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Arnianor

Radar and Tier V & VI

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Hello everyone.

I understand the value of radar in ranked, or clan battle. However, in random battle, I think there is a little problem with it. Due to the -2/+2, it gives the possibility that tier V and VI dd are faced against radar of tier VII and VIII repectively.

And here's the issue: a tier VII Indianapolis has a Radar range of 9.9km. The lower radar range at tier VII is 8.49km. The smaller radius is bigger than any tier V DD's torpedo range with upgrade, while the 9.9 radius is wider than any non-upgraded dd's gun fireing range, save the nicholas. As a result, a tier V dd can be under radar without ANY possiblity to fight back.

The most blatant example of this would be the minekaze, with base 8.1 km guns, 7km torpedoes, if he gets under Indianapolis' radar at 8.3km, he's under serious threat. With the tier difference, there's only 5 knots in speed difference between them, so if you're getting chased, good luck getting out of that radar before it's duration is over. And you just can't fire back. Or you rush your ennemy, hoping to take 1 with you to your certain death.

So maybe, just maybe, something should be done to fix this situation. Like, give those dd a possibility to fight back. Or change radar for random battle. Or reduce it's range, lots of players are complaining about it anyway ?

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or just avoid radar cruisers in the first place playing a DD

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3 minutes ago, Arnianor said:

And here's the issue: a tier VII Indianapolis has a Radar range of 9.9km. The lower radar range at tier VII is 8.49km. The smaller radius is bigger than any tier V DD's torpedo range with upgrade, while the 9.9 radius is wider than any non-upgraded dd's gun fireing range, save the nicholas. As a result, a tier V dd can be under radar without ANY possiblity to fight back.

This is nowhere near as much of a difference (compared to higher tiers) as you make it out to be. You see, even if your torp range was ~10km, this really isn't the distance you want to torp from, ESPECIALLY when trying to torp a cruiser (since you're talking about "fighting back"). In fact, even at the edge of detection it generally takes a significant misplay from a cruiser to eat torps.

 

The reality is that you really, REALLY don't want to "fight back" against cruisers two tiers above you that have Radar. The solution is to

a) Spot them for things that do want to fight them (most Radar cruisers are pretty vulnerable to BB bombardment)

or

b) Avoid them, seek out other targets or just focus on spotting if there is too many Radars to close in for an effective attack

 

It also helps to be mindful of enemy ships that have clear line of fire to you (especially from relatively close) and the venues of retreat. T7-8 Radar doesn't last all that long - unless you misplayed and tried to smoke up in bad position, it usually shouldn't be too hard to get through the ordeal of being Radared: it takes time for enemies to aim at you, if you always have a rout of escape ready, you can be pretty damn hard to hit, nevermind kill, in the short time window provided by these Radars.

 

It also helps that Radar cruisers usually save the Radar for situations where they eiither have good basis for suspecting that there's a DD in range (and vulnerable position) OR for sitations where they are REALLY scared of an ambush of some sort. It's often not that hard to get relatively close... of course, if you ARE spotted, even briefly, or if you avoid being spotted by popping smoke - Radar is almost sure to follow. After all, at that moment the cruiser knows for certain where you are.

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I would rather meet radar cruisers sooner than later in the hope that I'd learn how to anticipate and deal with them when I get to higher tiers. I'm not pretending to be any good at that now but at least I'm becoming aware of when to push a cap and when's best to go wide and spot for my CAs and BBs.

 

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While I do agree that radars are stupid and needs to git gone, I find the radar cruisers so rare for T5 ships it's not really much of an issue. Minekaze is also reasonably fast and nimble.

 

2 hours ago, hgbn_dk said:

or just avoid radar cruisers in the first place playing a DD

2 hours ago, eliastion said:

b) Avoid them, seek out other targets or just focus on spotting if there is too many Radars to close in for an effective attack

And this is why radar promotes passive gameplay and makes the game worse. People encourage anyone facing radar to camp harder. It might not be what's meant, but it is the effect.

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8 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

And this is why radar promotes passive gameplay and makes the game worse. People encourage anyone facing radar to camp harder. It might not be what's meant, but it is the effect.

 

Amen!

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Even if I dont agree with +-2 MM (im strongly supporting +-1) I dont think radar ships pose an unbeatable threat. 

Just use the islands so the radar runs out and attack when on cool down.

 

There are multiple times where I deliberately show myself to radar ship, just to trigger its radar (with an escape route planned).

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25 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

Even if I dont agree with +-2 MM (im strongly supporting +-1) I dont think radar ships pose an unbeatable threat. 

Just use the islands so the radar runs out and attack when on cool down.

 

There are multiple times where I deliberately show myself to radar ship, just to trigger its radar (with an escape route planned).

This ^

 Great advise for the Op..

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10 hours ago, Arnianor said:

Hello everyone.

I understand the value of radar in ranked, or clan battle. However, in random battle, I think there is a little problem with it. Due to the -2/+2, it gives the possibility that tier V and VI dd are faced against radar of tier VII and VIII repectively.

And here's the issue: a tier VII Indianapolis has a Radar range of 9.9km. The lower radar range at tier VII is 8.49km. The smaller radius is bigger than any tier V DD's torpedo range with upgrade, while the 9.9 radius is wider than any non-upgraded dd's gun fireing range, save the nicholas. As a result, a tier V dd can be under radar without ANY possiblity to fight back.

The most blatant example of this would be the minekaze, with base 8.1 km guns, 7km torpedoes, if he gets under Indianapolis' radar at 8.3km, he's under serious threat. With the tier difference, there's only 5 knots in speed difference between them, so if you're getting chased, good luck getting out of that radar before it's duration is over. And you just can't fire back. Or you rush your ennemy, hoping to take 1 with you to your certain death.

So maybe, just maybe, something should be done to fix this situation. Like, give those dd a possibility to fight back. Or change radar for random battle. Or reduce it's range, lots of players are complaining about it anyway ?

In case you did not notice, you do not fight back when under radar. You get the heck out of there!!

Focus all your attention on evading enemy shots or getting behind hard cover.

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10 hours ago, Arnianor said:

The most blatant example of this would be the minekaze, with base 8.1 km guns, 7km torpedoes, if he gets under Indianapolis' radar at 8.3km, he's under serious threat. With the tier difference, there's only 5 knots in speed difference between them, so if you're getting chased, good luck getting out of that radar before it's duration is over. And you just can't fire back.

In addition to what everyone else said, take your minekaze out in a training room versus a non-active bot in Indianopolis.

Try to gun him down and inform us how useful your guns felt.

 

Hint: bring something to read while you're doing that.

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8 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

While I do agree that radars are stupid and needs to git gone, I find the radar cruisers so rare for T5 ships it's not really much of an issue. Minekaze is also reasonably fast and nimble.

 

And this is why radar promotes passive gameplay and makes the game worse. People encourage anyone facing radar to camp harder. It might not be what's meant, but it is the effect.

Have to disagree with that. Nothing prevents you as a DD player facing a radar cruiser near a cap to chose another cap to contest. Or just out spot the said cruiser for the big guns to handle.

 

Radar in general is not a camping tool. Its a counter to passive smoked up meta. like facing UK cruisers. It promote aggressive play style for the team who do have the Radar ship.

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To fix this problem,  we probably need to buff Kamikaze...

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Now, I'll admit I didn't check if the game works exactly like mathematics says it should.

But in a chase at a 5 knots difference in speed, going the same direction, you'd need about 6 minutes to gain 1 km on your opponent. 

Now, as you're likely to turn a lot to avoid being shot, it's uncertain you'll have 5 knots more than opponent. 

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12 hours ago, Arnianor said:

And here's the issue: a tier VII Indianapolis has a Radar range of 9.9km.

 

I can basicly understand the reasoning behind your arguement, but atleast for Indianapolis it cant be translated into the game. I have lots of games especially at T7, and i dont remember seeing Indianapolis often. All in all its not that good of a ship, and it also cant use Radar once it is detected, unlike Belfast. Belfast on the other hand has major advantages over other Radar ships, and that is Concealment = Radar range + Smoke. Where other radar ships would maybe struggle, he can just smoke up and get undetected.

 

54 minutes ago, hgbn_dk said:

Have to disagree with that. Nothing prevents you as a DD player facing a radar cruiser near a cap to chose another cap to contest. Or just out spot the said cruiser for the big guns to handle.

Radar in general is not a camping tool. Its a counter to passive smoked up meta. like facing UK cruisers. It promote aggressive play style for the team who do have the Radar ship.

 

Yep... CVs are far worse than Radar ships. But ppl dont understand to behave differently when CVs are around, so i cant understand the outcry about Radar lately. The amount of DDs rushing blindly into "bad" caps when a CV is in the match is huge. Even when u tell them not to do it, they still proceed, get plane spotted and then its basicly lost already. If your own CV cant fight him off, u are dead. U can smoke up and delay the almost unavoidable.

a) the planes will hover over the smoke until it runs out

b) if u leave the smoke he will spot u again

c) enemy DDs can force u to leave the smoke with torps or kill u.

d) if there is a Radar ship he knows exactly where u are so he can pinpoint his radar on your location.

 

There are only a couple things wrong with Radar:

Belfast -> Concealment = Radar + Smoke. Having better concealment than Radar range is atleast questionable for other ships, but they cant play as aggressive as a Belfast.

Uneven amount of Radar ships between teams.

Radar on Missouri and DDs.

 

And 2 of those will never get changed...

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9 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

And this is why radar promotes passive gameplay and makes the game worse.

 

Weird. Everytime I play a radarship, I push so hard, some people would call it "overextending". Thats camping for you?

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Radar slows games down.

 

Look at Ranked this season, radar ships mean everything crawls due to the fear of being lol spotted and everyone hides behind islands or 10km+ away.

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34 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Weird. Everytime I play a radarship, I push so hard, some people would call it "overextending". Thats camping for you?

It's not that "having Radar makes you more passive". Problem is - the game is designed in such a way that DDs are generally the vanguard. When they start playing defensively (to not suffer the death by Radar), this has the impact of making the entire team more defensive. The Radar-full games tend to have a very slow start, with both teams kinda sitting back and waiting/hoping for the enemy to make a mistake first.

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3 hours ago, PzychoPanzer said:

In addition to what everyone else said, take your minekaze out in a training room versus a non-active bot in Indianopolis.

Try to gun him down and inform us how useful your guns felt.

 

Hint: bring something to read while you're doing that.

Indy? Training room?

Sorry I can't help it.

No need for that, I think my ant's .22 revolver can punch holes in Indy like the cheese it is.

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5 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

In case you did not notice, you do not fight back when under radar. You get the heck out of there!!

Focus all your attention on evading enemy shots or getting behind hard cover.

Actually, while spotted by radar there's no reason not to shoot. However, just don't shoot for too long time, since you should stop so you drop from detection once the radar ends. If it's a Russian radar, you probably shouldn't shoot, since the duration isn't that long, and you'll stay lit longer if you shoot, but if it's an American radar, you can shoot a couple of salvos, unless you're at the edge of the radar range.

 

4 hours ago, hgbn_dk said:

Have to disagree with that. Nothing prevents you as a DD player facing a radar cruiser near a cap to chose another cap to contest. Or just out spot the said cruiser for the big guns to handle.

 

Radar in general is not a camping tool. Its a counter to passive smoked up meta. like facing UK cruisers. It promote aggressive play style for the team who do have the Radar ship.

Of course it's not a camping tool. It just promotes campy gameplay by encouraging DDs to play defensively, and everyone else will follow suit. If DDs don't push, no one will, the odd yolo aside. And saying "nothing prevents..." isn't an argument. Nothing prevents BBs from following close behind their DDs, but is that what you see in matches, or do you see them camping as far back as their range allows?

 

3 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

Weird. Everytime I play a radarship, I push so hard, some people would call it "overextending". Thats camping for you?

So you play in a way people call out as a tactical error, and you try to imply that's in any way a normal way of playing? Why would you use an exception as an example for how things normally are? It's like saying, "Hey, I push in my BBs all the time, so there's no campy meta with sniping battleships in WoWs at all."

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17 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Actually, while spotted by radar there's no reason not to shoot. However, just don't shoot for too long time, since you should stop so you drop from detection once the radar ends. If it's a Russian radar, you probably shouldn't shoot, since the duration isn't that long, and you'll stay lit longer if you shoot, but if it's an American radar, you can shoot a couple of salvos, unless you're at the edge of the radar range.

And that is exactly the point. You want to stealth up as fast as possible.

You do not want to turn to bring your torpedos or more guns to bear on the radar ship, it will not make a difference. It just might get you killed.

 

If you see the radar ship and know it just started the radar and are not at the edge of the radar range, you might shoot one or two salvos if it is an US ship. But this will not make a difference either and might distract you from evading enemy fire properly.

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16 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Actually, while spotted by radar there's no reason not to shoot.

It's hardly as straightforward. As you yourself said...

1. If radared by a Russian, even a tiny bit of shooting can extend the time you're spotted.

2. If radared by an American from afar, it's possible that you can run away out of Radar's range - and, again, shooting robs you of this chance.

 

In fact the two above might well be more than half of the all incidents of being radared :Smile-_tongue:

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41 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

 Nothing prevents BBs from following close behind their DDs, but is that what you see in matches, or do you see them camping as far back as their range allows?

 

Clearly they hug the border because of Radar...

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1 hour ago, AnotherDuck said:

So you play in a way people call out as a tactical error, and you try to imply that's in any way a normal way of playing? Why would you use an exception as an example for how things normally are? It's like saying, "Hey, I push in my BBs all the time, so there's no campy meta with sniping battleships in WoWs at all."

 

Nice twisting of words. Is that your credo? You seem to do it quite often. Funny side is, that you literally say, the other team is pushing offensivly, but you talk of a "camping meta". Where is that mean radarship, pushing you out of the cap 2 mins in the game else coming from? He must be camping on A10 right? How can ppl not understand, what they are writing themself, amazing.

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3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

And that is exactly the point. You want to stealth up as fast as possible.

3 hours ago, eliastion said:

It's hardly as straightforward. As you yourself said...

Fair enough. I find that opening fire often means the opponents will get overconfident (usually an enemy DD somewhat closer than the cruiser), and I'm used to kiting and shooting at the same time. Works for me; might not work for others.

 

2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

Nice twisting of words. Is that your credo? You seem to do it quite often.

No, it's just that people don't realise what they're actually saying. And, like you, don't realise what I'm saying.

 

2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

Funny side is, that you literally say, the other team is pushing offensivly, but you talk of a "camping meta". Where is that mean radarship, pushing you out of the cap 2 mins in the game else coming from? He must be camping on A10 right? How can ppl not understand, what they are writing themself, amazing.

Where did I literally say, the other team is pushing offensively?

 

The radar ship is probably camping behind an island. There are plenty of those near the caps where you can't shoot and can't be shot. I said that exact thing in one of these threads; I don't want to repeat every single argument in every single thread. But that's not even the point. The point it that just the threat of radar causes people to play more passively. It doesn't even matter that the radar ship is 15 km away. That's still going to cause players to play more passively.

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11 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

No, it's just that people don't realise what they're actually saying.

 

The (lack of) logic and twisted logic in your posts... starts to mess with my mind. I cant even put it into words, how you are a) right with that statement b) how this statement completly reflects on you and c) you completly fail to see this.

 

As I concluded before: You dont like, that there is a counter to your DDs, that you cant control. You already have the best concealment and are faster then all other classes. Also, you have a tool, to hit enemys without any risk of getting hit yourself. I told you before - play low tier DDs. There is no radar. But then again, the torpedorange is limited. Conicidence? You still dont get it do you? Every advantage needs to come at a price. The number of torps and their range on high tiers vs. Radar. Radar is a teamplay mechanic. If the radarship in your team cant use - tough luck. Its like the DDs that you sometimes get, that dont cap and dont spot. Then the enemy caps without any counterplay (if there is no CV; they are rare anyway) Remove DDs?

 

18 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

The point it that just the threat of radar causes people to play more passively. It doesn't even matter that the radar ship is 15 km away. That's still going to cause players to play more passively.

 

Bollocks. Ppl go into my radarrange all the time. Ive radarded 3/3 DDs with my Donskoi in one of the recent rounds. And 15 km away? So in every round with radarships - nobody ever caps. right. Cuz that means "moving within 15 km to a radar ship. Again with the

20 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

people don't realise what they're actually saying.

 

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