A Loyang can effectively do this; without any counter - unless you're another Loyang: Lock down a cap zone and cripple an opposing DD who has no chance to fight back. Do you agree that this is a problem and an unfair advantage to the Loyang? If not, please explain why. That's what we're talking about here.

Please explain the situation, because I don't understand how a Lo Yang can "lock down" a cap without sitting in smoke in the middle of the cap.

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3 minutes ago, Tubit101 said:

To reiterate: A Loyang can effectively do this; without any counter - unless you're another Loyang: Lock down a cap zone and cripple an opposing DD who has no chance to fight back. Do you agree that this is a problem and an unfair advantage to the Loyang? If not, please explain why. That's what we're talking about here.

 

You have been given answers to that... I count 3 ppl. If you chose to ignore it, it wont make them go away. You got killed in ranked. you are pissed and want to vent. we get it.

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13 minutes ago, Nechrom said:

Please explain the situation, because I don't understand how a Lo Yang can "lock down" a cap without sitting in smoke in the middle of the cap.

Really? What's the diameter of a cap zone? Does he really need to sit in the middle of a cap in order to hydro the whole thing? It certainly doesn't feel that way to me. I'd also like to mention that the Loyang has the option to move into a cap zone when he sees it being capped, pop smoke and hydro and automatically gain the advantage over the opposing DD.

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I couldn't rank out with a Lo Yang yet I could in a Harekaze.

 

Hydro doesn't make you invincible or give you an automatic win button. If you know a Lo Yang is contesting a cap behind an island then maybe don't go there.

 

Skill is the I win button not Hydro :Smile_child:

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9 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

You have been given answers to that... I count 3 ppl. If you chose to ignore it, it wont make them go away. You got killed in ranked. you are pissed and want to vent. we get it.

The problem is that the solutions to not get hydroed is basically to stay away from the cap zone. If I can't go close to cap zones then I can't do my job as a DD. The only way to see if there's a Loyang guarding a cap zone is A: go to the cap zone and get shot at or to a lesser degree B: RPF

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3 minutes ago, Tubit101 said:

The problem is that the solutions to not get hydroed is basically to stay away from the cap zone. If I can't go close to cap zones then I can't do my job as a DD.

 

Nah the problem is, that you chose not to look at the whole picture.

First: A game has 20 min.

Second: You have a team also.

Third: As it has been said - a DD with Hydro cant follow you and stay undetected. What is making your stick in an area exactly 2,5 to 4,5 km away from the DD? waiting for 2 mins, as you have said?

Forth: You keep naming the Lo Yang only and calling it p2w, making it sound, as WG game this mechanic only to 1 DD. German DDs anyone?

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Caps dont win games. Kills do.

 

LoYang can't do anything Benson can also do, as long as you do not fight on her terms. Benson also got one gun advantage if I am not mistaken.

 

Dont camp in your smoke, dont attack her smoke and you are good.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Tubit101 said:

The problem is that the solutions to not get hydroed is basically to stay away from the cap zone. If I can't go close to cap zones then I can't do my job as a DD.

 

Ok there are options: As i said DONT take B! B is the cap with the advantage for the Loyang, but if u have to go B i think there are options what i would do:

 

https://www.pic-upload.de/view-34737720/trident.jpg.html

 

Wait till the Enemy enter the Cap first, so u KNOW if something is coming. if he isnt capping, noone is gaining/losing anything. That means: Go wide, with a Chapa, Stay away from the center island also. If u know he is in the cap, approach at flat angle (red line, keep spotting distance OUTSIDE of the boundaries of the cap) because u will spot him too, and u dont get trapped in his hydro because u can immediately turn out. Maybe he smokes/pops his Hydro. If he does that, u can send torps his way. That will make him leave his smoke! At that point u are able to outspot him beyond his Hydro range.

If he WOULDNT go to the cap, i would most likely go wide and possible reverse from behind the Island. If something hydros u, accelerate and go back behind the Island (green line)

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2 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Nah the problem is, that you chose not to look at the whole picture.

First: A game has 20 min.

Second: You have a team also.

Third: As it has been said - a DD with Hydro cant follow you and stay undetected. What is making your stick in an area exactly 2,5 to 4,5 km away from the DD? waiting for 2 mins, as you have said?

Forth: You keep naming the Lo Yang only and calling it p2w, making it sound, as WG game this mechanic only to 1 DD. German DDs anyone?

Isn't the German DD largely considered inferior to the Loyang, or is it just coincidence that the amount of Loyangs is staggering when compared to the amount of German DDs in ranked?

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