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Arnianor

Radar and Tier V & VI

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[SM0KE] Verblonde
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When was chaff invented? I know we (the Brits) certainly dropped it from bombers later in the war.

With a bit of historical liberty taking, you could perhaps have a chaff consumable running in parallel to radar, that acts much like a smoke screen, but only for radar. Presumably, this isn't an original idea though...

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[_MIA_] DFens_666
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4 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

The game works well at T3-7 without radars, in fact it works (in many peoples eyes) better than at T8-10, so what's special about T8-10 that means that radars improve it and how?

 

- Mistakes arent punished as badly.

- BB range is far lower combined with less turrets/barrels (in general) with worse dispersion, means u cant get punished from the other side of the map.

- Dieing early means massive credit losses, at that instance it doesnt matter too much if u use Prem acc when u dont live long enough to make any.

- Look at T10 ships compared to T6 f.e. Montana, Minotaur, DM... they are pretty crazy in the right hands.Compare what u have from T5-T7, f.e. the DPM difference, or accuracy difference. NM has same amount of guns than Montana, but Montana is capable of eating Cruisers at basicly any range, while NM is a shotgun.

 

- Hightier DDs have more torps, which means they have the possibility of punishing other DDs/Cruisers better than on lower tiers. Torps are a bit faster usually. I wouldnt say they punish BBs more, since we all know how much hightier BBs receive damage from torps :Smile-_tongue:

- Radar gives the possibility to spot enemy DDs even when your own DDs are playing like selfish bastards.

- Radar adds complexity to the game, meaning u cant just go ANYWHERE and expect to get away with it.

 

Thats for me the reasons why hightier differs so much from lowertiers.

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8 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

 do you remember what i told about r.tarded Dds which go all the way around behind the enemy instead of capping? We have one of them here i guess. no point of trying to explain anything to him. he is not capable enough to get what you have been saying. Let him live in his small whiny world. :Smile_child:

 

Agree.

 

9 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

So a slightly different question:

 

The game works well at T3-7 without radars, in fact it works (in many peoples eyes) better than at T8-10, so what's special about T8-10 that means that radars improve it and how?

 

I dont think you can answer the question like this... Cuz you would acknowledge, that the only difference between those tiers is radar, which it isnt. Its one factor among many. The ships are so different, there are many on the higher Tiers, that will punish any missplay instantly heavily (Montana, Des Moines, Minotaur..), DDs get better stealth and hae no access to a huge number of long-range torpedos (Shima, Gearing etc), which is compeltly different on lower tiers. Its basically en entire different Meta. You could even talk about the maps and ofc the way, CVs influence the game on lower vs higher tiers.

 

I think it was @Negativvv a few days ago, who said in another topic something like "ppl learn, that if they play too aggressiv, they will die quick, so thats why they get more careful / campy as they advance to the higher tiers". And that is certainly one thing, that influences the way, ppl play.

 

A few days ago, I had a T9 game with 0 Radars on the enemy team. I did pay attention to that and even mentioned it in the chat. Also, we had Shima+Lo Yang - enemys only had Khaba. This would have been a game, that according to that logic, should have been an anwesome aggressiv game for our side, cuz our DDs could roam free. Yet, the Shima never capped - matter of fact, he killed 2 of our ships (including the Lo Yang) with 20 km long range torps. So, how could that go wrong? If you gonna say "individual missplay". Yep. But same goes for everything else, what we see happening. Why we see DDs smoking & stopping, when they face a Lo Yang or german DD? Or matter of fact - face a Cruiser with Radar? Cuz those ppl do not understand core game mechanics. Should this behavoir be catered to? This question has been asked many times before, in different kind of topics, with the goal to lower the skillbar. And the answer - as usualy - is No.
 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

- Mistakes arent punished as badly.

- BB range is far lower combined with less turrets/barrels (in general) with worse dispersion, means u cant get punished from the other side of the map.

- Dieing early means massive credit losses, at that instance it doesnt matter too much if u use Prem acc when u dont live long enough to make any.

- Look at T10 ships compared to T6 f.e. Montana, Minotaur, DM... they are pretty crazy in the right hands.Compare what u have from T5-T7, f.e. the DPM difference, or accuracy difference. NM has same amount of guns than Montana, but Montana is capable of eating Cruisers at basicly any range, while NM is a shotgun.

 

Thats for me the reasons why hightier differs so much from lowertiers.

 

None of which is affected by radar or provides a reason for radar to be in the game at those tiers.

 

Well except for dying early, which is what radar does to DD, so surely that's a reason for it not to be in the game.

 

 

6 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

- Hightier DDs have more torps, which means they have the possibility of punishing other DDs/Cruisers better than on lower tiers. Torps are a bit faster usually. I wouldnt say they punish BBs more, since we all know how much hightier BBs receive damage from torps :Smile-_tongue:

 

No they don't.

 

There is exactly 1 DD with "more torps", everything else has pretty much the same numbers from T5 up to T10.  They're a bit faster but in return BB get much stronger TPS.

 

 

10 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

- Radar gives the possibility to spot enemy DDs even when your own DDs are playing like selfish bastards.

 

More DD at higher tiers than at the middle, so selfish DD are less of a problem.

 

In fact radar punishes DD that play the objective and encorages selfish DD, so again that's a reason for it not to be in the game.

 

 

12 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

- Radar adds complexity to the game, meaning u cant just go ANYWHERE and expect to get away with it.

 

Why is this a good thing?  Why is this a good thing at T8-10 and not T5-7?

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1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

Why is this a good thing?  Why is this a good thing at T8-10 and not T5-7?

 

Radar starting from T5? Sounds like a plan. Ppl could get used to it more. Im in for that.

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[SM0KE] Verblonde
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Newbie question: why is radar viewed as so much nastier than hydro? Is it simply the range, or something more complex?

 

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2 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

there are many on the higher Tiers, that will punish any missplay instantly heavily (Montana, Des Moines, Minotaur..),

 

So on the basis of BB and cruisers being increadibly powerful, there needs to be a tool to counter DD?

 

 

3 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

DDs get better stealth and hae no access to a huge number of long-range torpedos (Shima, Gearing etc), which is compeltly different on lower tiers

 

That's two ships out of 26, name me another please.

 

Not forgetting of course the extremely long reload time for those two ships.

 

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1 minute ago, Verblonde said:

Newbie question: why is radar viewed as so much nastier than hydro? Is it simply the range, or something more complex?

 

I couldnt answer that... Personally, when I play DD, Hydro is more annoying, cuz its a mechanic that can deny me otherwise almost certain damage. Also, Hydro on some ships is, when used in the right situation, a complete gamechanger and a "I win" mechanic. This would be german DDs and the Lo Yang f.e.

 

Just now, Capra76 said:

So on the basis of BB and cruisers being increadibly powerful, there needs to be a tool to counter DD?

 

Well, I only listed those 3 as an example, to show, what I mean. Its not limited to those.

 

1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

That's two ships out of 26, name me another please.

 

We can all browse the wiki and draw conclusions from that. I dont think we need to quote stats of ships back and forth.

 

The thing is - there is also a development in DDs. Compare the Farragut with the Gearing (or Fletcher for that matter - same goes for the other DDs lines). Farragut like Gearing has a base concealment of 7,56 km. Needless to say, Gearing can (and usualy will) slot the concealment module. But the torps arent 2x4 with 6,4 km anymore but 2x5 with 16,5 km range. Since you have stated so many question, answer me this one: Why do you think, DDs need to have the capability to roam free with stealth torps on T8/T9+ and can not have it on T7-? Why is a counter - which still doenst stop them from stealth torping btw - just to make that clear - not ok?

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10 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

None of which is affected by radar or provides a reason for radar to be in the game at those tiers.

 

Well except for dying early, which is what radar does to DD, so surely that's a reason for it not to be in the game.

The question was: Why is the game working better at T5-7 than T8-10. With your "radar doesnt affect my points" u actually are insinuating that Radar is the fault for being bad - my arguement was pointing out why its NOT Radar but other reasons.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

No they don't.

There is exactly 1 DD with "more torps", everything else has pretty much the same numbers from T5 up to T10.  They're a bit faster but in return BB get much stronger TPS.

Mutuski has 2x3 launchers f.e. The reload for a single strike is irrelevant in that sense. A onestrike capability of a BB is far higher than that of other ships, yet they have higher reload. IN a situation where i can shoot only once the reload is mostly irrelevant.

Certain hightier IJN DDs have Torpedo reload booster, so they have more torps. DDs from T6 on have 2x4, T5 has 2x3.

Nicholas has 4x3, but without the capability of stealth torping (kinda, its possible sure), they are YOLO/last defense measure. Hightier USN DDs got 2x5, but can stealth torp.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

More DD at higher tiers than at the middle, so selfish DD are less of a problem.

In fact radar punishes DD that play the objective and encorages selfish DD, so again that's a reason for it not to be in the game.

Nope, they dont understand if there is Radar ships or CVs in the game. They play always the same. They as in most players. Most of them take either the same cap always, or the cap closest to their spawn. They rush in no matter if they are Toptier in a T8 DD without Radar or lowtier with 3 Radar ships. They rush the cap without hiding possibilites even when a CV is around. They rush into Missouri Radar range despite it having worse concealment.

While the arguement is logical, it doesnt work for WoWs sadly. Otherwise they would play more cautious.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Why is this a good thing?  Why is this a good thing at T8-10 and not T5-7?

 

Because DDs are getting potentially deadlier with better concealment. U cant take sealclubbers with 10+ pt cptn into account however. Still T8+ ships get the Concealment Mod, so a bonus right there. DDs get bigger, yet their concealment doesnt rise basicly. So why shouldnt Cruiser get better Consumables?

When DDs have limited (not stealth) Torpedo range Hydro works as good as Radar on higher tiers basicly.

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[SM0KE] Verblonde
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13 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

I couldnt answer that... Personally, when I play DD, Hydro is more annoying, cuz its a mechanic that can deny me otherwise almost certain damage. Also, Hydro on some ships is, when used in the right situation, a complete gamechanger and a "I win" mechanic. This would be german DDs and the Lo Yang f.e.

 

I'm still new + rubbish, but I find hydro to be more useful (especially when it's longer duration, or longer ranged) to me than radar; quite apart from anything else, hydro gives you extra warning of incoming torps.

I assumed it was simply because I was doing radar wrong, or missing something...

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4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Well, I only listed those 3 as an example, to show, what I mean. Its not limited to those.

 

But none of those 3 are DD, so let me have 3 that are please.

 

 

4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

We can all browse the wiki and draw conclusions from that. I dont think we need to quote stats of ships back and forth.

 

The correct answer is Yueyang, if you call 13.5 km "long range". 

 

 

7 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

The thing is - there is also a development in DDs. Compare the Farragut with the Gearing (or Fletcher for that matter - same goes for the other DDs lines). Farragut like Gearing has a base concealment of 7,56 km. Needless to say, Gearing can (and usualy will) slot the concealment module. But the torps arent 2x4 with 6,4 km anymore but 2x5 with 16,5 km range.

 

Again one ship, and you're comparing it to possibly the least stealthy DD in the game.

 

Also T10 is more powerful than T6?  Well :etc_swear: me who would've thought that.

 

 

12 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Why do you think, DDs need to have the capability to roam free with stealth torps on T8/T9+ and can not have it on T7-? Why is a counter - which still doenst stop them from stealth torping btw - just to make that clear - not ok?

 

Erm, the premis for that question is just plain wrong, most of the T5-7 DD are as stealthy as T9/10 equivilents (with concealment module fitted) apart from one or two outliers (USN + KM) that are focused in other areas. 

 

Off the top of my head the best T10 are at 5.9 km, my Kamikaze goes down to 5.4 km, the Fushun goes down to 6.2 km (7 km base), the Fubuki is the same, Hatty is lower as are all of the T5 ships.

 

Your case appears to be that DD should not be any stronger at T10 than they are at T5 (and to a significant extent they aren't), but you ignore the fact that BB get vastly more firepower, armour and HP.

 

And to answer the question "why not okay" - just count the numbers of BB in the game.

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3 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Newbie question: why is radar viewed as so much nastier than hydro? Is it simply the range, or something more complex?

Mainly range, but hydro isn't entirely non-problematic either, especially when you get to such overpowered ships like Lo Yang that has stealth, hydro, smoke, and firepower. Cruisers have to get a lot closer than if they're using radar, so it's not as much of an issue.

 

29 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

- Mistakes arent punished as badly.

- BB range is far lower combined with less turrets/barrels (in general) with worse dispersion, means u cant get punished from the other side of the map.

- Dieing early means massive credit losses, at that instance it doesnt matter too much if u use Prem acc when u dont live long enough to make any.

- Look at T10 ships compared to T6 f.e. Montana, Minotaur, DM... they are pretty crazy in the right hands.Compare what u have from T5-T7, f.e. the DPM difference, or accuracy difference. NM has same amount of guns than Montana, but Montana is capable of eating Cruisers at basicly any range, while NM is a shotgun.

 

- Hightier DDs have more torps, which means they have the possibility of punishing other DDs/Cruisers better than on lower tiers. Torps are a bit faster usually. I wouldnt say they punish BBs more, since we all know how much hightier BBs receive damage from torps :Smile-_tongue:

- Radar gives the possibility to spot enemy DDs even when your own DDs are playing like selfish bastards.

- Radar adds complexity to the game, meaning u cant just go ANYWHERE and expect to get away with it.

- If mistakes aren't punished as badly on lower tiers, why do we need yet another tool to punish mistakes at higher tiers?

- High tier maps are larger, so longer range doesn't necessarily mean better map coverage. I'm also used to playing ships like Kongou and Fuso at mid tiers, which do have great range and enough accuracy to hit cruisers at max range.

- Again, how does radar improve the game when it makes it more likely to die early when it's more costly?

- More torps, but longer reloads. Torps are faster, but so are ships, and distances are longer.

- DDs at low and mid tiers aren't selfish bastards?

- Radar adds complexity to DDs, while WG has consistently removed complexity for BBs, which were already easier to play than anything else. Radar also removes complexity for cruisers. Why is it okay to always add more skill requirements for DDs but remove it for everything else?

 

4 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Nope, they dont understand if there is Radar ships or CVs in the game. They play always the same. They as in most players. Most of them take either the same cap always, or the cap closest to their spawn. They rush in no matter if they are Toptier in a T8 DD without Radar or lowtier with 3 Radar ships. They rush the cap without hiding possibilites even when a CV is around. They rush into Missouri Radar range despite it having worse concealment.

While the arguement is logical, it doesnt work for WoWs sadly. Otherwise they would play more cautious.

DDs are more cautious in higher tiers. Certainly not everyone, but in general. They don't always play the same as they do on lower tiers.

 

6 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Because DDs are getting potentially deadlier with better concealment. U cant take sealclubbers with 10+ pt cptn into account however. Still T8+ ships get the Concealment Mod, so a bonus right there. DDs get bigger, yet their concealment doesnt rise basicly. So why shouldnt Cruiser get better Consumables?

When DDs have limited (not stealth) Torpedo range Hydro works as good as Radar on higher tiers basicly.

Hydro compared to radar is 5-6 km to 10-12 km, so twice the range. Do DDs get that much better concealment? Hydro is also comparable to DD concealment; radar is not. Should all DDs therefore get twice the torpedo range?Cruisers can also slot the concealment mod, and their concealment doesn't change much either. So if DDs don't get any additional stealth advantage, what consumables do they get that's better? The only one I can think of is defensive AA for a select few DDs, at the cost of speed boost.

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2 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I assumed it was simply because I was doing radar wrong, or missing something...

 

I play a lot of radarships and I can tell you this much: its highly situational. Also, its often a complete teamplay mechanic. Where as Hydro will be used for yourself and as a bonus can spot torps for your team, you often want to give your team the advantage from your radar, cuz you couldnt make use of it. F.e. you will be next to an island, where you know, an enemy DD is in radarrange. If I would push out myself, enemy BBs would blabb most likely blabb me before I could take out the DD. So you use radar, mark the DD as a target, and hope, your team takes it out. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. The real 1vs1 situations, Radarcruiser vs DD, are rare. If they happen, its either a misspositioned DD with no backup or very late in the game.

 

6 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

But none of those 3 are DD, so let me have 3 that are please.

 

*sigh* I was explaining the differences in Meta. Go back, read again. How do you manage to quote a part of that without reading what Ive said before and after that?

 

7 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Again one ship

 

Do you understand the concept of an example? You want me to compare each and every ship cuz - as I said again before that - you arent capable of looking up facts? dude?

 

 

8 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

but you ignore the fact that BB get vastly more firepower, armour and HP.

 

I literally said the exact opposite. But since you ignored it earlier, here you go again:

 

49 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

The ships are so different, there are many on the higher Tiers, that will punish any missplay instantly heavily (Montana, Des Moines, Minotaur..)

 

Are we having a serious discussion here or is this some kind of "lets ignore what the other said & quote me the entire wiki from wows, else I wont believe a word you say" thing going on?

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5 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

- If mistakes aren't punished as badly on lower tiers, why do we need yet another tool to punish mistakes at higher tiers?

- High tier maps are larger, so longer range doesn't necessarily mean better map coverage. I'm also used to playing ships like Kongou and Fuso at mid tiers, which do have great range and enough accuracy to hit cruisers at max range.

- Again, how does radar improve the game when it makes it more likely to die early when it's more costly?

- More torps, but longer reloads. Torps are faster, but so are ships, and distances are longer.

- DDs at low and mid tiers aren't selfish bastards?

- Radar adds complexity to DDs, while WG has consistently removed complexity for BBs, which were already easier to play than anything else. Radar also removes complexity for cruisers. Why is it okay to always add more skill requirements for DDs but remove it for everything else?

- How are DDs punished by anything else? Cruisers are punished by more accurate/Turret BBs who are capable of devastating you beyond your own fireing range. Despite u saying that Kongo and Fuso can do this - yes they can, its highly unlikely. I almost oneshotted a Kirow with my Kongo at 22km once, still it doesnt prove anything. Hightier BBs can do it much better than midtier BBs. Adding to this ships like Bayern simply dont even have the range...

- DDs dieing to other DDs early is basicly the only other options. But i can see its hard looking at the other side :cap_like:With the amount *cogh* of CVs, 8 out of 10 games DDs would be free to do whatever they want. And then u get DefAA DDs who can defend themselves better vs a CV.

- I thought ppl are camping? surely u can hit stationary targets :cap_book: Also Ships get more clumsy and cant avoid torps as good as lower tier ships.

- Low/midtier DDs have to take more risks in torping, thus can be detected simply by getting too close. No need for Radar. Sealclubbers cant be the benchmark here.

- Not my fault - and im argueing heavily against BBs anyway. Cruisers are hard enough to play as it is. Look at your own stats, they support that claim pretty good.

 

 

5 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

DDs are more cautious in higher tiers. Certainly not everyone, but in general. They don't always play the same as they do on lower tiers.

U cant look at yourself when u are playing to different situations. Since u are mainly playing DD, its probably harder to recognize. Playing Cruisers on hightiers, i have to rely on my DDs to do the right thing. If they do stupid things, i cant help them.

 

 

5 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Hydro compared to radar is 5-6 km to 10-12 km, so twice the range. Do DDs get that much better concealment? Hydro is also comparable to DD concealment; radar is not. Should all DDs therefore get twice the torpedo range?Cruisers can also slot the concealment mod, and their concealment doesn't change much either. So if DDs don't get any additional stealth advantage, what consumables do they get that's better? The only one I can think of is defensive AA for a select few DDs, at the cost of speed boost.

 

Ehm... look at torpranges? As far as im concearned, my Karlsruhe Hydro is not twice of that my Hindenburgs...

Radar doesnt spot TOrps either. And there are DDs who have more than  twice the torprange that Low tier DDs. Or atleast reasonably more range (50% more)

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5 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Hydro compared to radar is 5-6 km to 10-12 km, so twice the range. Do DDs get that much better concealment? Hydro is also comparable to DD concealment; radar is not. Should all DDs therefore get twice the torpedo range?Cruisers can also slot the concealment mod, and their concealment doesn't change much either. So if DDs don't get any additional stealth advantage, what consumables do they get that's better? The only one I can think of is defensive AA for a select few DDs, at the cost of speed boost.

So, if you consider 20-30.seconds of radar, with several minutes of cooldown, on very visible cruiser such a gamebraker.

Then, by this logic,why does DD have several minutes of smoke per recharge?They are already stealthy, why do they have something that, by just a push of the button, gets their consilement down to 2.km for nearly two minutes. Would not 20.seconds of smoke, with several minutes of recharge, be enought? 

 

Maybe, this is the answer, with short duration smoke, the DD will, maybe, actually notice that massive Donskoie, with 15.km of consilement, heading his way. Before Donskoie can sneek- up into radar range.

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8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

- How are DDs punished by anything else?

So at higher tiers, they suddenly get immune to everything except radar? DDs also take more damage quicker compared to at lower tiers. Radar only adds to it.

 

8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

- Low/midtier DDs have to take more risks in torping, thus can be detected simply by getting too close. No need for Radar.

As you've already detailed, the risks of being detected are less significant at lower tiers. Yes, not as many of them has as long range torpedoes compared to their detection, but they're also not going to be deleted as quickly if they're seen. Why do they need to be more easily punished when they're already punished worse for mistakes?

 

11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

U cant look at yourself when u are playing to different situations. Since u are mainly playing DD, its probably harder to recognize.

Mainly playing DDs doesn't mean only playing DDs. When I play cruisers and battleships, I see more passive DDs at high tiers compared to low and mid tiers.

 

14 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Ehm... look at torpranges? As far as im concearned, my Karlsruhe Hydro is not twice of that my Hindenburgs...

Radar doesnt spot TOrps either. And there are DDs who have more than  twice the torprange that Low tier DDs. Or atleast reasonably more range (50% more)

I compared hydro range with radar range, since you said cruisers deserved better consumables.

 

No, radar doesn't spot torps, but cruisers can still slot hydro along with radar.

 

All DDs are affected by radar, so more than some DDs should have twice the torpedo range. That said, my opinion about torpedoes is that gunboats shouldn't have as good torpedoes as torpedoboats, despite that being more or less the case currently

11 minutes ago, mariouus said:

So, if you consider 20-30.seconds of radar, with several minutes of cooldown, on very visible cruiser such a gamebraker.

Then, by this logic,why does DD have several minutes of smoke per recharge?They are already stealthy, why do they have something that, by just a push of the button, gets their consilement down to 2.km for nearly two minutes. Would not 20.seconds of smoke, with several minutes of recharge, be enought? 

 

Maybe, this is the answer, with short duration smoke, the DD will, maybe, actually notice that massive Donskoie, with 15.km of consilement, heading his way. Before Donskoie can sneek- up into radar range.

No, I don't consider radar a gamebreaker as such. I consider it a consumable that makes the game worse by how it functions, and more importantly, how it affects the meta.

 

If you really wanted to crack down on the smoke meta, radar isn't the solution. Nerfing smoke is. So I agree. DDs don't really need as good smokes as they currently have. That's a much better solution. If they remove radar, I'm perfectly fine with nerfing smoke.

 

Donskoi's concealment is only barely shorter than the radar range, if you spec for it (which you should). Forgot the number, but around 13 km, with 12 km radar? There are a few ships with longer radar range than detectability range, such as Chapayev.

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14 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

No, I don't consider radar a gamebreaker as such. I consider it a consumable that makes the game worse by how it functions, and more importantly, how it affects the meta.

It made game worse for only those players whose only tactics was to drives into Cap, smoke-up and wait.Before radar there was not much you can do about it. Now you can and it is a good thing for all the rest.

 

 

Donskoieie, is one of few ships who playes well whitout consilement things. You can almost never kill a good DD player with radar and against bad DD player, consilement is irrelevent. And yes, more or less less all radar cruisers can be spoted before radar range.

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37 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

*sigh* I was explaining the differences in Meta. Go back, read again. How do you manage to quote a part of that without reading what Ive said before and after that?

 

But the question was why do we need radar, and your differences in meta had nothing to do with radar or DD.

 

 

39 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Do you understand the concept of an example? You want me to compare each and every ship cuz - as I said again before that - you arent capable of looking up facts? dude?

 

Do you understand the concept of cherry picking?  You are picking the most extreme example possible and then pretending that is representative of every ship in the game.

 

And to repeat the point you edited out, :etc_swear:me. T10 ships are more powerful, really?

 

 

42 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

I literally said the exact opposite. But since you ignored it earlier, here you go again:

 

You were using the power increase from Farragut to Gearing as justification for radar and the paragraph you quote was from a different post made some 20 minutes or so previous.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, mariouus said:

It made game worse for only those players whose only tactics was to drives into Cap, smoke-up and wait.Before radar there was not much you can do about it. Now you can and it is a good thing for all the rest.

 

Let me get this right.  You think that playing for the objectives is a bad thing?

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1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

You were using the power increase from Farragut to Gearing as justification for radar

 

Nope. that is again what you are implying. Again, read my first answer to you. The game isnt build around Radar & DDs only. If you ignore the rest around it - there is no use in talking.

 

2 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

and the paragraph you quote was from a different post made some 20 minutes or so previous.

 

Do we start on a clean sheet after every post? Do you forget what has been said eariler? seriously? Maybe you shouldnt take part in discussions then - seriously!

 

 

3 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Do you understand the concept of cherry picking?

 

It is not cherry picking. Its facts, proving my initial point of view, which you a) first didnt want to understand and then b) ignored and now c) try to belittle. So I can draw no other conclusion, that infact, you agree with me, but dont want to admit this, thus pulling crazy things, to try to get out of the discussion.

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Let me get this right.  You think that playing for the objectives is a bad thing?

If you consider it playing for the objective, or playing at all. 

 

What those players actually do, is smoke up, even If they do not have to, so they can not see anything, nor can anybody unfortunate enought to be behind them. And then just sit there, even If it is obvoius that there is somebody else in the cap. Before the radar there was little you could to about it. Expect a wild suicide run. Or park your ship in the same Cap. Or, to But it

into other words, camp. 

 

Now, their fun and engaging playstyle is what gets them killed. They smoke for no real reason, so they signal their approx. position and range to enemy radar ship. They are smoked up, so they can not see it coming (and because they but there smoke infront of allies,no-one can), while in reality they could out-spot any radar cruiser. They are stationary, so easy target. And because they are the closest ship to enemy, at the moment they die, their own smoke consiles the culprit.

 

I am no destroyer player, but I can see several ways how to still play objective and ...well...not do that.

 

  • Cool 3

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1 hour ago, mariouus said:

It made game worse for only those players whose only tactics was to drives into Cap, smoke-up and wait.Before radar there was not much you can do about it. Now you can and it is a good thing for all the rest.

Those players are easily countered by other DDs, who will invariably torp that smoke. That's one of the easiest counters in the game. Those players are not the issue, though. The issue is that fewer DDs are willing to cap in the first place, because if a radar cruiser shows up they will die or lose a ton of health. That's regardless of if they actually show up or not; the threat is enough to discourage people from playing the objectives.

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26 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Before the radar there was little you could to about it.

 

Except launch torpedoes into the smoke or support a friendly DD pushing into the cap and if the enemy DD is stupid enough to stay there he's going to have a very short game.

 

I mean we don't have radar below T8 (2 exceptions, 1 of which is the most OP ship in the game) and they seem to cope just fine, so is there something special about T8-10 that makes this utterly :etc_swear: retarded tactic work at T10 when it doesn't work at lower tiers.

 

 

32 minutes ago, mariouus said:

I am no destroyer player

 

I see a pattern emerging.

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4 hours ago, Capra76 said:

So a slightly different question:

 

The game works well at T3-7 without radars, in fact it works (in many peoples eyes) better than at T8-10, so what's special about T8-10 that means that radars improve it and how?

Game works weill at tier 7?LOL its the most broken tier. If it works well at tier 7 in many peoples eyes,it means that the game works well at any tier in many peoples eyes.

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